Joe Shearer
PROFESSIONAL
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2009
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Blood will out. However much I tried, it finally was impossible to stay calm and serene.
Your point is clear. An explanation seems to be in order. I would hate to give offence when I don't wish to, even by mistake. So if I have comparisons to make, I tend to make them, in this case, for instance, with other similar fora.
I don't frequent Indian fora in general; in fact, the very, very few, three in number, and a fourth Nepali one, are run by liberals or leftists, very young people whose writings keep me going. Otherwise I tend to confine myself to ATP, where I read and don't write any more; PTH, where I read regularly but contribute comments very, very occasionally; and this.
PTH is home, in a way. I feel very funny when Pakistanis gravely instruct me about Pakistan and how things are done over here and what means what to whom. The class of people I have encountered on PTH are easily those whom I would respect under all circumstances, totally without regard to their nationality. That these couple of dozen or more regulars are classy is beyond cavil; it is humbling that in times past, they used to read and appreciate my posts. But PTH gives me enormous hope for the future. No matter what happens elsewhere, no matter what the headlines say, no matter how grim the anchors look, as long as there is one Raza Rumi, one Yasser Hamdani, or Bloody Civilian, or A. A. Khalid, or Bin Ismail, or that thorn in every Indian's side, PMA, or Tilism, or Raza Raja left alive, there is no doubt in my mind that Pakistan has a bright and beautiful future. Things can't go wrong when such bright intellects grace a nation's discourses.
Sadly, you may be right. But I have had very strong friendships with the gentlemen mentioned above, without having met a single one of them even once. So - and this is hopeful - you may not be entirely right!
Similarly, when I encounter comments by you, or for that matter, by Niaz or T Faz or Agnostic Muslim, or that rich treasure-house of information and knowledge, Fatman17, I pause and try to relate it to these comments after considerable consideration; it is not so easy to relate to some others.
I don't know how to say this. But from my left-of-centre point of view, a point of view neutral to religious or cultural animosities, it does seem to me that Indian suspicion and fear of Pakistan is a recent phenomenon. I would go so far as to a post-Kargil phenomenon. Partly because our media are very strong, and manage to mould public opinion as it desires.
The media, along with the Congress Party, propagated a myth about Jinnah which is still the conventional view of the formation of Pakistan, but which still did not lead to a hatred for Pakistan and Pakistanis, only a virtuous indignation that the whole was sundered; it obscured the betrayal of the Indian Army in 62 by the politicians and by our own generals; and it drove public opinion to a fever pitch in 99, again in 08.
It was on these two occasions that Pakistan, the land of Hanif Mohammed, and Imran Khan, and Wasim Akram and Waqar Yunus, and Inzamam ul Haq, and a thousand other illuminated and godlike beings, to speak of only one clear point of contact, became for those who are influenced unduly by the media a permanent enemy, traitors who had waited for us to raise the hand of friendship, who had waited for us to come forward with a smile, and had then rewarded our trust and effort at friendship with treachery.
I think Kargil, staged at any time other than when Vajpayee went to Islamabad, might have caused less fury; the juxtaposition of the two events was the deepest part of the wound.
It isn't clear what you are saying here. Who is saying what? I only recognised 'Freedom' and 'Atoot Ang', presumably referring to Kashmiri separatist and the BJP/Sangh Parivar; who's supposed to be saying 'let bygones be bygones'?
I might have put the matter in harsher terms, but fair enough.
Mumble on, it is. So be it. But no regrets. A thousand things could happen if people listened to each other, but your prognosis rings sadly true.
More than his DNA; his heritage is at stake.
My only comment: let's not blame Gunner; he's all right. He was following a recent trend.
I must share with you an irony. On PTH, except for PMA Sahib, I am the most vocal advocate of banning Indian trolls. Of late, I've given up, because the members there have become adept troll-fighters. Each of them. And using no vulgarism or threats.
If I prove you wrong, do I get an apology? Be aware that it will take only a few seconds to prove you wrong.
This is not the way I see it. I have taken part lately in each and every case of these historical, and sometimes pre-historical discussions. If you want to know what it looks like from the other side, just go to the first few posts of this thread and see what I have said.
There have been some, one section of the Indian commenters, who denied that present-day Pakistanis had any links or connections with the people who built the IVC. This is silly and contrary to the evidence; there has been no major change since the Holocene age.
Their reason for saying so was their seizing on the occasional racist claims of some Pakistanis, who have claimed that they are of Arabic, Turkish or Persian, or of other Central Asian descent, subtly implying some racial superiority. These claims are as silly and contrary as those of their Indian counter-parts.
On the other hand, it has been the single-minded effort of many of the Pakistani commenters to establish that the present-day dwellers of the Indus Valley are in every respect different from the dwellers of the rest of the sub-continent. This is palpably wrong and contradicted by the best scientific evidence; not only by the original Cavalli-Sforza study, but ironically enough the very same extended study conducted by a Pakistani team, and cited by a super-patriot who wished to establish this genetic separation.
What are we to do in these circumstances? Keep quiet out of a sense of obligation to our forum hosts, or speak up to correct an egregious error being conveyed to us for whatever reason?
If we now re-visit your formulation, by denying Pakistanis any connection to their past and its a plain insult, it does seem to be inverted. It does seem to be fairer to say that by denying Indians any connection to their past, it's a plain insult. One, it might be added, that has been taken up mildly.
As Indushek has made it clear, his advice to me was to abstain from intervention in cases where the exchanges had lost dignity and decorum, as it did not seem that I would be able to contribute to such unruly threads. You may look it up for yourself by tracking Indushek's mail interventions.
As you mentioned me in this connection, presumably I too have a right to respond to the five questions you put to Indushek, not because you have any prescriptive right to arraign any other member on such charges, but because leaving them unanswered may lead to further insinuations and slurs:
At the end of the day, your chargesheet lays yourself open to the first four of the charges levelled against Indushek.
Apart from seeking and offering explanations for each other's behaviour, and apart from taking high-handed attitudes, it might be more to the point if we were to improve the tone of the discussions with less personal advice and greater attention to the quality of our inputs. I have issues with those, and wish that a fraction of the attention that has been paid to atmospherics had been paid to solid fact and information content. Without that, this forum becomes another Chowk, where 98% of the exchanges are personal insults, devoid of any meaningful content.
Since you have claimed proprietorial rights, with whatever sanction from the administration, you will no doubt claim and assume responsibility henceforth for improvements that are desperately needed.
Your point is clear. An explanation seems to be in order. I would hate to give offence when I don't wish to, even by mistake. So if I have comparisons to make, I tend to make them, in this case, for instance, with other similar fora.
I don't frequent Indian fora in general; in fact, the very, very few, three in number, and a fourth Nepali one, are run by liberals or leftists, very young people whose writings keep me going. Otherwise I tend to confine myself to ATP, where I read and don't write any more; PTH, where I read regularly but contribute comments very, very occasionally; and this.
PTH is home, in a way. I feel very funny when Pakistanis gravely instruct me about Pakistan and how things are done over here and what means what to whom. The class of people I have encountered on PTH are easily those whom I would respect under all circumstances, totally without regard to their nationality. That these couple of dozen or more regulars are classy is beyond cavil; it is humbling that in times past, they used to read and appreciate my posts. But PTH gives me enormous hope for the future. No matter what happens elsewhere, no matter what the headlines say, no matter how grim the anchors look, as long as there is one Raza Rumi, one Yasser Hamdani, or Bloody Civilian, or A. A. Khalid, or Bin Ismail, or that thorn in every Indian's side, PMA, or Tilism, or Raza Raja left alive, there is no doubt in my mind that Pakistan has a bright and beautiful future. Things can't go wrong when such bright intellects grace a nation's discourses.
Sadly, you may be right. But I have had very strong friendships with the gentlemen mentioned above, without having met a single one of them even once. So - and this is hopeful - you may not be entirely right!
Similarly, when I encounter comments by you, or for that matter, by Niaz or T Faz or Agnostic Muslim, or that rich treasure-house of information and knowledge, Fatman17, I pause and try to relate it to these comments after considerable consideration; it is not so easy to relate to some others.
I don't know how to say this. But from my left-of-centre point of view, a point of view neutral to religious or cultural animosities, it does seem to me that Indian suspicion and fear of Pakistan is a recent phenomenon. I would go so far as to a post-Kargil phenomenon. Partly because our media are very strong, and manage to mould public opinion as it desires.
The media, along with the Congress Party, propagated a myth about Jinnah which is still the conventional view of the formation of Pakistan, but which still did not lead to a hatred for Pakistan and Pakistanis, only a virtuous indignation that the whole was sundered; it obscured the betrayal of the Indian Army in 62 by the politicians and by our own generals; and it drove public opinion to a fever pitch in 99, again in 08.
It was on these two occasions that Pakistan, the land of Hanif Mohammed, and Imran Khan, and Wasim Akram and Waqar Yunus, and Inzamam ul Haq, and a thousand other illuminated and godlike beings, to speak of only one clear point of contact, became for those who are influenced unduly by the media a permanent enemy, traitors who had waited for us to raise the hand of friendship, who had waited for us to come forward with a smile, and had then rewarded our trust and effort at friendship with treachery.
I think Kargil, staged at any time other than when Vajpayee went to Islamabad, might have caused less fury; the juxtaposition of the two events was the deepest part of the wound.
It isn't clear what you are saying here. Who is saying what? I only recognised 'Freedom' and 'Atoot Ang', presumably referring to Kashmiri separatist and the BJP/Sangh Parivar; who's supposed to be saying 'let bygones be bygones'?
I might have put the matter in harsher terms, but fair enough.
Mumble on, it is. So be it. But no regrets. A thousand things could happen if people listened to each other, but your prognosis rings sadly true.
More than his DNA; his heritage is at stake.
I sir found the cure for such (not) so bright posts long ago and i think i shared it with u some time back.
Thats exactly what happened to me some three weeks back when the barrage of Chinese Indian war on PDF with necessary spices from third front happened. The level of hatred just leaves a nauseating feeling in ones senses as a whole. Little do people realize that words on a single post (among many) in a single thread (among many) in a forum (among many) wouldn't change or alter the course of events, well thats taking it too far.
Anyway as i told i am spending lesser time and keep away from these threads meant to flame and i am the happier no doubt. I am not that experienced to give suggestions to some one like u but better keep away from these kind of threads. They serve no purpose but to satiate the egos of some inconsequential fellers. The disappointing thing is that i respect Gunner as he has never posted crap as far as i know. May be he wanted to post it thinking it to be new thing or i don't know. Too much indecision on my part i agree.
So long.
My only comment: let's not blame Gunner; he's all right. He was following a recent trend.
I must share with you an irony. On PTH, except for PMA Sahib, I am the most vocal advocate of banning Indian trolls. Of late, I've given up, because the members there have become adept troll-fighters. Each of them. And using no vulgarism or threats.
If I prove you wrong, do I get an apology? Be aware that it will take only a few seconds to prove you wrong.
This is not the way I see it. I have taken part lately in each and every case of these historical, and sometimes pre-historical discussions. If you want to know what it looks like from the other side, just go to the first few posts of this thread and see what I have said.
There have been some, one section of the Indian commenters, who denied that present-day Pakistanis had any links or connections with the people who built the IVC. This is silly and contrary to the evidence; there has been no major change since the Holocene age.
Their reason for saying so was their seizing on the occasional racist claims of some Pakistanis, who have claimed that they are of Arabic, Turkish or Persian, or of other Central Asian descent, subtly implying some racial superiority. These claims are as silly and contrary as those of their Indian counter-parts.
On the other hand, it has been the single-minded effort of many of the Pakistani commenters to establish that the present-day dwellers of the Indus Valley are in every respect different from the dwellers of the rest of the sub-continent. This is palpably wrong and contradicted by the best scientific evidence; not only by the original Cavalli-Sforza study, but ironically enough the very same extended study conducted by a Pakistani team, and cited by a super-patriot who wished to establish this genetic separation.
What are we to do in these circumstances? Keep quiet out of a sense of obligation to our forum hosts, or speak up to correct an egregious error being conveyed to us for whatever reason?
If we now re-visit your formulation, by denying Pakistanis any connection to their past and its a plain insult, it does seem to be inverted. It does seem to be fairer to say that by denying Indians any connection to their past, it's a plain insult. One, it might be added, that has been taken up mildly.
As Indushek has made it clear, his advice to me was to abstain from intervention in cases where the exchanges had lost dignity and decorum, as it did not seem that I would be able to contribute to such unruly threads. You may look it up for yourself by tracking Indushek's mail interventions.
As you mentioned me in this connection, presumably I too have a right to respond to the five questions you put to Indushek, not because you have any prescriptive right to arraign any other member on such charges, but because leaving them unanswered may lead to further insinuations and slurs:
- Explain how this post had any good intentions?
- Were you simply seeking opinions of Pakistanis?
- Promoting tolerance and friendship?
- Promoting genuine discussion?
- Or just plain old gang trolling.
- It was intended to avert a flame war by guiding me away from responding to those whose language and approach was clearly inflammatory;
- No, it was not seeking an opinion from either a Pakistani or an Indian. As you and everybody else is well aware, not every post is a seeking of the opinion of others.
- It was an attempt at promoting tolerance and friendship of the highest order.
- It was in precisely the same fashion a promotion of genuine discussion, made at the highest moral and ethical level.
- This accusation should never have been made.
At the end of the day, your chargesheet lays yourself open to the first four of the charges levelled against Indushek.
Apart from seeking and offering explanations for each other's behaviour, and apart from taking high-handed attitudes, it might be more to the point if we were to improve the tone of the discussions with less personal advice and greater attention to the quality of our inputs. I have issues with those, and wish that a fraction of the attention that has been paid to atmospherics had been paid to solid fact and information content. Without that, this forum becomes another Chowk, where 98% of the exchanges are personal insults, devoid of any meaningful content.
Since you have claimed proprietorial rights, with whatever sanction from the administration, you will no doubt claim and assume responsibility henceforth for improvements that are desperately needed.
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