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Can't live with them, can't live without them

These military and US deals (whether or not the civilians are involved) that go about need to stop. Everything must first be passed by the parliament and properly declared to the people of Pakistan.

The reason being we can STOP the parliament through protests from going ahead with anti-Pakistan agendas if it ever happened. But RD, drone deals, missing person, they were all decided out of parliament and we got no say in it.

This post about sums up every everything.

There can be nothing wrong with the Army of any nation so long as it conforms to the laws of the land.

The money it spends - for wharever reasons belongs to the taxpayer, they must have a right to question / audit the expenses. This can happen best thru an elected Govt.

Most Pak posters here are willing to put their trust in an orgnisation that created an environment that led to the dismemberment of the nation but are unwilling to put their faith in themselves.
 
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This post about sums up every everything.

There can be nothing wrong with the Army of any nation so long as it conforms to the laws of the land.

The money it spends - for wharever reasons belongs to the taxpayer, they must have a right to question / audit the expenses. This can happen best thru an elected Govt.

Most Pak posters here are willing to put their trust in an orgnisation that created an environment that led to the dismemberment of the nation but are unwilling to put their faith in themselves.

There is much confusion. Till date, there never has been democracy. I think the only true elections we had were of 1970 where the Bangladeshis won and ended up splitting the country. Pakistani general election, 1970 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Since then all elections have been rigged to bring forth the obvious winner. Before every elections we know who will win it and they always win it.

So its reasonable that with fixed results, people won't have faith in them. Instead they like a trained, educated and a person who has served Pakistan all his life to reach the COAS position to become the leader. But that's just the reason why we have our inclinations towards the army. If truly we were offered a democracy we would take it.
 
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proud to be paksitanis we are all the same in uniform or with out :pakistan::P
 
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[QUOTE=Asim Aquil;2480700]There is much confusion. Till date, there never has been democracy. I think the only true elections we had were of 1970 where the Bangladeshis won and ended up splitting the country. Pakistani general election, 1970 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Since then all elections have been rigged to bring forth the obvious winner. Before every elections we know who will win it and they always win it.

So its reasonable that with fixed results, people won't have faith in them. Instead they like a trained, educated and a person who has served Pakistan all his life to reach the COAS position to become the leader. But that's just the reason why we have our inclinations towards the army. If truly we were offered a democracy we would take it.
[/QUOTE]



Here lies the rub.

There is no one who will offer a nation a true democracy. There is none. Just like there is no perfect leader or Govt.

The people thru whatever means they devise have to evolve for themselves a democracy or any other method of governance that suits them and meets their aspirations.

Sure , there will be mistakes but then just because we fell down we did not stop learning to ride a bicycle. The Army's role in running a nation at best is like the side supports children have on their bicycles or the rubber tube they have for non swimmers.

You shall never learn to do it yourself so long as these ' crutches' remain.
 
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but pakistan does,nt have any good civilian governments people local people would have been begging kiyani to take over had imran khan not shown them a glimmer of hope this civilian government has completely destroyed pakistan its is true that gen musharraf started the drone strikes but in tenure the americans first had to ask him and he would check it then give permission the american military themselves said that when zardari came we stopped asking him thats why the rapid increase inm drone strikes and in his tenure the bombing after every three days people are now going to give one last chance to democracy if it fails again then everyone will support army control bcz whenever army was in power things were a lot better even if musharraf was americas man he still had a tighter grip than the moron zardari....... kiyani is at the least pro democracy bcz he knows that right now a military coup will be the last thing that pakistans image needs and can be used against pakistan by america and that idiot zardari by saying : hum jamhooriat kay shaheed hai humay vote day: he puts up with them to end the saga once and for all
 
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why did webby start this thread on behalf of xeric?
 
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[QUOTE=Asim Aquil;2480700]There is much confusion. Till date, there never has been democracy. I think the only true elections we had were of 1970 where the Bangladeshis won and ended up splitting the country. Pakistani general election, 1970 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Since then all elections have been rigged to bring forth the obvious winner. Before every elections we know who will win it and they always win it.

So its reasonable that with fixed results, people won't have faith in them. Instead they like a trained, educated and a person who has served Pakistan all his life to reach the COAS position to become the leader. But that's just the reason why we have our inclinations towards the army. If truly we were offered a democracy we would take it.
[/QUOTE]



Here lies the rub.

There is no one who will offer a nation a true democracy. There is none. Just like there is no perfect leader or Govt.

The people thru whatever means they devise have to evolve for themselves a democracy or any other method of governance that suits them and meets their aspirations.

Sure , there will be mistakes but then just because we fell down we did not stop learning to ride a bicycle. The Army's role in running a nation at best is like the side supports children have on their bicycles or the rubber tube they have for non swimmers.

You shall never learn to do it yourself so long as these ' crutches' remain.

By process of elimination we're slowly getting there... Despite there being so many calls for a coup, a coup by the COAS seems very unlikely. In the 90s this would have happened already. So things are changing.

Pakistanis are griping about democracy but the overwhelming majority has no appetite for a coup.
 
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People here saying Kayani should be solving problems, but at the sametime , disagreeing with the coup.

A bit funny !!!
 
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People here saying Kayani should be solving problems, but at the sametime , disagreeing with the coup.

A bit funny !!!

Kayani should solve problems of his own shortcomings related to his profession not of Zardari's profession. "I can't defend against drone attacks because the people won't let me coup", isn't an excuse.

If the government has stopped him from defending he should come out and say it. Instead we know that the parliament, gave orders to shoot down drones. He still took attacks. Why?
 
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Kayani should solve problems of his own shortcomings related to his profession not of Zardari's profession. "I can't defend against drone attacks because the people won't let me coup", isn't an excuse.

If the government has stopped him from defending he should come out and say it. Instead we know that the parliament, gave orders to shoot down drones. He still took attacks. Why?

Why indeed!

People should now stop saying the usual stuff that it is all the army's fault and everything. To a certain extent, and in some cases, the army is involved in decision making, but what about gas loadshedding, fuel crisis, economy crisis, PIA and so on and on.
 
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Xeric,

Kiyani is a coward---he is a gutless warrior---everytime he is confronted----he chickens out. There are no ifs and ***** about it----he is also in collusion with Zardari---. Was this the time for the army to don the garb of sainthood and when the most ever corrupt government came into power as it sold the country lock stock and barrell in advance.

I sent a letter to your general----it was put on his desk---told him to swallow his .45----if he has any pride and character left. It was given to him after the Mullen incidence where Mullen totally destroyed the integrity of pak millitary and Kiyani was in a shock that his 'buddy' Mullen had betrayed him in front of the congress.

Come one MK, take a chill pill man :)

i know exactly why you are frustrated, and rightly so, every Pakistani must be frustrated by the turn of events that have taken place recently.

But arent we discussing that the military should stop acting like a thanaydar everytime things go wrong inside Pakistan? Whereas you are 'advicing' Sir Kiyani to do the opposite.

Yes, Kiyani may be in cullusion with Zardri, but then isnt it better for Pakistan as the so-called liberals (thankyou media - anybody who can afford Geo News on cable thinks he is a liberal) have put in lot of efforts to close the doors of military interventions?

The theme is quite simple, as far as i understand - let the democracy to its job, let it mature, let it take roots, let it go strong. i know during this maturation process, bad things will happen - no gas, no bijli, no security, poor state of law and order, inflation, corruption and what all and what not, but then that's how it works.

As far as Kiyani's docilness is concerned, in addition to he allowing democracy to mature, i will attribute his 'cowardness' to the fact that as of now our govt and/or any politicans (i dont know how Imran will come out like) dont have the balls to sustain the external pressures when it comes to issues like releasing RD or acting up over May 2 kill. The Nation, on the other hand is ready to sustain the pressures, or is it? Gareeb admi ko roti ki pari hoi hai, usy kya RD rehta ha ya jata hai? Beleive me there is still (despite the increased awareness among the people) a large number of Pakistanis, who simply dont care who is ruling/governing them. So would they be able to force the govt to change its stance over controversial issues?

But the there is also another kind of Pakistanis, who, like yourself feel agitated when govts shows lack of resolution or if the decisions are made outside the Parliment. This kind is larger in number, and it is only to let their numbers grow that Sir Kiyani is acting like a 'coward', or else kicking the a$$ of Zardari, taking over everything, allowing/disallowing RD, drones etc would have been a 'viable' option for him, but then this would have taken us all into the vicious circle - poor govt > coup > even poorer governance (shaheeday jamuhriayt) > coup > screwed up govt (aka the current one) and so on and so forth.

Kiyani is trying to break this vicious circle at its last instance (i.e. screwed up govt).
 
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I believe after implementing reforms, we should set guide lines for the military as to when or under what circumstance coup or martial law is acceptable or necessary.

There's need to be a checks and balances system.
 
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It is time for the average Muhammad Hussain to shoulder some responsiblity of the fiasco we are in. We can not always lay the blame on the usual suspcts. This time around the public made decision and are reaping the harvest. NRO or no NRO, it only allowed PPP stawarts to contest in the polls -- no one forcesd the hands of the average Joe and Jane to vote for PPP.

We as citizens of this country also learn to exercise our vote with care and bring balance in our thoughts, actions and deeds. conveniently layingthr blame on this or that and offcourse the ever available Amreeka will not cut much longer.

i am squarely against the boots stepping in any time. Let the masses bear the brunt of their stupidity. Maybe they will learn a lesson.
 
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