What is wrong with the Rafale?

Discussion in 'Air Warfare' started by sonicboom, Apr 4, 2010.

  1. KEETARP

    KEETARP FULL MEMBER

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    Its not about availability of technology ,
    Tech has always been there but still
    No HMS
    NO IRST
    NO Folding wings for Marine M
    which are relatively less complex things to acheive

    Even STEALTHY version of rafale were planned
    Ares Homepage

    A Stealthier Rafale?
    Posted by Bill Sweetman at 4/5/2010 5:30 AM CDT

    Our colleagues at Air & Cosmos report that the French government is funding a demonstration of improved stealth technology for the Dassault Rafale fighter, with a focus on active cancellation techniques. The story itself is not online but is being discussed at the Key Military Forum.
    Active cancellation means preventing a radar from detecting a target by firing back a deception signal with the same frequency as the reflection, but precisely one-half wavelength out of phase with it. Result: the returned energy reaching the radar has no frequency and can't be detected.
    It's quite as difficult as it sounds. Some reports have suggested that the so called SP-3 or ZSR-62 "radar jamming device" planned in the early days of the B-2 program was an active cancellation system. It did not work and was scrapped in 1987-88. In 2005, Northrop Grumman paid $62 million to settle a False Claims Act case involving the system.
    This may not be the first French attempt to implement AC on the Rafale. At the Paris air show in 1997, I interviewed a senior engineer at what was then Dassault Electronique, about the Rafale's Spectra jamming system. He remarked that Spectra used "stealthy jamming modes that not only have a saturating effect, but make the aircraft invisible... There are some very specific techniques to obtain the signature of a real LO aircraft."
    "You mean active cancellation?" I asked. The engineer suddenly looked like someone who deeply regretted what he had just said, and declined any further comment. (As Hobbes once put it after pouncing on an unsuspecting Calvin: "We tigers live for moments like that."*)
    The fact that a new demonstrator is being contemplated suggests that the technology may not have been up to the job the first time round - but since AC depends on electronics and processing, that picture may have changed. MBDA and Thales, which absorbed Dassault Electronique and is now the prime contractor on Spectra, have since confirmed that they are working on active cancellation for missiles.
    The whole Spectra program has been a major venture, including the construction of four new indoor test ranges, including the colossal Solange RCS range discussed in Ares in 2007. That facility will probably play a major role in the new demonstrator program.


    Question is regarding Funding of the whole development of RAFALE , who is gonna provide it ???? .
    Dassault has failed to procure foreign order for Rafale , French air force is more than happy with Block2, who is going to fund it????????.
    US companies have smartly developed their platforms by getting funds from buyers and constantly upgrading it.
    UAE payed for block60 , USN paid for Block2 Super Bug. Singapore paid for F15 silent eagle.
    Rafale has no such orders.

    Its scarcity of Funding itself , Dassault too is more concerned about its Civilian Private Jets program than Rafale itself
     
  2. gambit

    gambit PROFESSIONAL

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    The major problem with the SPECTRA-like method of active cancellation is that the system must sample a portion of the seeking radar's pulse train...

    Radar signal characteristics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Basically...The transmitter turn itself on...Wait for a specified period of time...Then turn itself off. The rise and fall in power level constitute a pulse. Several pulses in a sequence make up a pulse train. How long is that sequence depends on the radar's intention and design. The appropriate analogy is a real locomotive with the gaps between sections.

    A sample of several pulses must be studied. If the system take too short a sample in order to study the pulse train's signal characteristics to create a credible cancellation, the rest of the pulse train or next pulse train will reveal the aircraft. If the system take too long a sample, then the aircraft will be revealed anyway by the current pulse train. The seeking and therefore hostile radar can change the characteristics of each pulse train from one to the next.

    The hostile radar can change the PRF from one train to the next, forcing the SPECTRA-like system to constantly recalibrate itself. The hostile radar is employing the tactic called 'PRF jittering'. The 'jittering' technique is common when the radar is operating in an electronically dense environment BUT the 'jittering' sequence is predictable. The radar using this technique will remember the exact sequence of the many PRFs and will perform the appropriate correlation to eliminate unwanted signals that may come from other radars in the vicinity. Civilian airports are places of where predictable 'PRF jittering' technique is used.

    But for military purposes like ECM and ECCM, predictability is not always desirable and a 'non-cooperative target' is always looking for predictability. If the 'PRF jittering' sequence is known, this SPECTRA-like system will work as advertised. If the 'PRF jittering' sequence is not known, the system will create many anomalous echoes for the seeking radar, one moment the system successfully canceled the pulse train but with the new pulse train with a different pulse train characteristics the system must resample, which at the very least will make the seeking radar operator suspicious. The goal is to make the operator unaware, not suspicious.

    A SPECTRA-like system is a good idea in application but not against first-tier militaries. Some second-tier militaries can manage to purchase first-tier radars and they will find the aircraft. The balance between sampling and response is what make the SPECTRA system difficult to employ precisely because of the unpredictability of potential adversaries.
     
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  3. KEETARP

    KEETARP FULL MEMBER

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    Dassault has been foccusing on updating the Digital threat library of SPECTRA , they have for quite sometime trying to get signals from F15 and Su30 aircraft.
    What if library has record of -Pulse repetition frequency (PRF) and Jittering esp the potential threats in future .
    SPECTRA immediately recognizes threat and Jams it .

    Active Radar cancellation was Tested along with conventional Saturation Effect to effectively Jam the aircraft and preserve detection

    Spectra's active jamming subsystem ie phased-array antennas located at the roots of the canards , these EW transmit antennas can produce a pencil beam compatible with the accuracy of the receiver system, concentrating power on the threat while minimizing the chances of detection.
     
  4. gambit

    gambit PROFESSIONAL

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    This is why the SPECTRA is best against second and third tier militaries. First tier militaries are moving towards the much more versatile AESA radar system.

    http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/6321/1/03-0111.pdf
    The above source is talking about two processes: subarray partitioning and subarray choreography. I commented about them before here so you might want to look it up.

    But essentially...

    [​IMG]

    There are nine logical radars in ( c ). Each capable of performing independent action. An AESA radar looking for a SPECTRA equipped Rafale will find it through the use of multiple radars, from the same main array. The capability of the AESA is dependent upon the technological sophistication of the country wielding it, of course. There will no digital library possible for the SPECTRA to remember.
     
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  5. MZUBAIR

    MZUBAIR SENIOR MEMBER

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    So problems in Rafeal are.....
    1) design issues...
    2) stealth capability, electronic warfare, sensor fusion, and network centric concepts etc missing.
    3) AESA radar missing
    4) And ofcourse cost is too much.

    __________________________________________
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2010
  6. MZUBAIR

    MZUBAIR SENIOR MEMBER

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    I think SAAB Gripen and Rafeal hav problems.
    For Indian MRCA .....they are officially laready down, but India keeping them for political reasons to stop tech transfar to Pakistan, where as Mig 35 is currently in development and information about its specs may change. F-16 and F-18 would be best to chose, but India dont want to dance under the control of USA.

    Eurofighter last opion, but dont know wehter India could ever become is manufacturing artner or not.
     
  7. SBD-3

    SBD-3 ELITE MEMBER

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    so what do you think? a french disliking Rafale?......:tdown:
     
  8. gambit

    gambit PROFESSIONAL

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    Errr...To be fair...When the B-2, F-22 and F-35 came out, they pretty much make your list of 'problems' or 'wrongs' applicable to everything else, including ours. :lol:
     
  9. ptldM3

    ptldM3 SENIOR MEMBER

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    I dont think i would take Strategypage as a serious source, with that being said one thing i don't understand about the Rafale is its price tage of $90 million, consider this, the Super Hornet is $60 million, so what constitutes the outrageous price tage?
     
  10. Creder

    Creder SENIOR MEMBER

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    i think they give you like a years supply of booze with it
     
  11. ptldM3

    ptldM3 SENIOR MEMBER

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    It would have to be the good stuff :tup:
     
  12. KEETARP

    KEETARP FULL MEMBER

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    I cant find any data on this page as you said- It would be nice if you Post it here or link the address.

    About the post
    If you are talking about ,New generation LPI phased array Radars where each module functions as an independent Transmitter and Receiver unit ,then Yes its true.
    SPECTRA and so does every other RWR are of little use.

    But it holds true for all current gen fighters including F22 simply bcoz of frequency variability and jumping of LPI radar which happens too quickly ,it will be difficult to detect signal which could be termed as meaningful for detection by passive sensors including ALR/94.

    But LPI radar's performance are also limited on how much sophisticated Processors and software of Radar are ,
    I mean each Beam have certain amount of Backlobes and Sidelobes and for how much time each beam has peak spike to be detected as meaningful signal out of radio noise signal.

    Biggest catch is None of second world countries and only USA of First world countries manufacture sophisticated MMIC chips on large scale for Military use.
     
  13. gambit

    gambit PROFESSIONAL

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    I did post a source that contain the keywords 'subarray partitioning'. Here is another...

    AN/APG Active Electronically Scanned Array AESA
    Notice the plural references to subarrays and beams. The image I presented is to better visually illustrate the versatility of the subarray partitioning and subarray choreography processes. But if you are searching for the details of those processes, I cannot help you.

    Low probability of intercept (LPI) mode can be used by the whole array or by subarray but individual T/R modules would be too weak of an output to be useful. Phased arrays works best when all or a group of modules exploit the wave superposition principle to create a wavefront and a beam.

    True that it is possible for the F-22's ALR-94 to miss some LPI scan techniques, but then again the F-22 and its relatives are designed to be very low reflective with the freqs those LPI scan operate in anyway. It is not unusual to have a greater reach in passive than in active sensors. We could see (passive) much further than we could speak (active). So if there is a seeking radar in LPI mode most likely it will not detect the F-22 anyway. If the adversary knows that he is going to be facing the F-22 then LPI mode is the last technique to use.
     
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  14. Parashuram1

    Parashuram1 FULL MEMBER

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    Rafales IMO are also underpowered slightly unlike the previous Mirage Snecma M88 engines which were more powerful. Despite great aesthetics, if this article speaks the truth then I do hope that my government considers such drawbacks.

    It won't have much of an issue considering the size and war doctrine (which we don't have on active basis), but the price tag is worrisome as compared to our present F/A-18s and we are better off replacing them with something similar in capabilities and reasonably priced.
     
  15. pak-yes

    pak-yes SENIOR MEMBER

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    Why do even want to Replace hornet's in the First Place?