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Can't live with them, can't live without them

Both are loosers. US is not getting anything out of the drones in the longer run as for each tactical commander they target and kill, three others crop up. For PA, resentment and the same problem.

If we really want to take the bull by the horns than we need to do this dirty job ourselves with boots on the ground.
you must be joking dude, Don't you know Talibans, Haqani network, LET, Jaish-e- muhammad etc etc are our assessts (Stupid logic of our military).

Despite massive PA deployments in FATA region. We have no control over FATA region. its like a lost territory for Pakistan. However free territory for every one elase (Uzbek, Chehins, Tajiks, Arabs, Egyptians, Talibans, ALqaida, CIA, RAW, etc etc.)
 
In all of this equation does the people who took those 40,000 lives figure??? If so than on the plus or the negative side of the equation?

Aamir Hussain,

Sir----why don't you ask this question of mAV3erick----according to him the 2 1/2 million dead muslims don't count---he don't give a rats ar-se to the dead and to their families---so how many other pakistanis think like him---.
 
After the turn of events as of yesterday (Gillani Vs Pak Fauj, was there even a need for this, as they say here, dick measuring contest?), now we all know what happens when politicians are given 'full control and authority' in Pakistan.

As once my guud friend MK said and i quote, 'give them enough rope and they will hang themselves with it'.

Re-The thing is that politicians never gets full control and authority in pakistan but at the same time they are expected to solve pakistan's problems.
 
But when army rules fails to do anything Army is not blamed but the generals gets all the blame.
Allow me to enlighten you, the Army is not blamed, rather should not be blamed because it is not the "Arm' that is ruling the country, but a "General" who endorses himself the complete authority and do whatever "he" think is right.

So the the General should be the one who gets blamed, but unfortunately people with poor comprehension merely generalize and blamed a disciplined institution for the problems.


Army is a disciplined organization, following its commander is the only logical thing once a 'take over' has taken place, or would you like your or for that any military to suffer from mutiny?

Believe me, when it comes to Armies, following a 'wrong' order is better than disobeying it.


4. Tell me which problem of pakistan is solved by army???

- Load shedding??
- Poverty??
- Unemployment??
- Corruption???
- Ethnic violence???

Again, it's not Army's job to provide Pakistani with these things, still a walk through our history will tell you that Pakistan had been faring well under the Army, oh wait, i meant Generals - almost all major achievements were made under dictatorship.

Now being specific to your question, you may like to read the following:

50 reasons Pakistan needs Musharraf – The Express Tribune Blog

5. And if zardari or shariff are corrupt or these 2 persons are the only root cause of pakistan's all the problems then why don't Army take them strictly by law or hang them and solve the problem of pakistan forever?????????
Another believer in Gen Zia's legacy, perhaps?

Though i like the suggestion, but then i would like the Pakistani people to perform it rather than the Army, oh wait again, a General doing it for them.
 
author's assertion that the military insured that the elections would be free and fair and that no one can say that the military interfered with politics.

Let me clarify by rephrasing it; '2008 elections were the fairest since the General Elections of 1970 and military's interference is on its lowest ebb since Kiyani took office.'

Things dont change over night, right?

Nevertheless, the conduct of next elections would tell us if we had learned anything, yet.

-------

Not related to the post, but can you think that our people voting on baradari system and for that matter educated lot of city like Karachi still 'loving' and longing for a guy(?) like Altaf Bhai, would yield anything if the elections are not rigged? i mean people dont vote for MQM because they think it is developed Karachi as a modern city, but rather they vote for the guy (Altaf), for some unkown reasons, one of which i am sure of is he being a Mohajir and other Mohajir like to follow him just because of the same 'ethnicity'. This syndrome is not specific to MQM, but holds guud for every political party (Nawaz, Sindhi, Punjabi, Sairaki, ANP etc).

Do you actually think that with the kind of 'kind' words that Imran has for American policies in the region, he would be a making case if 'merit' to prevails and real fair elections are conducted? How ever guud and popular Imran may become, people from interior Sindh, Pathans etc would vote for PPP and ANP respectively, come what may.

So, let's be clear, Pakistanis have yet to taste/experience what actual democracy is, and as you have very aptly pointed out; If truly we were offered a democracy we would take it.

Anywaz, whatever the case may be, i am not implying that the above excuse give the right to the establishment to manipulate the elections.

Youth as of today is cognizant of this fact and probably therefore they are going to vote for Imran, let's see when our 'older folks' and those who dont have the luxury of thinking critically understand this (how true democracy works and how to go about it).
 
Not related to the post, but can you think that our people voting on baradari system and for that matter educated lot of city like Karachi still 'loving' and longing for a guy(?) like Altaf Bhai, would yield anything if the elections are not rigged? i mean people dont vote for MQM because they think it is developed Karachi as a modern city, but rather they vote for the guy (Altaf), for some unkown reasons, one of which i am sure of is he being a Mohajir and other Mohajir like to follow him just because of the same 'ethnicity'. This syndrome is not specific to MQM, but holds guud for every political party (Nawaz, Sindhi, Punjabi, Sairaki, ANP etc).

.

sums it all up.
 
I believe after implementing reforms, we should set guide lines for the military as to when or under what circumstance coup or martial law is acceptable or necessary.

There's need to be a checks and balances system.
That's indeed the crux of my article.
 
Problem is, when it comes to holding on to their Chair.. No one remains a BadBum.. rather they all become ready to offer their behinds and give fellatio as long as they are allowed to stay in power.
That's how it turns out to be, rather that's how it works. Dirty approach, but works well.

Anywaz, i was just referring to the fact that had our govt (and to an extent military) been a bit more 'aggressive', atleast a Nov 26 could have been averted.
 
Aamir Hussain,

Sir----why don't you ask this question of mAV3erick----according to him the 2 1/2 million dead muslims don't count---he don't give a rats ar-se to the dead and to their families---so how many other pakistanis think like him---.

Where did I every say that 2.5 million dead Muslims don't count? Wasn't my point to stress American defeat instead? You have a very twisted logic of understanding.
 
Not really and you couldn't be far from truth.

Musharraf sold Pakistan to the Yankees for some old F-16s (Yeah, Blk 52s are old now, considering our nemesis is fielding more modern fighters) and he couldn't make the Yanks even agree that they better deliver weapons to Pakistan long term.

Musharraf sold us to the yanks? Hmm....he must be selling us to the yanks when he was still a soldier as our 'sold' relationship with the yanks is that old! Ofcourse you can close your eyes, discard the history and claim that Musharraf decided to help the Americans after 9/11.....well, dude, so did the rest of the world! What could anybody else have done???? Damn!!



Then he makes Nawaz and Benazir return? Who wanted that? Yanks. Not Pakistanis.
So again, a blunder by your BadA$$.

Yanks wanted NS and BB to return and not Pakistani's? Well, this might be a rude awakening, but the hundreds of thousands that thronged BB and NS upon their arrival, the millions that follow them blindly and most sincerely were not yanks and are not yanks, they were and are Pakistanis!

The yanks might have wanted BB to return, perhaps even NS but it was my beloved but extremely stupid Pakistani's that rejoiced. So it was Pakistani's that invited BB & NS back, it was Pakistani's that voted them in to power an it was and is Pakistani's that still follow these 2 parties blindly!



Then, he himself leaves the office and goes to live in London, Dubai, USA and what not. If he was a true patriot, he would clearly define and enforce on the red lines to the Yanks about what Pakistan will support and what not. He would have lived and died in Pakistan.

Lived and died in a Pakistan where he is not wanted? Daily I witness more anti Musharraf elements then pro Musharraf and they are only pissed because PML & PPP were 'sidelined' and their beloved political leaders exiled either forcefully or by choice by Musharraf!



I guess the wealth he amasses pretty much speaks for it self.

Well, I guess I must tell you how much he makes for every single lecture that he delivers.



So Mushy sold Pakistan......at the lowest rate. If you gotta sell something, sell it higher. Like they say, something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

For Mushy it was a meager 20 Billion dollars. For Yanks the cost was Peanuts. For us, the ordinary citizens, the cost was well over 40,000 lives and tons of families more whose future was destroyed.

I can somewhat agree that Musharraf should have demanded a lot more in return.....written of debt, compensation for involvement, transit fee for shipments, investment and trade benefits and priorities etc. which he did not pursue under what conditions I do not know. However, has the subsequent Government done better or far worse????
 
IS Pak Army A Necessary Evil? - Pakistan - Zimbio

IS Pak Army A Necessary Evil?

By imranfrq on January 19, 2012 | From newscenterpk.com

By Sajjad Shaukat

It is in response to the article of Rabia Ahmed, published in ‘Pakistan Today’ on January 16, 2012 under the caption, Why this army?

In her illogical criticism of Pakistan Army, Rabia Ahmed has also shown contradictory approach. At the same time, she has, in other words, realized that army should exist, but rejected its need. In this regard, in the article, while expressing views about 1965 war, and other related-wars against terrorism, she writes, “Mehdi Hassan and Noor Jehan’s songs held the public in thrall during the war of 1965…many jawans lost their lives in Pakistan’s several wars and skirmishes against enemies within and without its borders. However the armed forces cannot claim to be alone in their losses here.”

While indicating the figures of deaths during war against terrorism, from 2003 to February 2012, Rabia reveals, “All in all, 9,620 civilians died in seven years and two months in this country, while 3,443 SF [Security Forces] personnel and 20,150 terrorists lost their lives, a staggering total of 33,213 lives all…either the armed forces are no longer effective, or unable to be so.” Nevertheless, in these terms, the writer forgot that it is a different war between sovereign and non-sovereign entities, and there is no way out to completely eliminate this different enemy and suicide attacks. Even western high official and think tanks agree in light of subversive attacks in UK, Spain, Russia, Turkey, Uzbekistan, Nigeria, Philippines etc., and a continued wave of the same in Afghanistan, Iraq and Somalia in the aftermath of the 9/11 that fight against this new brand of conflict needs cooperation of all the people, intelligence agencies and security forces.

Even then, Pak Army proved successful in coping with terrorists. While indicating hostility for the sake of hostility, Rabia ignored that when the well-trained and heavily-equipped Taliban had occupied Swat, Dir, Bunir and other adjoining areas, continuing their criminal activities like kidnappings, beheadings, hostage-takings for ransom etc.—Police or Frontier Constabulary was not in a position to handle the situation. It was due to Swat and Malakand military operations led by Pakistan’s armed forces which had broken the backbone of the Taliban insurgents in the related-regions and South Waziristan. Notably, what the US-led NATO forces, equipped with sophisticated weaponry could not do against the Afghan militants in ten years in Afghanistan, Pak Army did within ten months. So as to how Rabia claims the performance of our armed forces ineffective.

Confused with her own thoughts, Rabia Ahmed also criticizes the each successive government, the present one, and its president as “highly corrupt.” She allegedly points out, “Can the same question be asked about the armed forces? Dare I ask if an army is really necessary in this country, at least in the shape, size and form it takes today?”

In this context, Rabia Ahmed must grasp reality. She should know that past experience shows that democracy which has proved to be a success in the west has been a failure in Pakistan. We cannot blame the system of democracy itself, because “any instrument can be misused.” And wastage of time in retaliation, allegations of corruption against each other, hostility for the sake of hostility, alliances and counter-alliances to change the government are characteristics of our politicians. She should also take note of the fact that during the Musharaff era, National Accountability Bureau had recovered billions of Rupees from the politicians and bureaucrats including Admiral Sarohi. Besides, if any official of the armed forces is found involved in corruption, he is punished through court martial without any discrimination.

Journalist Rabia must remember that during the regime of Nawaz Sharif, WAPDA was going to be bankrupted, and he himself had invited the army to manage its affairs. By collecting the electricity bills impartially, even from the influential persons, army’s personnel had saved WAPDA from bankruptcy. Besides, Pakistan Army has performed innumerable services during floods—desilting of canals (Bhal Safai), particularly during the Earthquake of 2005, entailing restoration of law and order on many occasions, resettlement of the Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) and so on.

In her article, Rabia misperceived without any rationale that Pakistan’s “defence budget for the year 2011-12 increased, and now stands at over Rs 495 billion…any organization that finds itself running out of jobs has to create them. The huge American arms industry has been doing so by creating the need for weapons around the world…the Pakistani establishment too is implicated in supporting terrorism in the entire South Asian region…. the ineptness/involvement of the Pakistan army in the Osama bin Laden case begs the question why such huge amounts of funds are being diverted from the crucial needs of a poverty stricken nation into military coffers.”

Rabia must know that army’s defence budget is very essential as no army can fight without training, suitable infrastructure, food, weapons and so on. It is the duty of civil government to fulfill the necessities of the armed forces, while also providing the general masses with the requisite services through the concerned departments. In this connection, writer Rabia Ahmed miscalculates that Pak army is a burden on the country’s budget. She must pay attention to the factual position in the region. India which has imposed three wars on Pakistan, has rapidly been increasing its defence forces and its defence budget, while its military purchases have no bounds. Does Rabia know that during Musharaff era, Islamabad had offered New Delhi to resolve the thorny dispute of the Indian-held Kashmir and to reduce the forces in both the countries? But New Delhi flatly rejected the offer. Besides, history of Pak-Indian talks proves that India has always used delaying tactics in settling any issue with Pakistan. Notably, under the pretext of parliament attack by the militants in 2001 and that of Mubmbai carnage of 2008, India had concentrated troops across the Pakistani border. And Islamabad was also forced to follow the suit. Such war-like occasions prove that Pak Army is a necessary evil for the country and not burden on it as conceived by Rabia.

In fact, Journalist Rabia Ahmed has totally ignored the ground realties. While speaking in the tone of Pakistan’s foreign enemies, she has presumed that Pakistani establishment or its army is supporting terrorism in South Asia for keeping its existence. In this regard, she must better divert her attention towards India’s state terrorism in Kashmir, and that of the US-led NATO in Afghanistan.

Just like Pakistan’s external enemies, Rabia has also accused involvement of the Pakistan Army in the Osama Bin Laden case. In this regard, ISI DG Ahmed Shuja Pasha has already made it clear that Osama was living in a residential area in Abbotabad, and it was not in the knowledge of the agency. Here, question also arises that equipped with eavesdropping technology and much resources as to why American CIA failed in capturing Osama in nine years. The writer also ignored the facts that during war against terrorism, Pakistan’s intelligence agency, ISI captured renowned Taliban commanders besides foiling a number of suicide attacks through pre-arrests of the insurgents.

It is of particular attention that in the last few years, failed in their misadventure, US top officials and their media have perennially been blaming Pak army and ISI for supporting the Afghan insurgency and Haqqani militancy in Afghanistan. Some Indian rulers and Karzai-led puppet regime in Afghanistan also expressed similar views. As part of the foreign plot, Pakistan has become special target of the internal and external crises created by the United States, India and Israel through their secret agencies, CIA, RAW and Mossad which are in connivance to destabilize Pakistan as it is the only nuclear country in the Islamic World. Therefore, these agencies have been sending well-trained agents and militants in Pakistan, who commit various subversive acts in the country.

One can find no difference between the blame game of Pakistan’s foreign enemies and that of Rabia Ahmed’s views as expressed in her article. It seems that she lacks vast knowledge on international relations and geo-strategic aspects of the region. In this context, She must be aware of the fact that Pakistan is not Switzerland which does not require armed forces. At this critical juncure, she is advised to follow a realistic approach as Pakistan’s armed forces are coping with internal and external enemies by facing new kind of aggression. Army is still facing pocket resistance in some tribal areas and Indo-US-backed militants’ attaks across Pak-Afghan border intermittently.

Instead of following the baseless approach like human rights activist, Asma Jehangir and media anchors, Hamid Mir or Najam Sethi, Rabia must keep it in mind that Pak Army has become a necessary evil for Pakistan in wake of all the above mentioned drastic developments the country has been facing.

Sajjad Shaukat writes on international affairs and is author of the book: US vs Islamic Militants, Invisible Balance of Power: Dangerous Shift in International Relations

Email: sajjad_logic@yahoo.com
 
Unfortunately, since 1950s instead of working for people welfare, we have changed our country in to a security state.

We eat breath and excrete nothing but militrization. And even after humiliating defeats in all wars and failed afghan policy, our establishment and men in uniform are in no moad to mend their ways.

failed Afghan policy?

we fed them for decades, we took them to Mecca to mend their differences, we gave them shelter when they became homeless, we give them sea access and easy trade route, not sure why you want to blame us for their petty differences they cant resolve themselves. And if it gets invaded after every 2nd or 3rd decade then why is it our fault?


and what has India achieved against us? broke a weaker part of us which was already gone due to the failure of the whole western side to recognise their rights and having an enemy which never accepted us from start never helped. the Eastern part was long last even before the Indians stepped in.

why do you think Swat operation succeeded? because people were with us (that wasnt the case in Bangladesh) and thats what the Yanks are also lacking in Afghanistan despite their military might.
by the way it was the civilian leader Gulam Muhammad who started the undemocratic process in Pakistan.

I aggree that spending money on military doesnt help at all its all a waste. imagine how much Villas can Zardari buy in France had that money been available or how many times Nawaz would send this money to his Middle east companies?

pun aside, if you can convince the Indians to move their 80% forces from their forward bases along the Pakistani borders then we wont have much reason to spend money on military.


Indians should be really proud to defeat us in few wars specially our weakest side they learnt this lesson by only picking the weaker countries now after getting a little beating by the chinks but the fault lies with our military of course, maybe a nation that could produce anything better than the leaders like Zardari and Nawaz would have had a better military too (it consists of the same Gems like you doesnt it?)

but wait.. why should we blame ourselves?
blame the Zionists, the Indians, the Yanks and then the military and be done with it. repeat the process again whenever there is another toss up.
 
IMHO the problem here lies with the basic thinking that if you are a Muslim, you will support us. Time and again this premise has been proven false.

Nassir of Egypt supported India in 1965. Afghan Gov’t has had a pro Indian stance for a very long time. Anyone who has been to Dubai or to Kuwait will witness that majority of expatriates working there are Indians. We also keep forgetting that India is home to more Muslims than Pakistan.

Whatever the reasons be, the fact remains that National interest overrides all other considerations. Alas not so in Pakistan. We have to get rid of this fallacy from our mind-set. Else we have suffered before and will suffer again for this wishful thinking.
 
pun aside, if you can convince the Indians to move their 80% forces from their forward bases along the Pakistani borders then we wont have much reason to spend money on military.

80% forces...7 lakh forces in kashmir..two most used yet wrong number of pakistanis in pdf..well nvm..


Indians should be really proud to defeat us in few wars specially our weakest side they learnt this lesson by only picking the weaker countries now after getting a little beating by the chinks but the fault lies with our military of course, .

we were beat you after being beat by the chinese..it was a wakeup call to our leadership which was still hung on non-violence and peace from independence era...and regarding us beating a weaker nation....well you brought it on yourself...oh wait..but you did not consider yourself weaker those days...did you...1 pakistani muslim = 10 hindu indians and all that...

btw are you going to ban yourself for calling the chinese chinks ? they raise a hue and cry everytime a indian says so..:lol:
 

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