Was Jinnah secular or not?

[MayaBazar]

Does it really matter now?

Yes. It does matter.

Both right wing Muslims and Right Wing Hindus want Jinnah to be painted as a Muslim fundamentalist.

From right wing Pakistan's POV this helps in projecting Pakistan as the leader of Ummah and only Muslim nation with a Nuclear bomb. It helps them to continue their continued hatred towards non Muslims of the subcontinent, be it Ahmedias, Hindus, Sikhs etc.

From right wing Hindu POV, this helps build the narrative that Muslims are fundamentalists who are not patriotic towards the nation but towards Islam only.

A decade ago few politicians from Indian right wing party tried to educate the people that Jinnah was secular and they became untouchables in their own parties.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

right wing Muslims and Right Wing Hindus want Jinnah to be painted as a Muslim fundamentalist.

Partly true. Secular Indians also need jinnah to be a fundamentalist to suit their designs against Pakistan.

 

[MayaBazar]

And yet India declares jinnah as some Islamist maniac who dismembered a secular nation to please Islamist designs... Nope. Hindustan is Hindustan, a unique phenomenon, secular when advertising itself but religiously against jinnah and his madrassa state whenever discussing Pakistan over a dinner table. I've been party to these discussions so I'm aware of the dichotomy of personalities India suffers with.

Read my post above.

Partly true. Secular Indians also need jinnah to be a fundamentalist to suit their designs against Pakistan.

That is because Congress has to consider the feelings of Muslim vote bank of India who are very Anti-Jinnah.

Congress supporting Jinnah will mean losing Indian Muslim support forever.

 

[shah_123]

Leaving this here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1073824168548937728

@MayaBazar and all Indians, please cease your disinformation campaign against Quaid e Azam. His loyalty was only to the Muslims, who were devoted to him.



Exactly, what kind of a "secular state" brings a European Muslim convert and scholar of Polish Jewish origin to head its foreign office?

Thanks for bringing Muhammad Asad in the equation -- so called "secular" Jinnah made him the head of the department of Islamic reconstruction (we all know what the worthless coins, as said by Jinnah, did with him after Jinnah passed away) --- We have speeches of Muhammad Ali Jinnah, we have his practical approach (whatever he could in little time after partition) and still we have a section which is hell bent on proving that he wanted a secular Pakistan -- I can only say, they are shameless people.

I quote Muhammad Asad for my friend @Rusty
from Aims and Objectives of the Department of Islamic Reconstruction:

"As everyone knows, our struggle for the attainment of Pakistan has been fought on an ideological platform.

We have maintained, and do maintain to-day, that we Muslims are a nation by virtue of our adherence to Islam. To us, religion is not merely set of beliefs and moral values but a code of practical behavior as well"

 

[T-123456]

Yes. It does matter.

Both right wing Muslims and Right Wing Hindus want Jinnah to be painted as a Muslim fundamentalist.

From right wing Pakistan's POV this helps in projecting Pakistan as the leader of Ummah and only Muslim nation with a Nuclear bomb. It helps them to continue their continued hatred towards non Muslims of the subcontinent, be it Ahmedias, Hindus, Sikhs etc.

From right wing Hindu POV, this helps build the narrative that Muslims are fundamentalists who are not patriotic towards the nation but towards Islam only.

A decade ago few politicians from Indian right wing party tried to educate the people that Jinnah was secular and they became untouchables in their own parties.

Ok,let me answer you by quoting a small part of a book.




''But while Dina was at Mrs Browne’s, she did spend her holidays with her father, who if he did not give her time, did give her the freedom to tease him. Dina took to calling him “Grey Wolf” because of a book he was much taken with around this time – Grey Wolf: An Intimate Study of a Dictator on the life of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. The story of Ataturk, born around the same time as Jinnah and rising from similar circumstances to create an independent Turkey, resonated so deeply with Jinnah that he could talk of nothing else but Ataturk for days and he even thrust the book on Dina, who at thirteen knew her own mind. She began chafing him about his passion for Kemal and nicknamed him “Grey Wolf”, and then “cajole[d] him into putting a brief aside, with the plea, ‘Come on, Grey Wolf, take me to a pantomime; after all, I am on my holidays.’” ''

https://scroll.in/article/856489/da...wadia-to-have-mohammed-ali-jinnah-as-a-father

 

[shah_123]

It did not really matter, as well as being well after the fact.

She had not lived with him for years before she finally got married.

Please at least read about the life of your founder.
.

Why me, when it's you, who couldn't understand my post?

It was about Jinnah's wife, for whom I said she converted to Islam and not the daughter.

 

[MayaBazar]

Ok,let me answer you by quoting a small part of a book.




''But while Dina was at Mrs Browne’s, she did spend her holidays with her father, who if he did not give her time, did give her the freedom to tease him. Dina took to calling him “Grey Wolf” because of a book he was much taken with around this time – Grey Wolf: An Intimate Study of a Dictator on the life of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. The story of Ataturk, born around the same time as Jinnah and rising from similar circumstances to create an independent Turkey, resonated so deeply with Jinnah that he could talk of nothing else but Ataturk for days and he even thrust the book on Dina, who at thirteen knew her own mind. She began chafing him about his passion for Kemal and nicknamed him “Grey Wolf”, and then “cajole[d] him into putting a brief aside, with the plea, ‘Come on, Grey Wolf, take me to a pantomime; after all, I am on my holidays.’” ''

https://scroll.in/article/856489/da...wadia-to-have-mohammed-ali-jinnah-as-a-father

The issue was Jinnah was 100% secular but he was always worried about his secular actions impacting his political life.

Wadia's relationship with her father became strained when she expressed her desire to marry the Parsi-born Indian Neville Wadia. Jinnah, a Muslim, tried to dissuade her, but failed. M. C. Chagla, who was Jinnah's assistant at the time, recalls: "Jinnah, in his usual imperious manner, told her that there were millions of Muslim boys in India, and she could have chosen anyone. Reminding her father that his wife (Dina's mother Rattanbai), had also been a non-Muslim, a Parsi also coincidently, the young lady replied: 'Father, there were millions of Muslim girls in India. Why did you not marry one of them?' And he replied that, 'She became a Muslim'."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dina_Wadia#Marriage,_rift_and_reconciliation_with_father

 

[El Sidd]

The issue was Jinnah was 100% secular but he was always worried about his secular actions impacting his political life.

Wadia's relationship with her father became strained when she expressed her desire to marry the Parsi-born Indian Neville Wadia. Jinnah, a Muslim, tried to dissuade her, but failed. M. C. Chagla, who was Jinnah's assistant at the time, recalls: "Jinnah, in his usual imperious manner, told her that there were millions of Muslim boys in India, and she could have chosen anyone. Reminding her father that his wife (Dina's mother Rattanbai), had also been a non-Muslim, a Parsi also coincidently, the young lady replied: 'Father, there were millions of Muslim girls in India. Why did you not marry one of them?' And he replied that, 'She became a Muslim'."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dina_Wadia#Marriage,_rift_and_reconciliation_with_father

But he did let her be in the end?

He was a lawyer not politician and this makes him liberal as any Muslim but not secular.

Notice the argument. She became a Muslim.

You guys and your sand built castles have no treasure in them either

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Congress has to consider the feelings of Muslim vote bank of India who are very Anti-Jinnah.

Interesting perspective. However this simply adds to my assertions made elsewhere that India has deliberately nurtured one or perhaps two very specific kinds of one-dimensional musulman that suit underlying hindutva motives. The only alternative to the jinnah-bashing pseudo-fundamentalist is the jinnah-bashing over-compensating self-flagellating atheist type (Javed Akhtar). Perhaps there is some wiggle room but it's these two broad categories. It truly does not compute with hard-core Indian nationalists - be they hindutva or secular - that Jinnah was not some raving Islamist and indeed, the nation he birthed is remarkably diverse, with every nuanced shade of thought between relatively rare extremes.

 

[T-123456]

The issue was Jinnah was 100% secular but he was always worried about his secular actions impacting his political life.

Wadia's relationship with her father became strained when she expressed her desire to marry the Parsi-born Indian Neville Wadia. Jinnah, a Muslim, tried to dissuade her, but failed. M. C. Chagla, who was Jinnah's assistant at the time, recalls: "Jinnah, in his usual imperious manner, told her that there were millions of Muslim boys in India, and she could have chosen anyone. Reminding her father that his wife (Dina's mother Rattanbai), had also been a non-Muslim, a Parsi also coincidently, the young lady replied: 'Father, there were millions of Muslim girls in India. Why did you not marry one of them?' And he replied that, 'She became a Muslim'."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dina_Wadia#Marriage,_rift_and_reconciliation_with_father

He had to make compromises.
He didnt have the absolute power Atatürk had.

 

[Yankee-stani]

He had to make compromises.

Other issue he was too old and dying how can you leave a legacy for a young nation free from imperialist yoke when death was knocking on his door and rest of compatriots were mediocre at best sigh

Ok,let me answer you by quoting a small part of a book.




''But while Dina was at Mrs Browne’s, she did spend her holidays with her father, who if he did not give her time, did give her the freedom to tease him. Dina took to calling him “Grey Wolf” because of a book he was much taken with around this time – Grey Wolf: An Intimate Study of a Dictator on the life of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. The story of Ataturk, born around the same time as Jinnah and rising from similar circumstances to create an independent Turkey, resonated so deeply with Jinnah that he could talk of nothing else but Ataturk for days and he even thrust the book on Dina, who at thirteen knew her own mind. She began chafing him about his passion for Kemal and nicknamed him “Grey Wolf”, and then “cajole[d] him into putting a brief aside, with the plea, ‘Come on, Grey Wolf, take me to a pantomime; after all, I am on my holidays.’” ''

https://scroll.in/article/856489/da...wadia-to-have-mohammed-ali-jinnah-as-a-father

If only Jinnah was young military officer like Ataturk or Political Commissar like Stalin with steel's of balls we could have been in a different place

 

[T-123456]

If only Jinnah was young military officer like Ataturk or Political Commissar like Stalin with steel's of balls we could have been in s different place

If only.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

We have maintained, and do maintain to-day, that we Muslims are a nation by virtue of our adherence to Islam. To us, religion is not merely set of beliefs and moral values but a code of practical behavior as well"

You don't realise just how well crafted this statement is. It single handedly undoes any remnant of the assertion that Jinnah was in any way a rigid Islamist.

We Muslims are a nation (not because we are an Islamic state or an Islamist state) but because we happen to be adherents of Islam, binding us together and giving us no chance of survival in a hindutva state.

Religion is not merely a set of beliefs and moral values but a code of practical behaviour as well (I.e. it is NOT a rigid unicameral set of commands but it should guide our behaviour in a practical sense, requiring nuance and interpretation to allow practical application of the aforementioned beliefs and values).

It's telling that he didn't simply say: we are an Islamic state and we abide strictly by shariah.

He said something different.

 

[Yankee-stani]

If only.

But it is what is we have to evolve in slow pace change is inevitable things cannot remain in the current status quo forever

 

[MayaBazar]

Interesting perspective. However this simply adds to my assertions made elsewhere that India has deliberately nurtured one or perhaps two very specific kinds of one-dimensional musulman that suit underlying hindutva motives. The only alternative to the jinnah-bashing pseudo-fundamentalist is the jinnah-bashing over-compensating self-flagellating atheist type (Javed Akhtar). Perhaps there is some wiggle room but it's these two broad categories. It truly does not compute with hard-core Indian nationalists - be they hindutva or secular - that Jinnah was not some raving Islamist and indeed, the nation he birthed is remarkably diverse, with every nuanced shade of thought between relatively rare extremes.

You have to understand that the Muslims of India like Jamaat-e-Islami were very anti-Jinnah and were totally opposed to the creation of Pakistan. They see Jinnah as the spoiler of their dream of making India one of the Khilafats. Leaders like Abul Kalam Azad were strongest supporters of Khilafat Movement.

So Hindu Congress leaders always needed to consider the sentiments of the Muslims of India while framing the party position and policies.