Was Jinnah's Pakistan worth the fight?

[salman nedian]

To quantify things -
The total number of muslims who migrated to Pakistan against the total number of muslims who decided to stay back is the ACTUAL guage to estimate the prevailing muslim consensus on their idea of Islam's Azaadi.

Understood?

No way! Actual gauge to estimate the Muslim consensus over Pakistan is to see what is the percentage of Muslims in sub-continent who are living in Pakistan or Bangladesh. vast majority of Muslims living in India too supported Pakistan with their votes even they knew their areas wont be included in Pakistan.

 

[EjazR]

Surely Allah will not ask about goats, cows or sheep.but there are other factors which should also be considered. In Pakistan there has never been Muslim-Non Muslim violence unlike India where huge anti Muslim riots are norms.

Indian Secularism supports inter-religion marriages which to be really very honest is not acceptable in Islam you accept or not.Indian media portrays Muslims as traitors or evil elements of society.

I respectfully disagree with you statement that there has been no muslim non-muslim violence in Pakistan at all, I'm sure many examples can be found, particularly on Christians. But what you can't disagree is the fact that there has been large scale muslim-muslim violence and still ongoing.

Like I said earlier, even if you combine ALL the deaths of Indian muslims in riots after the 1951; 99% of the time the riots are politically motivated in India. The biggest of these episodes were the mumbai riots around a 1000-1500 people overall died and the second was Gujarat riots where around 2000 people overall died.

They pale in comparison to the combined violent deaths in Pakistan which include East Pakistani deaths as well as the current scenario. I hate using this comparisons as even a single loss of life of a Muslim or non-Muslim is just reprehensible but it was just to open your eyes to the reality.
Of course everything is not rosy for Muslims, but this is part and parcel of a progress. Like I keep mentioning, no one is denying Pakistan's existence so there is no need to feel insecure about it. Just justifying Pakistan's existence because of the "status" of Indian Muslims is unnecessary.

 

[psychedelic_renegade]

You cannot compare Ahmadies to Dalits, that would not only be the most inappropriate comparison but also stupid to divulge in from an intellectual point of view. I really do not understand your argument and I think this issue is far too different to be discussed here.

I'm not comparing Ahmadis with Dalits, all I'm trying to say that India has it's fare share of problems as does Pakistan or any other country, the majority of people is busy to make their ends meet, they are not the mass murdering, dalit busting, muslim oppressing, mongoloid haters as they made out to be.

You are highly uninformed and do not know what your are taking about. The percentage of population might have decreases in Pakistan but the actual amount has grown. Here read this and learn:

Please read my post, I said minority population has increased both in numbers and percentage in India, contrary to other sub-continent countries.

As for immigration to Pakistan, we catch different kinds of people trying to enter Pakistan to this day, just recently a couple of burmese and nepalese were entering Pakistan through India. Similarly our Mohajir have family members who do visit Pakistan, in my neighborhood alone we had a few Indian Muslim families who moved from India in the 90's. They were from Bombay and decided to move after the incidents that occurred.

I dont think this deserve an answer, please read your original post where you claimed you been facing migration problems and muslims of India running to you for your help and it ultimately boils down to nepali, mohajir and indians living in your vicinity. :s Probably they have warrant issued on them in India.

Well 3 years does not make a big difference and I can also provide you with a recent news article that outlines the same. Lets just leave it at that.

Well let me talk about only my state as I don't know how things being carried out in other states. Recently West Bengal govt gave AMU free land to set up a campus in Murshidabad, I think they will start taking students next year onwards. That will be a major boast towards minority education. Also we have Al-Amin mission in Kolkata for last 10 years or so, many of my colleagues in the multinational I'm working are students of that mission. WB govt even passing a bill for reservations for minorities, not sure about the percentage. See govt can go to a certain extent, but the reforms has to done by the educated ones among the minorities themselves. Neither Army nor GoI or private companies has bias towards minorities, only competency matters.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I have 2 questions...

Why indian muslims who make the largest minority the most illeterate?
And most Poor in all of india?

2)Why people involved in anti muslim riots o gujrat tht killed 5000 still not punished? or the criminals of orissa christian massacre?

3)Wat about samjhota express ,.... list will go on???

 

[EjazR]

@T-Faz

Do you seriously believe that ISI or the military establishment in general has in no way ever supported JI? There were the foremost fund gatherers for the "Jihad" in Kashmir post 90s. Its another story that the funds that were to be sent to the widows and children ended up in US bank accounts of Qazi Hussain. Is it also not true that Maududi was AGAINST this false "Jihad" in Kashmir when he declared this in 48 and again in 65? IF his advice was heeded, maybe things would be different.

CIA giving funds to JI did not happen without the knowledge of the ISI and other agencies. This was part of the promotion of Islamists to counter leftists and communists and the Pakistani military establishment encouraged this. Is it not true that whenever Islamists groups came to power in elections it was mostly under military dictators where elections are renowned for their rigging?

The point is that blaming JI is only half or less than half of the problem. As survey after survey have shown, these parties don't have any major public support in Pakistan. Still they are getting support from somewhere. These groups were used for geo-politics and now that they got a life of their own, you can't just blame them, but you have to blame those who allowed them to become what they are.

And the only reason why I mentioned JIHind was because I thought you didnt know that JI -organisation that maududi founded- also exists in India.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

It seems like that the author is a insane or on heavy dose of drugs.

The richest Muslim billionaire in this planet earth is an Indian who have worked and earned with his hard work and Imaan. In the field of business there are countless Muslims who are having big companies and are on the verge of being billionaire. And so called Islamic states has not provided any true Billionaires.

There are Indian Muslims all over the sports Irfan Pathan, Yusuf Pathan, Munaf Patel, Zaheer Khan, Sania Mirza, Nasser Hussain. Even Indian cricket team was under the leadership of a Muslim Muhammad Azharuudin. Now, he's a member of parliament.

In the films, entertainment, television, music the list is countless. Shah Rukh Khan, Aamir Khan, Salman Khan, Saif Ali Khan, Imran Khan, Imran Hashmi, Tabu, Madhubala, Wahida Rehman, Dilip kumar, AR Rehman, Abbas Mastan, Sajid khan, Farah Khan, Sazid Nadiawala, Fardeen Khan, Hussain, Muhhamad Rafi, Mahmood, Mahboob, Nasir Hussain the list goes on and on.

Muslims has reached the highest position in India and even become President of India.

You pick any area and the list goes on and on.

They are not facing 20 hours of power cuts, they are living in one of the top economies of the world, they are having one of the the biggest military power in the world, they live in a country which gives them fair chance to prove themselves and reach the top.

And within 10-15 years Indian Muslims will be having world's 3d largest military power, top economic power within top 5. More and more Muslims will become billionaire, cricket stars, film star or do what ever they want in life and enjoy the freedom in a free country.

They are happy and secure and progressing at present.

ANd they will be happy and secure and progressing in future too.

India Muslims 'have lowest rank' BBC
http://www.defence.pk/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=956234

Muslims in India are even more disadvantaged than low-caste Hindus, a report commissioned by the government in Delhi suggests.

The report says India's 138m Muslims are poorer and less educated and suffer from higher unemployment and greater mortality than other religious groups.

Details of the report - yet to be published - have been leaked to the local media.

Some ministers are already calling for affirmative action for Muslims.

The Hindu-nationalist BJP party has said it will oppose any system of quotas for Muslims.

Religious riots

BJP General Secretary Arun Jaitley said the Indian constitution does not allow for reservation on the basis of religion and the government should not use the report as a launch pad for religion-based reservation.

India currently implements reservations for disadvantaged castes, but not for religious groups.

Correspondents say India prides itself on being a pluralistic secular democracy. It is often pointed out that India is home to the world's biggest minority, and that there are more Muslims in India than in all of Pakistan, the BBC's Anu Anand in Delhi reports.

But our correspondent says it is unclear how far the government can go to improve Muslims' status in a country that has been torn apart by Hindu-Muslim riots, and has witnessed acts of terror widely blamed on Muslims.

 

[T-Faz]

I'm not comparing Ahmadis with Dalits, all I'm trying to say that India has it's fare share of problems as does Pakistan or any other country, the majority of people is busy to make their ends meet, they are not the mass murdering, dalit busting, muslim oppressing, mongoloid haters as they made out to be.

You are quick to accuse others of stereotyping but your arguments follow the pattern of one who has a stereotypical view. I agree with what you have said but I never accused Indians of anything.

Please read my post, I said minority population has increased both in numbers and percentage in India, contrary to other sub-continent countries.

Our minority population is growing too, refer to the 1952 census and compare it to today. The only difference is that the Muslim population boomed and it decreased our percentage, alternatively it increased yours.

I dont think this deserve an answer, please read your original post where you claimed you been facing migration problems and muslims of India running to you for your help and it ultimately boils down to nepali, mohajir and indians living in your vicinity. :s Probably they have warrant issued on them in India.

I do not think you understood what I said, I never said we are facing migration problems, I never stated this. The muslims of India have indeed asked for our help, do you not think that there are links established between different organizations.

That was very low for you to take that pathetic pot shot. I guess thats how you converse in a serious debate. Don't try and do that again, just because I will not stoop to your level does not mean that I am unable to answer.

Well late me talk about only my state as I don't know how things being carried out in other states. Recently West Bengal govt gave AMU free land to set up a campus in Murshidabad, I think they will start taking students next year onwards. That will be a major boast towards minority education. Also we have Al-Amin mission in Kolkata for last 10 years or so, many of my colleagues in the multinational I'm working are students of that mission. WB govt even passing a bill for reservations for minorities, not sure about the percentage. See govt can go to a certain extent, but the reforms has to by the educated ones among the minorities themselves. Neither Army nor GoI or private companies has bias towards minorities, only competency matters.

Well so does our government, our government opened a Synagogue on the behest of an old Jewish lady.

 

[Hulk]

Surely Allah will not ask about goats, cows or sheep.but there are other factors which should also be considered. In Pakistan there has never been Muslim-Non Muslim violence unlike India where huge anti Muslim riots are norms.

Indian Secularism supports inter-religion marriages which to be really very honest is not acceptable in Islam you accept or not.Indian media portrays Muslims as traitors or evil elements of society.

For violence to occur minority should feel strong enough to fight. When you know you can be butchered you do not try. The percentage of minority tells you how much faith they had on you.

 

[Raghu]

Just look at the audacity of this inane BDeshi writer....

If u consider India has become such a horrible place for India Muslims,then why u BDeshis sneak in to India in tens of thousand in numbers(by some other estimates it runs into few lakhs) every year and turn up far in cities like Mumbai and New Delhi.

Why u keep harping on the term Indian Muslim??

India Muslims isn't a homogeneous entity like an ethnic Bengali Muslims.

An Indian Muslim can be Punjabi,Gujarati,Bengali,Tamil ,Odia whatever depending on the Indian state he belongs.There socio economic also status differ in corresponding to the conditions of state they belong to.

If being Muslim alone was such a cohesive thing, then why u guys fought and got separated by west Pakistan.

And lastly, just look pathetic state of Bangladesh before talking about the poor condition of Muslims living in India.Tell me what are achievement of Bangladesh for its people all these year after partition ??

PS:Its a repeat post.I would repeat it 1000times if i come across a similar crap article.

 

[EjazR]

I have 2 questions...

Why indian muslims who make the largest minority the most illeterate?
And most Poor in all of india?

2)Why people involved in anti muslim riots o gujrat tht killed 5000 still not punished? or the criminals of orissa christian massacre?

3)Wat about samjhota express ,.... list will go on???

SC/STs are the least literate in India at 52%, muslims are around 59.1%. Besides it is quite variable from state to state. In atleast 10 states muslims have higher literacy rates than the state average mainly in the south.

2) Many people upto minister level and police officers have been arrested and some of them convicted. Recently Modi himself was called in for questioning. There is no doubt that it was blot in which 2000 people mainly muslim but also hindus were killed but many more displaced from their homes Similar is the case for Orissa.

3) Very unfortunate that the investigation is still stuck and no leads have come forth

But all this is still besides the point as I keep mentioning. The thread article might have had good intentions but had a wrong attitude to begin with.

 

[T-Faz]

Do you seriously believe that ISI or the military establishment in general has in no way ever supported JI? There were the foremost fund gatherers for the "Jihad" in Kashmir post 90s. Its another story that the funds that were to be sent to the widows and children ended up in US bank accounts of Qazi Hussain. Is it also not true that Maududi was AGAINST this false "Jihad" in Kashmir when he declared this in 48 and again in 65? IF his advice was heeded, maybe things would be different.

I never stated that no one in the ISI ranks or military establishment supported JI, but I guess you are just hung up on ISI and PA. I have oft mentioned that these groups were used for political gains and geo political issues. As for Maududi's advice, things are better because we did not listen to him in the first place. If we had listened to him, we would not have a Pakistan today.

CIA giving funds to JI did not happen without the knowledge of the ISI and other agencies. This was part of the promotion of Islamists to counter leftists and communists and the Pakistani military establishment encouraged this. Is it not true that whenever Islamists groups came to power in elections it was mostly under military dictators where elections are renowned for their rigging?

First of all Ayub Khan (Military Dictator) banned JI and kept these groups under control, many of my family members worked in the government and in the late 70's, such parties received so much external support that they were able to utilize and become an influential group.

The point is that blaming JI is only half or less than half of the problem. As survey after survey have shown, these parties don't have any major public support in Pakistan. Still they are getting support from somewhere. These groups were used for geo-politics and now that they got a life of their own, you can't just blame them, but you have to blame those who allowed them to become what they are.

Zia allowed them to become what they are today and we blame him for it. I cannot follow what you are getting to, we purged many of their supporters in the 90's all the way up to Musharraf. These groups and their actions are known to us. We know how to deal with them.

And the only reason why I mentioned JIHind was because I thought you didnt know that JI -organisation that maududi founded- also exists in India.

Maududi founded Jamaat-e-Islami Hind, I am aware of that. But why are you bringing Jihad here.

 

[Cheetah786]

Well Worth it!Pakistan lives in the heart of millions of Pakistanis.

Picture is worth a1000s words and i Thank you from the bottom of my heart for making a statement millions of words could not have made.

 

[SpArK]

SC/STs are the least literate in India at 52%, muslims are around 59.1%. Besides it is quite variable from state to state. In atleast 10 states muslims have higher literacy rates than the state average mainly in the south.

2) Many people upto minister level and police officers have been arrested and some of them convicted. Recently Modi himself was called in for questioning. There is no doubt that it was blot in which 2000 people mainly muslim but also hindus were killed but many more displaced from their homes Similar is the case for Orissa.

3) Very unfortunate that the investigation is still stuck and no leads have come forth

But all this is still besides the point as I keep mentioning. The thread article might have had good intentions but had a wrong attitude to begin with.

Exactly.. like in my state where there are more than 10 million Muslims are there and have more than 90% literacy rate.

 

[Icarus]

I am sure Munshi ji is wondering where his thread has headed.

And about JI and Maududi, I am no fan of Maududi but I'm surprised by your comment. Don't you know that it is the military establishment in particular the ISI that has made JI what it is today by supporting its most extreme elements and basically corrupting it.

That was Zia's policy, Zia was not the ISI/PA and neither are ISI/PA Zia.

Lets not forget that the biggest damage was done post 1980s when JI was given a free run on student campuses by Zia a PA general. Will you next ask for Indian Muslims to take your ISI and PA too? Many in Pakistan do say that PA has never helped Pakistan in coming on its feet either.

Doesn't matter what others think, PA is Pakistan's most powerful, stable and respected institution, they have done tonnes of good for Pakistan.

And by the way India has its own version of Jamaat Islami, its called Jamaat Islami Hind. But it is not corrupted and fanatic like its Pakistani counterpart. It focusses more on welfare issues than politics

.

We know about Jamaat-e-Islami Hind.

The thread was about why Pakistan is worth fighting for--what I'm saying is if all you have is to use crutch of the "sorry state" of Indian muslims as justification, sorry to be harsh but its pathetic.

Just for the record, the article was written by a B'deshi, posted by a B'deshi, so we aren't the only one's who seem to think of the Indian muslims to be in a sorry state, however, I personally take no responsibility for them, they are Indians and the Indian govt is responsible for how they are treated, I'm no one to complain, they had the option, they chose to stay there and any consequences that brings about whether good or bad are on their heads.

Because there is no other option than to fight for Pakistan. If Jinnah's vision is too confusing as it seems today in Pakistan, a new vision might be necessary. Afterall, there is no other option other than to fight for it.
The question would be better framed as WHO is this fight against? Is it TTP, the corrupt politicians, the overbearing military, the elusive agencies, the ever present RAW-CIA-MOSSAD nexus...or just lack of self-confidence?
Once the right "enemy" is found the fight will be easy. Famous words of Sun Tzu should accompany this.

Our fight at the moment is to escape the clutches of the TTP and end the proxy war that is being waged by Iran, Arab countries, India, Israel and Russia in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

 

[Raghu]

Sorry guys,but this article written with clear vested interest ,the author try to portray somehow, Indian Muslim whose population are roughly near the population of both Pakistan and Bangladesh,are supposedly bunch of very unfortunate people for having to live in a Hindu majority India and suffering innumerable miseries without any rights or support from the state, unlike those Muslims who are now citizens of newly created Pakistan or Bangladesh following Jinnah's vision and enjoying the great dividends on that account, which is absolutely wrong for and mean thing to say ,particularly to Indian Muslim .

As far i know ,Indian Muslims aren't seeking anyone assistance least to say,any BDeshi.