What's new

China’s driverless dreams troubled by US chip dependency

F-22Raptor

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
16,971
Reaction score
3
Country
United States
Location
United States
Jidu Automotive’s Robocar will drive itself to the main stage at the Beijing motor show in April, in a testament to the pace of innovation in the world’s biggest car market.

Jidu, a joint venture between search engine Baidu and car manufacturer Geely, is showcasing Robocar after just two years in development.

It joins a roster of Tesla rivals led by Nio, XPeng and Human Horizons racing to develop driverless cars. But Robocar’s brains reveal a problem threatening Chinese leader Xi Jinping’s quest for technological independence.

China’s driverless car companies remain dependent on chips designed by foreign companies — mostly US groups Nvidia, Qualcomm and Intel — and fabricated offshore.

The country has a cohort of chip design houses on the rise, including MetaX Integrated Circuits and Biren Technology, and in the first half of 2021 China’s chip industry drew $3.85bn in venture capital, according to Deloitte. Yet they are years behind their US rivals.

Velu Sinha, a China semiconductor expert with Bain & Company, said Nvidia benefited from “a decade’s head start” on the back of the success of its GPU (graphics processing unit) technology.

“Billions of dollars have been pouring into this space. But right now, Nvidia continues to be in a really healthy spot,” Sinha said.

For Beijing, the stakes are high. Xi wants technological self-sufficiency to provide a bulwarkagainst economic and trade attacks. Xi’s elevation of semiconductors and electric vehicles to industries of national importance has drawn thousands of new companies into the market.

McKinsey, the consultancy, has forecast that by 2040 autonomous vehicles will compose 40 per cent of new vehicle sales in China, generating revenues of close to $1tn in sales of vehicles and $1.1tn from mobility services.

China’s fabless companies — the groups that compete with Nvidia and Qualcomm in designing and selling chip hardware, but not manufacturing — have already built a 16 per cent market share globally, according to the Semiconductor Industry Association, a US group.

They are still working to crack Nvidia’s dominance. The US group has disclosed at least 18 different Chinese companies using its chips as a key part of their autonomous driving plans.

The list includes Alibaba-backed AutoX and WeRide, which has been funded by the Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance, as well as ride-hailing group Didi, which is backed by Apple.

Nvidia and Jidu declined to comment.

Randy Abrams, head of Asia semiconductor research at Credit Suisse, said Chinese EV groups still needed to use “best of breed” for critical technologies.

“Nvidia still is more advanced on the in-vehicle processing and also the AI training and simulation work needed to develop these platforms,” Abrams added.

Zeekr, a unit of Geely, has partnered with Intel’s Mobileye to launch a self-driving car in 2024. And Great Wall Motor, another of China’s biggest traditional carmakers, has turned to Qualcomm for its autonomous driving development.

China’s automotive chip development is still plagued by a series of “fundamental problems”, according to one China-based semiconductor consultant, who asked not to be named.

Achieving the scale needed to be competitive is difficult. In recent years, the prohibitive cost of chip development has precluded scores of companies from breaking into the market beyond niche applications.

Meanwhile, incumbents such as Nvidia are repurposing chip technologies, which have underpinned the explosion of mobile phones, desktop computers and data centres over the past two decades.

“The largest Chinese [company] makes about a million cars a year,” the semiconductor consultant said, explaining that “the scale is just not anywhere remotely close to being big enough”.

Xiao Jianxiong, AutoX’s founder and chief executive, said his company was worried about the delays that could come working with newcomers.

“We want to move as fast as possible. We want to make self-driving cars scale-up quickly . . . productivity really matters for us, and the maturity of that ecosystem is really, really helpful,” he said about working with Nvidia and its ecosystem of engineers and suppliers.

A further problem for China is that local manufacturing is not an option for the most cutting-edge chips used by autonomous driving platforms. Foreign incumbents are also cementing their dominance.

TSMC, the biggest maker of processor chips plans a capital expenditure of $44bn this year alone, raising it by almost a half. In contrast, China’s closest rival SMIC plans a capex of $5bn. Most sector specialists believe that SMIC remains about five years behind TSMC in technology development.

“At the end of the day, your car has to work. It has to get delivered at scale, at quality, at volume, at cost. You can’t fake your way around it. Your propaganda only works so far,” the consultant said.

https://amp.ft.com/content/64e8c789-14ed-40ef-8b44-9998b6e520b8
 
Jidu Automotive’s Robocar will drive itself to the main stage at the Beijing motor show in April, in a testament to the pace of innovation in the world’s biggest car market.

Jidu, a joint venture between search engine Baidu and car manufacturer Geely, is showcasing Robocar after just two years in development.

It joins a roster of Tesla rivals led by Nio, XPeng and Human Horizons racing to develop driverless cars. But Robocar’s brains reveal a problem threatening Chinese leader Xi Jinping’s quest for technological independence.

China’s driverless car companies remain dependent on chips designed by foreign companies — mostly US groups Nvidia, Qualcomm and Intel — and fabricated offshore.

The country has a cohort of chip design houses on the rise, including MetaX Integrated Circuits and Biren Technology, and in the first half of 2021 China’s chip industry drew $3.85bn in venture capital, according to Deloitte. Yet they are years behind their US rivals.

Velu Sinha, a China semiconductor expert with Bain & Company, said Nvidia benefited from “a decade’s head start” on the back of the success of its GPU (graphics processing unit) technology.

“Billions of dollars have been pouring into this space. But right now, Nvidia continues to be in a really healthy spot,” Sinha said.

For Beijing, the stakes are high. Xi wants technological self-sufficiency to provide a bulwarkagainst economic and trade attacks. Xi’s elevation of semiconductors and electric vehicles to industries of national importance has drawn thousands of new companies into the market.

McKinsey, the consultancy, has forecast that by 2040 autonomous vehicles will compose 40 per cent of new vehicle sales in China, generating revenues of close to $1tn in sales of vehicles and $1.1tn from mobility services.

China’s fabless companies — the groups that compete with Nvidia and Qualcomm in designing and selling chip hardware, but not manufacturing — have already built a 16 per cent market share globally, according to the Semiconductor Industry Association, a US group.

They are still working to crack Nvidia’s dominance. The US group has disclosed at least 18 different Chinese companies using its chips as a key part of their autonomous driving plans.

The list includes Alibaba-backed AutoX and WeRide, which has been funded by the Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance, as well as ride-hailing group Didi, which is backed by Apple.

Nvidia and Jidu declined to comment.

Randy Abrams, head of Asia semiconductor research at Credit Suisse, said Chinese EV groups still needed to use “best of breed” for critical technologies.

“Nvidia still is more advanced on the in-vehicle processing and also the AI training and simulation work needed to develop these platforms,” Abrams added.

Zeekr, a unit of Geely, has partnered with Intel’s Mobileye to launch a self-driving car in 2024. And Great Wall Motor, another of China’s biggest traditional carmakers, has turned to Qualcomm for its autonomous driving development.

China’s automotive chip development is still plagued by a series of “fundamental problems”, according to one China-based semiconductor consultant, who asked not to be named.

Achieving the scale needed to be competitive is difficult. In recent years, the prohibitive cost of chip development has precluded scores of companies from breaking into the market beyond niche applications.

Meanwhile, incumbents such as Nvidia are repurposing chip technologies, which have underpinned the explosion of mobile phones, desktop computers and data centres over the past two decades.

“The largest Chinese [company] makes about a million cars a year,” the semiconductor consultant said, explaining that “the scale is just not anywhere remotely close to being big enough”.

Xiao Jianxiong, AutoX’s founder and chief executive, said his company was worried about the delays that could come working with newcomers.

“We want to move as fast as possible. We want to make self-driving cars scale-up quickly . . . productivity really matters for us, and the maturity of that ecosystem is really, really helpful,” he said about working with Nvidia and its ecosystem of engineers and suppliers.

A further problem for China is that local manufacturing is not an option for the most cutting-edge chips used by autonomous driving platforms. Foreign incumbents are also cementing their dominance.

TSMC, the biggest maker of processor chips plans a capital expenditure of $44bn this year alone, raising it by almost a half. In contrast, China’s closest rival SMIC plans a capex of $5bn. Most sector specialists believe that SMIC remains about five years behind TSMC in technology development.

“At the end of the day, your car has to work. It has to get delivered at scale, at quality, at volume, at cost. You can’t fake your way around it. Your propaganda only works so far,” the consultant said.

https://amp.ft.com/content/64e8c789-14ed-40ef-8b44-9998b6e520b8


Nvidia vice president Ali Kani used a presentation to the CES technology conference to list several Chinese electric vehicle (EV) makers that will use Nvidia's DRIVE technology as part of the computer brains of new vehicles, including Polestar, Xpeng, NIO, IM Motors, Li Auto and R Auto.


Pony.ai, an autonomous driving technology company, has developed a “complete autonomous computing unit” built on the Nvidia Drive Orin system-on-chip (SoC).
 
Velu Sinha, a China semiconductor expert with Bain & Company
When I see this, I stopped reading...LMAO...
China has millions of self-driving chip makers, Huawei, Horizon Robotics, just name a few...
BTW, Nvidia is a company founded and primarily led by Chinese. Jensen Huang's parents come from Zhejiang province of China. So it is nothing proud for you trolls to talk shxt about Chinese companies using their products...lol...
 
Last edited:
Nvidia vice president Ali Kani used a presentation to the CES technology conference to list several Chinese electric vehicle (EV) makers that will use Nvidia's DRIVE technology as part of the computer brains of new vehicles, including Polestar, Xpeng, NIO, IM Motors, Li Auto and R Auto.

Add BYD.


BYD, World’s Largest EV Maker, Partners With NVIDIA for Mainstream Software-Defined Vehicles Built on NVIDIA DRIVE​

SANTA CLARA, Calif., March 21, 2023 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- GTC -- NVIDIA today announced that BYD, the world’s leading manufacturer of new energy vehicles (NEVs), will extend its use of the NVIDIA DRIVE Orin™ centralized compute platform in a broader range of its NEVs. The enhanced partnership expands BYD’s use of DRIVE Orin across the multiple models in its next-generation Dynasty and Ocean series of vehicles, bringing safe and intelligent vehicles to market.


“NVIDIA DRIVE Orin has been enormously successful with global mobility leaders that are building the software-defined future,” said Rishi Dhall, vice president of automotive at NVIDIA. “Our ongoing collaboration with BYD is a testament to the industry’s confidence in DRIVE Orin as the centralized computer for today’s and tomorrow’s intelligent vehicles.”

NVIDIA and BYD share the belief that future cars will be programmable, evolving from being based on many embedded controllers to high-performance centralized computers — with functionalities delivered and enhanced through software updates over the life of the car. The compute horsepower from DRIVE Orin is critical for diverse, redundant sensor processing in real time, and provides automakers with the compute headroom to develop and support new software-driven services throughout the entire life of the vehicle.

Since entering production last year, DRIVE Orin — the highest performance automotive-grade processor on the market — has become the transportation industry’s AI engine of choice for the new generation of NEVs, robotaxis, shuttles and trucks. Designed to meet stringent industry safety standards, the scalable DRIVE Orin platform is capable of performing up to 254 trillion operations per second, enabling it to power AI cockpits, as well as automated driving functions — simultaneously running numerous deep neural networks to provide the ultimate safety and reliability.

Beyond selecting NVIDIA DRIVE Orin for its EV fleets, BYD announced earlier this year that it is working with NVIDIA to enhance the in-vehicle experience by bringing the NVIDIA GeForce NOW™ cloud gaming service to its vehicles.

With industry-leading technologies such as the Blade Battery, DM-i super hybrid technology and the e-platform, BYD has sold over 3.7 million NEVs globally as of February 2023, while creating a better mobility experience for consumers.

To learn more about the latest technology breakthroughs in automotive and other industries, watch NVIDIA founder and CEO Jensen Huang’s GTC keynote. Register free for GTC to attend a number of sessions with NVIDIA and today’s mobility leaders.
 

Why the U.S. can't build EVs without China

Joann Muller
Updated Apr 13, 2023 - Economy & Business

The Biden administration's effort to spur domestic battery manufacturing is running into a problem: Some critical raw materials are only found abroad, and China controls much of the supply.

Why it matters: The provenance of raw materials used in electric vehicle (EV) production — including lithium, nickel, cobalt and graphite — is about to have a huge impact on tax credits designed to put such cars within reach of average Americans.

Details: Consumers can earn up to $7,500 in federal tax credits on EV purchases — but only when buying cars that meet certain sourcing requirements.

  • New rules issued under last year's Inflation Reduction Act exclude EVs with components from "foreign entities of concern" — a category that remains hazy but will likely include China, given that federal officials recently tagged it as such in the semiconductor world.
  • The idea is to reduce U.S. reliance on China, a lofty goal given that country's control of vital battery resources and technology.
Reality check: Many of the minerals essential to EV battery chemistries are primarily mined and processed in China, or by companies within China's sphere of influence.

  • China is poised to control a third of the world's lithium supply by 2025, for example.
  • It's also home to one of the world's largest natural battery graphite resources, and is the only country currently mining such material in large quantities.
  • While lithium and some other battery minerals exist in the U.S., developing mines is an expensive, time-consuming process.
The intrigue: Navigating such geopolitics while trying to master rapidly evolving technology can be dicey for automakers, who are lining up for lucrative tax credits of their own to produce batteries in the U.S.

Zoom in: Ford Motor, for example, expects more than $7 billion in battery manufacturing tax credits between now and 2026, and says the annual credits will leap much higher starting in 2027.

  • Yet the carmaker has been criticized for collaborating with a Chinese supplier on a new $3.5 billion battery plant in Michigan, and for investing alongside a Chinese mining company in an Indonesian nickel plant.
  • Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) is sponsoring a bill aimed at Ford that would outlaw tax credits for joint ventures with Chinese companies, or for EVs built using battery technology licensed from China.
What they're saying: "Hardworking Americans should not be forced to subsidize Chinese companies that make batteries for electric vehicles that cost more than most people make in a year," Rubio said in a statement.

The other side: Ford says it's complying with both the letter and the spirit of U.S. law while creating thousands of jobs.

  • "Like every other major global automaker, our supply chain draws from the best technologies, processes and minerals from around the world, including from Chinese companies," a company spokesperson told Axios.
  • The Michigan factory will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Ford, not a joint venture, the spokesperson added.
  • Ford will pay a licensing fee to China's CATL, the world's largest battery company, and hire the Chinese company to help get the Michigan plant up and running — but CATL won't receive taxpayer money.


  • Amid the backlash, Ford issued a press release this week proclaiming itself "the most American of all car companies" because it produces the most vehicles and employs the most hourly workers in the U.S.
The Biden Administration says it is working to strengthen U.S. supply chains, with more than $100 billion invested so far in EV-related manufacturing.

  • "President Biden has put us on the bold path we need to be on to out-compete competitors like China for jobs and investments building the future of transportation," a White House spokesperson said.
The big picture: Auto industry executives say there's danger in trying to unwind global supply chains to protect regional economies.

  • "There are a lot of traps," says Carlos Tavares, CEO of Stellantis, the parent of Jeep, Chrysler and Peugeot. "The world is fragmenting, and global trade is going backwards," he says, creating regional economic bubbles.
  • "You might not always have the resources inside the bubble to support the activities inside the bubble," he adds — which could mean higher prices for energy, raw materials and labor.
  • Plus, battery technology is still evolving — sodium-based designs are one intriguing development — meaning the U.S. may be at risk of building mines and factories to produce batteries that wind up being obsolete in a decade. (Cobalt and nickel, for instance, are prevalent in today's batteries but could soon be outmoded.)
The bottom line: The White House has notched several big battery wins, but it'll take more than a few tax breaks to reverse decades of globalization.

 
Add BYD.


BYD, World’s Largest EV Maker, Partners With NVIDIA for Mainstream Software-Defined Vehicles Built on NVIDIA DRIVE​

SANTA CLARA, Calif., March 21, 2023 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- GTC -- NVIDIA today announced that BYD, the world’s leading manufacturer of new energy vehicles (NEVs), will extend its use of the NVIDIA DRIVE Orin™ centralized compute platform in a broader range of its NEVs. The enhanced partnership expands BYD’s use of DRIVE Orin across the multiple models in its next-generation Dynasty and Ocean series of vehicles, bringing safe and intelligent vehicles to market.


“NVIDIA DRIVE Orin has been enormously successful with global mobility leaders that are building the software-defined future,” said Rishi Dhall, vice president of automotive at NVIDIA. “Our ongoing collaboration with BYD is a testament to the industry’s confidence in DRIVE Orin as the centralized computer for today’s and tomorrow’s intelligent vehicles.”

NVIDIA and BYD share the belief that future cars will be programmable, evolving from being based on many embedded controllers to high-performance centralized computers — with functionalities delivered and enhanced through software updates over the life of the car. The compute horsepower from DRIVE Orin is critical for diverse, redundant sensor processing in real time, and provides automakers with the compute headroom to develop and support new software-driven services throughout the entire life of the vehicle.

Since entering production last year, DRIVE Orin — the highest performance automotive-grade processor on the market — has become the transportation industry’s AI engine of choice for the new generation of NEVs, robotaxis, shuttles and trucks. Designed to meet stringent industry safety standards, the scalable DRIVE Orin platform is capable of performing up to 254 trillion operations per second, enabling it to power AI cockpits, as well as automated driving functions — simultaneously running numerous deep neural networks to provide the ultimate safety and reliability.

Beyond selecting NVIDIA DRIVE Orin for its EV fleets, BYD announced earlier this year that it is working with NVIDIA to enhance the in-vehicle experience by bringing the NVIDIA GeForce NOW™ cloud gaming service to its vehicles.

With industry-leading technologies such as the Blade Battery, DM-i super hybrid technology and the e-platform, BYD has sold over 3.7 million NEVs globally as of February 2023, while creating a better mobility experience for consumers.

To learn more about the latest technology breakthroughs in automotive and other industries, watch NVIDIA founder and CEO Jensen Huang’s GTC keynote. Register free for GTC to attend a number of sessions with NVIDIA and today’s mobility leaders.

Chinas entire AI industry relies on Nvidia GPUs. Without access to the latest Nvidia GPUs they can’t keep up, period.
 
Chinas entire AI industry relies on Nvidia GPUs. Without access to the latest Nvidia GPUs they can’t keep up, period.
But how China still keeps up? and make record of EVs every passing week?
 
But how China still keeps up? and make record of EVs every passing week?

Well what does that have to do with adding autonomous features to cars which is what this thread is all about? Infact a car doesn't even need to be an EV to drive itself.

It seems the ability to figure out how to make car drive on their own is a cutting edge technology China is definitely lacking in.

Having Chinese companies en-mass desperately turning to a US company for solutions is not something unusual.
 
Last edited:
Well what does that have to do with adding autonomous features to cars? Infact a car doesn't even need to be an EV to drive itself.

It seems the ability to figure out how to make car drive on their own is a cutting edge technology China is definitely lacking in.

Having Chinese companies en-mass desperately turning to a US company for solutions is not something unusual.
What are you smoking?
 
Chinas entire AI industry relies on Nvidia GPUs. Without access to the latest Nvidia GPUs they can’t keep up, period.


BaiduApollo.png

^^Baidu Apollo also on the Nvidia DRIVE list...but shhh..let them think it is all indigenous.

Making the average man in China happy!!

 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom