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Was Jinnah's Pakistan worth the fight?

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and Psychedelic renegade, if you are tired of our attitude, well you are gonna die a tired man. We don't give a squat to your tiredness. You have been raised in a belief system which itself is based on caste system. So, you won't understand.

Well a single malt with friends and that tiredness will go for sure. Talk about caste system deserves another thread and may be that would lead us to how Ahmadi's being treated in Pakistan, so let's not indulge into here. As far as me is concerned, I believe in my conscience more than any religious system, something which is alien to you.

And we are only fighting for those who don't want indian occupational forces killing and raping them. For the rest of the Muslims in india, who want to live there, we got no problem with that, they can live happily ever after where ever they wish.

Why would you have any problems muslims living in India? I mean how the question of having problem arises? The thread is not about Kashmir, so some other time, some other thread.

Peace to those who wish peace and hell to the enemies of Islam and Pakistan.

Ok. And what about enemies of Islam and India?
 
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Look at hypocrisy of Muslims while they get so happy when they convert to Islam but at the same time if someone want's to leave Islam they want to kill him. They want different rule for them and others.

Two versions.

Taliban Islam
Real Islam

both follow the same teachings but interpretations are different.

There is a reason Taliban Islam is called extremist Islam.

The bold part.. If you are so concerned then why dont you take time out and study what Real Islam says about Apostasy.
 
Well a single malt with friends and that tiredness will go for sure. Talk about caste system deserves another thread and may be that would lead us to how Ahmadi's being treated in Pakistan, so let's not indulge into here. As for me is concerned, I believe in my conscience more than any religious system, something which is alien to you.

This is how Ahmadies are treated

The statistic shows that strength of Ahmadis, generally known as Qadianis, in BS 19 to 22 is 0.9pc; in BS 17 and 18 is 0.9pc; in BS 16 is 0.8pc; in BS 11 to 15 is 0.3pc; in BS 3 to 10 is 0.1pc and in BS 1 to 2 is 0.1pc.

The statistics about Qadiani employees shows that they mostly hold senior positions in the federal civilian bureaucracy. The percentage of Qadiani officials shrinks as one observes their number against lower tiers. However, it is expected that most of the 0.5pc of the federal civil servants, who did not disclose their religion, are also Qadianis.

They hold the most prestigious roles in Pakistan and have done so since its creation. Religious discrimination is another matter entirely and only occurs because of extremists that are being handled by us right now. I did not know your lower castes were predominant in high positions of military and civil structures.

Why would you have any problems muslims living in India? I mean how the question of having problem arises? The thread is not about Kashmir, so some other time, some other thread.

We do not have a problem but the problem surfaces when these same people run to Pakistan for help or migrate towards Pakistan. They look at us for help when they have problems in their own country and it should be none of our business but some of our religiously deranged make it our problem too.

Pakistan was worth all the effort and Jinnah made it possible for us to progress or digress through our own choices.

Read this:

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Why do Indian Muslims lag behind?
 
This is how Ahmadies are treated



They hold the most prestigious roles in Pakistan and have done so since its creation. Religious discrimination is another matter entirely and only occurs because of extremists that are being handled by us right now. I did not know your lower castes were predominant in high positions of military and civil structures.



We do not have a problem but the problem surfaces when these same people run to Pakistan for help or migrate towards Pakistan. They look at us for help when they have problems in their and it should be none of our business but some of our religiously deranged make it our problem too.

Pakistan was worth all the effort and Jinnah made it possible for us to progress or digress through our own choices.

Read this:

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Why do Indian Muslims lag behind?

Touché, my good man.............
 
Well a single malt with friends and that tiredness will go for sure. Talk about caste system deserves another thread and may be that would lead us to how Ahmadi's being treated in Pakistan, so let's not indulge into here. As far as me is concerned, I believe in my conscience more than any religious system, something which is alien to you.

Well Ahmedis are treated just fine, they are the largest minority in the Pak Army and occupy important govt post, have important positions in the bureaucracy. Except becoming president and PM, they can choose to become anything in Pakistan. So I'd say they have it pretty good here.
 
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What I do want my Indian friends to do is this. Please take back your Maulana Maududi (his remains) and his Jamaat-e-Islami. They hated and cursed Pakistan, you were kind enough to keep Maulana Madani, please take these immigrants back too.

They hated Jinnah, the religious extremists in our country have never helped Pakistan. Show me one picture where these guys are holding the Pak flag with honor or a video where they are defending Pakistan.

I will pay you to take these people back.
 
What I do want my Indian friends to do is this. Please take back your Maulana Maududi (his remains) and his Jamaat-e-Islami. They hated and cursed Pakistan, you were kind enough to keep Maulana Madani, please take these immigrants back too.

They hated Jinnah, the religious extremists in our country have never helped Pakistan. Show me one picture where these guys are holding the Pak flag with honor or a video where they are defending Pakistan.

I will pay you to take these people back.

Infact, they are helping the Taliban to destabilize the GoP . Bloody backstabbing traitors.
 
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

It seems like that the author is a insane or on heavy dose of drugs.

The richest Muslim billionaire in this planet earth is an Indian who have worked and earned with his hard work and Imaan. In the field of business there are countless Muslims who are having big companies and are on the verge of being billionaire. And so called Islamic states has not provided any true Billionaires.

There are Indian Muslims all over the sports Irfan Pathan, Yusuf Pathan, Munaf Patel, Zaheer Khan, Sania Mirza, Nasser Hussain. Even Indian cricket team was under the leadership of a Muslim Muhammad Azharuudin. Now, he's a member of parliament.

In the films, entertainment, television, music the list is countless. Shah Rukh Khan, Aamir Khan, Salman Khan, Saif Ali Khan, Imran Khan, Imran Hashmi, Tabu, Madhubala, Wahida Rehman, Dilip kumar, AR Rehman, Abbas Mastan, Sajid khan, Farah Khan, Sazid Nadiawala, Fardeen Khan, Hussain, Muhhamad Rafi, Mahmood, Mahboob, Nasir Hussain the list goes on and on.

Muslims has reached the highest position in India and even become President of India.

You pick any area and the list goes on and on.

They are not facing 20 hours of power cuts, they are living in one of the top economies of the world, they are having one of the the biggest military power in the world, they live in a country which gives them fair chance to prove themselves and reach the top.

And within 10-15 years Indian Muslims will be having world's 3d largest military power, top economic power within top 5. More and more Muslims will become billionaire, cricket stars, film star or do what ever they want in life and enjoy the freedom in a free country. :yahoo::yahoo:

They are happy and secure and progressing at present.

ANd they will be happy and secure and progressing in future too.
 
The statistics about Qadiani employees shows that they mostly hold senior positions in the federal civilian bureaucracy. The percentage of Qadiani officials shrinks as one observes their number against lower tiers. However, it is expected that most of the 0.5pc of the federal civil servants, who did not disclose their religion, are also Qadianis.

And we have dalit president, chief minister of most populous state, our constitution was written by a dalit. We have 50%(correct me if I'm wrong at statistics) of jobs, seats in educational institutes reserved for dalits and other backward classes. You got the drift? Now saying all these I do admit there are atrocities happening aganist them may be right at this moment, but we have laws, media and constitution to protect them, even still some cases dont appear to media, some people dont have access to court, still we are trying and we are gradually getting better. I don't see Indians debating on forums whether or not a dalit should be called hindu or does our constitution give them the right to call themselves as hindu after any such atrocities.

We do not have a problem but the problem surfaces when these same people run to Pakistan for help or migrate towards Pakistan. They look at us for help when they have problems in their and it should be none of our business but some of our religiously deranged make it our problem too.

Sorry is there any recent migration to Pakistan after partition or am I missing something? Surely you're not talking of Dawood Ibrahim types! Rather there is a migration from Bangladesh to India because of BD's unsustainable population density. Minorities in India have increased, both in number and percentage, since partition, quite contrary to their peers in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

The BBC report just takes tit-bits of Sachhar committee report, as we are talking here now, works have been made to make the Indian Muslim community for mainstream. I think Ejaz can clarify further, only if anyone wishes to listen.
 
Maulana Maududi’s Role Against Jinnah’s Pakistan

Let me start by saying - as a disclaimer- that opposing Jinnah, the Muslim League or Pakistan is not an unpardonable crime. Support for Pakistan’s creation is not sine qua non for its citizenship. However an exception must be made in the case of Jamaat-e-Islami given its latter day claims about being the guardians of Pakistan’s ideology. Maulana Maududi claimed and his “Jamaat-e-Islami” still claims to be the guardian of Pakistan’s ideological frontiers as it were. They have been at the forefront of religious bigotry against all minority groups of Pakistan. They abuse those who stand for a peaceful settlement of Kashmir dispute and they hurl abuses at groups like Agha Khanis and Ahmadis- the two of the most actively pro-Pakistan groups during partition- and accuse them of being the enemies of Pakistan.

What a turn around. Maududi was the most vociferous opponent of Mr. Jinnah and the Pakistan Movement. I reproduce here some of his referenced works here from his “Muslims and the Present Political Turmoil” (Vol.III) First Edition published from Delhi. Jamaat-e-Islami claims that the whole Two Nation Theory project was derived from Maududi’s writings which is completely untrue. Maududi described the idea of Muslim Nationalism as unlikely as a ”chaste prostitute”. Here he wrote:

” Who are the Muslims you are claiming to be a separate nation? Here, the crowd called Muslims is full of all sorts of rabble. There are as many types of characters in this as in any (other) heathen people”. (Vol. III, P.166)

“If you survey this so-called Muslim society, you will come across multifarious types of Muslims, of countless categories. This is a zoo with a collection of crows, kites, vultures, partridges and thousands of other types of birds. Every one of them is a ‘sparrow’. (Ibid. P.31)

One of Jamaat-e-Islami’s latter day claims has been that Mr. Jinnah wanted an Islamic state. Ironically this is what Jamaat-e-Islami’s philosopher in chief Maulana Maududi was writing back then:

“Pity! From League’s Quaid-e-Azam down to the lower cadres, there is not a single person who has an Islamic outlook and thinking and whose perspective on matters is Islamic“. (Ibid. P.37)

“To pronounce these people fit for leading Muslims for the simple reason that they are experts of Western type politics and masters of Western organizational arts, and are deeply in love with their people, is a manifestation of an unislamic viewpoint and reflects ignorance of Islam”. (Ibid. P.70)

“Even with a microscopic study of their practical life, and their thinking, ideology, political behaviour and style of leadership, one can find not a trace of Islamic character.”

Jamaat-e-Islami now claims claims that the Muslim League won the elections because it promised Pakistan as an Islamic state. Here is what Maulana Maududi said then:

“In no Muslim League resolution, or in a speech by a responsible leader of the League it has it been made clear that their final goal is of establishing an Islamic system of government. Those who believe that by freeing Muslim majority areas rule of Hindu majority, an Islamic government will be established here in a democratic set up, are wrong. In fact what will be achieved will be a heretical government by Muslims, indeed worse than that.” (Ibid. P.130-32)

One of the main arguments in favor of separate federations in India put up by Muslim League was that parliamentary democracy would not work in United India given the permanent minority that Muslims were with their own majority zones. Thus Pakistan – as a separate federation- had to be a democratic state. Jinnah’s vision, as Gandhi concluded after his abortive meetings with Jinnah in 1944, was of a perfect democracy in Pakistan. This vision was rejected by Maulana Maududi and his party. The fact that Jinnah used electoral methods and strengths of numbers for his politics also upset Maulana Maududi quite a bit. He wrote:

“For these reasons, the great numbers (of Muslims) that we find. (listed) in the census records has become worthless for purposes of Islam. Anything done on the strength of these numbers will result in acute frustration.” (Ibid. P.56)

Had these great numbers supported Maududi he would have gladly accepted their strength. In 1947, he moved to Pakistan and brought here with him his cancerous Jamaat-e-Islami too. He remained however a committed opponent of the Pakistani national causes including the Kashmir struggle calling it unIslamic. Today the Jamaat-e-Islami castigates anyone and everyone who wants a peaceful settlement in Kashmir. I suppose Maududi could not call the Kashmir struggle a Jihad because then Ahmadis were involved in fighting there under their Al-Furqan brigade.

A few years later Maududi in cahoots with the old anti-Muslim League and anti-Pakistan group Majlis-e-Ahrar started the anti-Ahmaddiya movement in Pakistan with the main objective of getting Zafrulla dismissed from his post as the foreign minister. This is the same Zafrulla who was the author of the Lahore Resolution and had been appointed by the Quaid to plead Pakistan’s case before the boundary commission and the United Nations. The movement led to a death sentence being handed down to Maulana Maududi which was not carried out.

At the Munir Report hearings the Jamaat e Islami described Jinnah’s vision of the state as expressed on 11 August 1947 as kufr and evil. Today Jamaat e Islami claims that 11th August speech was actually according to Islamic Law. Ofcourse they would never agree to its implementation in letter and spirit but perhaps we could consider this an improvement. Some Jamaat-e-Islami wallahs point to Maududi’s half hearted support to Fatima Jinnah’s bid for presidency as proof of his patriotism and love for democracy. The truth is that Jamaat-e-Islami had nothing against dictatorship and indeed military coup seems to be Jamaat’s preferred method of change of government. What alienated Maududi from Ayub was the latter’s insistence on taking lead in Islam-related matters from Allama Parwez and the modernist Harvard scholar Fazlurrahman instead of him.

The Jamaat-e-Islami expected to sweep into power in 1970 through elections (wait isn’t this a contradiction?). Maududi’s son even visited Ahmaddiya headquarters and told them to vote for Jamaat-e-Islami for “safe passage out of Pakistan”. However the election results didn’t quite turn out the way Maududi wanted it to. So he went about it another way forming Al Badr a militant organization which is distinguished in its role in East Pakistan. Those who accuse Bhutto of being power hungry by collaborating with army should also consider the fact that had Bhutto not played footsie with the dictator, it would have been an abject surrender of both East and West Pakistan, in the East to India and in the West to Maududi.

Given this history and Jamaat-e-Islami’s role in aid of General Zia, all their claims of democracy seem hollow. Had it not been for Aitzaz Ahsan’s sagacious leadership, they would have hijacked the Lawyers’ Movement. We must be on the look out for any meetings between Jamaat-e-Islami’s current chief and the Pakistan Army and the patriots of Pakistan must remember that Jamaat-e-Islami will always persecute those who actually stand for Pakistan. A few years ago they even started a campaign to have Aga Khanis declared Non-muslims. Ofcourse the fact that Aga Khan was the first president of the Muslim League and Jinnah himself was an Agha Khani by birth is too inconvenient for them.

It is therefore in this context that the slander, abuse and lies posted by a third rate newspaper “Daily Ummat” against PakTeaHouse and myself must be read. It is because we speak up for Pakistan, it is because we expose the Fitna-e-Maududiat, it is because we speak for Jinnah’s Pakistan and because we speak for the minorities of Pakistan and because we feel Pakistan deserves a shot. The Fitna-e-Maududiat will never attack those who abuse Pakistan day in day out because that group doesn’t challenge their lies or their claim to speak for Pakistan. We do.

Pakistan Zindabad.
 
I am sure Munshi ji is wondering where his thread has headed.

I still don't understand why Pakistanis have to use the crutch of the conditions of Indian Muslims to justify Pakistan as I mentioned in my earlier post. Its not like if Indian Muslims start having a better quality of life than Pakistanis and Bangladeshi, reunification will occur. Pakistan and Bangladesh will remain outside India's sovereign unit no matter how much they might want to join it. So the question about reunification does not even arise.

@T-Faz
And about JI and Maududi, I am no fan of Maududi but I'm surprised by your comment. Don't you know that it is the military establishment in particular the ISI that has made JI what it is today by supporting its most extreme elements and basically corrupting it. Lets not forget that the biggest damage was done post 1980s when JI was given a free run on student campuses by Zia a PA general. Will you next ask for Indian Muslims to take your ISI and PA too? Many in Pakistan do say that PA has never helped Pakistan in coming on its feet either.

And by the way India has its own version of Jamaat Islami, its called Jamaat Islami Hind. But it is not corrupted and fanatic like its Pakistani counterpart. It focusses more on welfare issues than politics.

I say it with a heavy heart but be it the Deobandi or Jamaat Islami or Ahle Hadees e.t.c., the Pakistani counterparts are way different in terms of general tolerance and attitude among Muslims themselves let alone non-Muslims. The are quite different from their Indian counterparts.

---------

The thread was about why Pakistan is worth fighting for--what I'm saying is if all you have is to use crutch of the "sorry state" of Indian muslims as justification, sorry to be harsh but its pathetic.

Because there is no other option than to fight for Pakistan. If Jinnah's vision is too confusing as it seems today in Pakistan, a new vision might be necessary. Afterall, there is no other option other than to fight for it.
The question would be better framed as WHO is this fight against? Is it TTP, the corrupt politicians, the overbearing military, the elusive agencies, the ever present RAW-CIA-MOSSAD nexus...or just lack of self-confidence?
Once the right "enemy" is found the fight will be easy. Famous words of Sun Tzu should accompany this.
 
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T-Faz, nobody questioning Pakistan's existence or Jinnahs intentions, merely trying to point out, stop using Indian Muslims, that too based on literature written by diffusional hate-mongers to justify your country, your problems.

Regards!
 
And we have dalit president, chief minister of most populous state, our constitution was written by a dalit. We have 50%(correct me if I'm wrong at statistics) of jobs, seats in educational institutes reserved for dalits and other backward classes. You got the drift? Now saying all these I do admit there are atrocities happening aganist them may be right at this moment, but we have laws, media and constitution to protect them, even still some cases dont appear to media, some people dont have access to court, still we are trying and we are gradually getting better. I don't see Indians debating on forums whether or not a dalit should be called hindu or does our constitution give them the right to call themselves as hindu after any such atrocities.

You cannot compare Ahmadies to Dalits, that would not only be the most inappropriate comparison but also stupid to divulge in from an intellectual point of view. I really do not understand your argument and I think this issue is far too different to be discussed here.

Sorry is there any recent migration to Pakistan after partition or am I missing something? Surely you're not talking of Dawood Ibrahim types! Rather there is a migration from Bangladesh to India because of BD's unsustainable population density. Minorities in India have increased, both in number and percentage, since partition, quite contrary of their peers in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

You are highly uninformed and do not know what your are taking about. The percentage of population might have decreases in Pakistan but the actual amount has grown. Here read this and learn:

We use the first census carried out in 1950/1 to determine the decrease or increase of minorities in WEST PAKISTAN alone, Indian media uses 1947 indicators to distort the truth to show a Pakistan where minorities are decreasing which is incorrect. Lets leave Bangladesh out and concentrate on the statistics of west Pakistan. I will use hindus as an example who have increased over time.

Now lets answer your question, 1947 stats cannot be used becuase of mass migration of hindus towars india. Lets use 1950 for a better comparison shall we as it was when the migration and internal deisplacemt was over. There were 39,448,232 people in Pakistan and a total of 6.54 milllion hindus, of which 5.4 million left for India.

http://www.hks.harvard.edu/fs/akhwaja/papers/The%20Big%20March%20December%202005.pdf

Now Pakistan was left with 1.1 million from whom half were unfortunately killed from Muslims who heard of killing in India of other Muslims.

So by that account 500,000 hindus were left and today they are higher than 4 million, percentage does not matter becuase muslim population boomed and there were alot of immigrants who entered Pakistan.

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Islamic Revelution Against Terrorism: Did Hindu Population Decrease to 3% in Pakistan?

As for immigration to Pakistan, we catch different kinds of people trying to enter Pakistan to this day, just recently a couple of burmese and nepalese were entering Pakistan through India. Similarly our Mohajir have family members who do visit Pakistan, in my neighborhood alone we had a few Indian Muslim families who moved from India in the 90's. They were from Bombay and decided to move after the incidents that occurred.

The BBC report just takes tit-bits of what Sachhar committee, as we are talking here now, works have been made to make the Indian Muslim community for mainstream. I think Ejaz can clarify further, only if anyone wishes to listen.

Well 3 years does not make a big difference and I can also provide you with a recent news article that outlines the same. Lets just leave it at that.
 
^^^
On the day of judgment, will Allah ask us did you sacrifice a cow on eid? Isn't sacrificing sheep and goats equally valid? And if you are poor, you are not even required to do so. This is hardly the standard to look at.

There are many other important issues than just that. Besides, this is only in N. India, in the south and east not just Muslims but Tribals, Dalits and Christians eat beef as well.

In comparison for example in Turkey, at least until very recently Muslim women couldn't enter universities wearing head scarves which is much more important than sacrificing cows

Surely Allah will not ask about goats, cows or sheep.but there are other factors which should also be considered. In Pakistan there has never been Muslim-Non Muslim violence unlike India where huge anti Muslim riots are norms.

Indian Secularism supports inter-religion marriages which to be really very honest is not acceptable in Islam you accept or not.Indian media portrays Muslims as traitors or evil elements of society.
 
@T-Faz
And about JI and Maududi, I am no fan of Maududi but I'm surprised by your comment. Don't you know that it is the military establishment in particular the ISI that has made JI what it is today by supporting its most extreme elements and basically corrupting it. Lets not forget that the biggest damage was done post 1980s when JI was given a free run on student campuses by Zia a PA general. Will you next ask for Indian Muslims to take your ISI and PA too? Many in Pakistan do say that PA has never helped Pakistan in coming on its feet either.

It was not the ISI that made JI what it is today, get your facts right. US started providing support to JI so that they can counter Bhutto who wanted to free Pakistan from US partnership entirely.

Mian Tufail Ahmed of Jamaat-e-Islami accepted funds from CIA to participate in CIA’s operation wheel jam in 1977

You people are quick to blame ISI for everything, why would ISI support such a group when they only work for the interest of Pakistan. ISI used to intercept the calls between Maududi and CIA. Here is an excerpt from the book.

"There was apart from holding meetings [with US diplomats and intelligence agents], a wireless link had been established between the USIS-US Consulate General-Maulana Maududi Residence"

Source : "Profiles of Intelligence" - Page 35 by Brig S.A.I. Tirmazi former DG JCIB- Inter Services Intelligence

Zia was a curse for Pakistan, he met his fate. His twisted Islamization (his version) hurt us a lot. The reason I mention you take these people back is that every time something happens to Muslims in India. These idiots start attacking our peaceful Hindu community, the PA took harsh against these elements in the early 90's and it is doing the same now.

And by the way India has its own version of Jamaat Islami, its called Jamaat Islami Hind. But it is not corrupted and fanatic like its Pakistani counterpart. It focusses more on welfare issues than politics.

You are odd, firstly you mention that do not compare and that is what you are doing too. The thing with your religious parties is that they know their limitations but if they had the opportunity, they will show what they can do.

I say it with a heavy heart but be it the Deobandi or Jamaat Islami or Ahle Hadees e.t.c., the Pakistani counterparts are way different in terms of general tolerance and attitude among Muslims themselves let alone non-Muslims. The are quite different from their Indian counterparts.

They are different, they are the problem that persists in our society and they work for their gain through the use of religion.
 
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