Despite frantic effort by Lockheed Martin India ditches F-21 for LCA

[Baba_Yaga]

Fair enough. The Indians consider the Rafale to be a better fighter than F-21. I still do believe there is also some level of politics involved in this decision.

Maybe, but more than the Americans, it is the French who will be pissed. It's not like IAF love for Rafale isn't well know, Lockheed must have known their chances were slim. In any case, we have better priorities than pleasing countries. France is just like any other country. They are businessmen who sell weapons to both sides( I believe Pakistan also operates French submarines and jets), so we really owe them nothing. We made the tender, we cancelled it, nothing more to it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Lockheed Martin went very deep to tempt IAF to opt for the new super F-16. IAF instead wants to go for locally produced fighters. I think this choice stems from PAF joint venture with China. JF-17 has a deep impact on IAF psyche. Especially after 27th. IAF wants to prove to its audience that it can match a domestic project. Probably the Indians would argue that PAF already operates F-16, but the F-21 was supposed to be a completely different overhauled fighter. The Americans stand redfaced as IAF initially opted for Rafale instead of opting for F-18. This is indeed a double blow.

Yes, more or less. However, there is also a desire to impress on all three services the need to give oxygen to native design and development, and to lift the products of this to a level where the vast bulk of the requirements could be met. There is a feeling of discomfort, inside and outside the services, that unrealistic GSQRs are set, and then nothing fits these; sometimes, GSQRs are set that favour one line of development only (like the specification for future tanks for induction); sometimes, finally, GSQRs that are met are put out of reach by mid-course enhancements. What would have fitted the original does not fit the enhancement.

 

[Dalit]

Maybe, but more than the Americans, it is the French who will be pissed. It's not like IAF love for Rafale isn't well know, Lockheed must have known their chances were slim. In any case, we have better priorities than pleasing countries. France is just like any other country. They are businessmen who sell weapons to both sides( I believe Pakistan also operates French submarines and jets), so we really owe them nothing. We made the tender, we cancelled it, nothing more to it.

The Americans also threw in the carrot for a future F-35 deal. Would India still opt for F-35 if offered?

 

[dbc]

That sounds like a good face saving excuse.

Let's take the Indian word. The Indians claim that LCA is a good fighter. That means they have more trust in LCA than the F-21.

sure, by your logic the LCA is better than PAF F-16s and way better than the JF-17s.

 

[zhxy]

The su-57 is a great plane. It is much better than the Su-35. Maybe the su-57 is inferior to the F-35 but it is certainly stronger than the F-21. Americans are very fastidious and will never TOT for India.

 

[Joe Shearer]

That is an even a bigger slap in the face of Indian ally US. The Americans claim that the F-21 would have incorporated 5th gen tech. Despite these lofty claims the IAF simply ditched the F-21 offer. Did the IAF not buy the American claims? Ditching F-21 with 5th gen tech for something like LCA is not a small thing. If we are to believe American claims the F-21 would have been an absolute killer fighter.

I am very glad that PAF started a JV with China. The PAF carefully selected the components and is able to produce the fighter to a very large extent domestically. The F-16 will eventually be phased out in coming years as more advanced versions of JF-17 and project Azm become available.

I think India also hopes it can emulate JF-17 export success. The American had a lot riding on F-21. After losing MMRCA tender the US was adamant to sell India its fighters.

India does not worry excessively about Chinese technology and its development in other hands. That is a common error made by Pakistani analysts. The metrics that have emerged in some cases have vindicated this indifference. Nor is India particularly gripped by export anxiety.

The core concern is and will remain the need to converge the needs of the Indian services with the availability of products from Indian technology.

 

[Dalit]

sure, by your logic the LCA is better than PAF F-16s and way better than the JF-17s.

That is not my logic, but your words being put in my mouth.

You obviously don't like it when I say that India chose LCA over F-21. You say it is not about inferiority or superiority, but surely the Indians must have weighed all options including capabilities. You don't just opt for a fighter that your air force is going to use for the unforeseeable future. The IAF has faith in LCA and that is a big part of their decision.

Now that you have made the remarks. The newer JF-17 blocks of PAF are in many areas definitely better than F-16 fighters. That should also be no secret.

 

[Baba_Yaga]

The Americans also threw in the carrot for a future F-35 deal. Would India still opt for F-35 if offered?

I highly doubt F35 would be offered until it is not really next gen tech(like 10 years from now). I believe a lot of countries might have 5th gen fighters by then. More importantly, I am absolutely sure they will never agree to local production for F35, so yea, i don't think we will buy it in large numbers even if it is offered. We might buy like 36 fighters as we have done for the Rafale if the economic situation is good. On the other hand, if F35 is offered for local production(almost 0% probability), I see no reason not to go for it.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Wow that is truly incredible if true. What if Donald Trump doesn't lose second term?

He is malleable enough to bring back on board.

 

[Baba_Yaga]

The su-57 is a great plane. It is much better than the Su-35. Maybe the su-57 is inferior to the F-35 but it is certainly stronger than the F-21. Americans are very fastidious and will never TOT for India.

Su57 is not at all a 5th gen jet in its current state. I am personally really hoping they improve upon it. If they can do that, it would be like a wet dream came true. Russian jets are a lot cheaper than western jets and I'm pretty sure Russia won't say no to TOT and Make in India.

 

[PakFactor]

That is an even a bigger slap in the face of Indian ally US. The Americans claim that the F-21 would have incorporated 5th gen tech. Despite these lofty claims the IAF simply ditched the F-21 offer. Did the IAF not buy the American claims? Ditching F-21 with 5th gen tech for something like LCA is not a small thing. If we are to believe American claims the F-21 would have been an absolute killer fighter.

I am very glad that PAF started a JV with China. The PAF carefully selected the components and is able to produce the fighter to a very large extent domestically. The F-16 will eventually be phased out in coming years as more advanced versions of JF-17 and project Azm become available.

I think India also hopes it can emulate JF-17 export success. The American had a lot riding on F-21. After losing MMRCA tender the US was adamant to sell India its fighters.

I would say @MastanKhan assessment is on point. IAF has seen over the years what the costs are going American — when Pakistan fought we were hampered by sudden blockade of parts to maintain our fleet during wartime and peacetime. Unless you bend the knee and tow American policies and can’t pursue your own.

The Indians have also seen the benefits of JV with like minded allies (e.g. Pakistan & China) and the fruit it bared in the name of JF-17 and they know with Russia they can have a future LCA on steroids.

 

[ziaulislam]

Hi,

Here is what I would like to share---. The indians are not idiots---let me repeat it one more time---indians are not idiots---.

By going with the F16 BLK70---they would have alowed the US to take control of their offensive fighting capabilities---and no sane nation would do something like that unless it is Pakistan air force---.

The indians weighed the pluses and minuses of the F16 to the Tejas and assessed that a properly upgraded Tejas is not too far behind the F16 BLK 70 or the F21---as it is tagged to be---.

India cannot be and will not be dictated what the US orders in a time of crisis---.

Bottomline---india will hardly lose sleep over this non issue at this time---.

I guess now you understand why PAF walked away from f16, rafale and typhoon ...

 

[LeGenD]

Fair enough. The Indians consider the Rafale to be a better fighter than F-21. I still do believe there is also some level of politics involved in this decision. That is my personal opinion.

Look.

When you are the customer, and you walk into a big store to buy stuff, you do not necessarily go for the biggest and baddest stuff out there. You look for stuff which appeal to you in personal capacity. This is the point.

When it comes to manufacturing aircraft, Lockheed Martin is miles ahead of anything French can produce and offer. On 26-02-19, even F-16 MLU (Block 40 class) proved more than a match for much hyped Indian-operated Su-30 MKI in capable hands. Imagine what Block 70/72 would be capable of, and F-21 is supposed to be a bigger leap with stealthy attributes and more.

Indians are on much better terms with the French and feel comfortable dealing with them. Indians are absolutely weary of American politics and want to ensure their political independence. To their credit, they are nobody's poodle which is a good thing.

 

[ziaulislam]

F16 PAF have all came before jf17 was in production

 

[Dalit]

Look.

When you are the customer, and you walk into a big store to buy stuff, you do not necessarily go for the biggest and baddest stuff out there. You look for stuff which appeal to you in personal capacity. This is the point.

When it comes to manufacturing aircraft, Lockheed Martin is miles ahead of anything French can produce and offer. Even F-16 MLU (Block 40 class) was more than a match for much hyped Su-30 MKI in capable hands. Imagine what Block 70/72 would be capable of, and F-21 is supposed to be a bigger leap with stealthy attributes.

Indians are on much better terms with the French and feel comfortable dealing with them. Indians are absolutely weary of American politics and want to ensure their political independence. To their credit, they are nobody's poodle which is a good thing.

Yet the IAF has not opted for F-21 despite all the hefty claims and that is exactly my point.

I agree. The IAF has weighed all pros and cons before going for LCA. That credit goes to India. Obviously politics was also a major consideration. American hardware always comes with strings attached. Indian officials won't say this too loud, but this is always in the back of your mind whilst buying hardware from Uncle Sam.