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US to deploy tanks in Afghan war

TTP meet and greet CIA officials openly. They get advance weapons and dollars from US to destabilize only Pakistan.
They do move in and out of Afghanistan but have never conflicted with US or Indian troops.
It was TTP which forced Pak army to give in to US demand of taking away army from southern borders and fielding it in north.
Otherwise, Pakistan army was not willing.
TTP clearly works for Indo-US interests.

Most likely you were ranting but i still correct you for the record.

Apparently, handful of elusive Taliban leaders may not have resources or means to buy basic life necessacities.... how can they organize IED's.....and you actually stated same in your last sentence.

Whereas, all American soldiers killed in Afghanistan was handy work of Indian trained militias belonged to northern alliance.

1) I was talking about the US tanks in Afgan and its effects, but you were writing something off the topic.
2)What I understand from your post is that there is a nexus of TTP-USA-India against Pakistan.
3)The US soliders are killed by Indian supported Northern Alliance(who are in power)

Any way I do not buy this arguments.

Rgds,
 
What is wrong with using Tanks in Afghanistan? Tanks have seen lot of action in Afghanistan. It is nothing new.

American Tanks are a lot better than the older Soviet Tanks that have seen wide-scale action in Afghanistan. Therefore, drawing parallels between them is stupid.

In addition, Pakistan army have also used Tanks during its operations against TTP.

So what is the fuss, if Americans have decided to use some of their own?

Here are some details:

U.S. deploying heavily armored battle tanks for first time in Afghan war

By Rajiv Chandrasekaran
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 19, 2010; 12:12 AM

The U.S. military is sending a contingent of heavily armored battle tanks to Afghanistan for the first time in the nine-year war, defense officials said, a shift that signals a further escalation in the aggressive tactics that have been employed by American forces this fall to attack the Taliban.

The deployment of a company of M1 Abrams tanks, which will be fielded by the Marines in the country's southwest, will allow ground forces to target insurgents from a greater distance - and with more of a lethal punch - than is possible from any other U.S. military vehicle. The 68-ton tanks are propelled by a jet engine and equipped with a 120mm main gun that can destroy a house more than a mile away.

Despite an overall counterinsurgency strategy that emphasizes the use of troops to protect Afghan civilians from insurgents, statistics released by the NATO military command in Kabul and interviews with several senior commanders indicate that U.S. troop operations over the past two months have been more intense and have had a harder edge than at any point since the initial 2001 drive to oust the Taliban government.

The pace of Special Operations missions to kill or capture Taliban leaders has more than tripled over the past three months. U.S. and NATO aircraft unleashed more bombs and missiles in October - 1,000 total - than in any single month since 2001. In the districts around the southern city of Kandahar, soldiers from the Army's 101st Airborne Division have demolished dozens of homes that were thought to be booby-trapped, and they have used scores of high-explosive line charges - a weapon that had been used only sparingly in the past - to blast through minefields.

Some of the tougher methods, particularly Special Operations night raids, have incensed Afghan President Hamid Karzai, who told The Washington Post last week that the missions were undermining support for the U.S.-led war effort. But senior U.S. military officials involved in running the war contend that the raids, as well as other aggressive measures, have dealt a staggering blow to the insurgency.

The officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss specific tactics, said the combination of the raids, the airstrikes and the use of explosives on the ground have been instrumental in improving security in areas around Kandahar, a Taliban stronghold that has been the focus of coalition operations this fall.

"We've taken the gloves off, and it has had huge impact," one of the senior officials said.

That, in turn, appears to have put U.S. Army Gen. David H. Petraeus, the top coalition commander, in a much stronger position heading into a Friday meeting of NATO heads of state in Lisbon, where Afghanistan will be a key topic of discussion. It also will help the general make his case that the military's strategy is working when President Obama and his advisers conduct a review of the war next month.

U.S. officer familiar with the decision said the tanks will be used initially in parts of northern Helmand province, where the Marines have been engaged in intense combat against resilient Taliban cells that typically are armed with assault rifles, rocket-propelled grenades and homemade bombs. The initial deployment calls for about 16 tanks, but the overall number and area of operations could expand depending on needs, the officer said.

"The tanks bring awe, shock and firepower," the officer said. "It's pretty significant."

Although the officer acknowledged that the use of tanks this many years into the war could be seen as a sign of desperation by some Afghans and Americans, he said they will provide the Marines with an important new tool in missions to flush out pockets of insurgent fighters. A tank round is far more accurate than firing artillery, and it can be launched much faster than having to wait for a fighter jet or a helicopter to shoot a missile or drop a satellite-guided bomb.

"Tanks give you immediate, protected firepower and mobility to address a threat that's beyond the range" of machine guns that are mounted on the mine-resistant trucks that most U.S. troops use in Afghanistan, said David Johnson, a senior researcher at the Rand Corp. who co-wrote a recent paper on the use of tanks in counterinsurgency operations.

The Marines had wanted to take tanks into Afghanistan when they began deploying in large numbers in spring 2009, but the top coalition commander then, Army Gen. David D. McKiernan, rejected the request, in part because of concern it could remind Afghans of the tank-heavy Soviet occupation in the 1980s. As it became clear that other units were getting the green light to engage in more heavy-handed measures, the Marines asked again, noting that Canadian and Danish troops had used a small number of tanks in southern Afghanistan. This time, the decision rested with Petraeus, who has been in charge of coalition forces in Afghanistan since July. He approved it last month, the officials said.

Use of intense force

Although Petraeus is widely regarded as the father of the military's modern counterinsurgency doctrine, which emphasizes the role of governance, development and other forms of soft power in stabilization missions, he also believes in the use of intense force, at times, to wipe out opponents and create conditions for population-centric operations. A less-recognized aspect of the troop surge he commanded in Iraq in 2007 involved a significant increase in raids and airstrikes.

"Petraeus believes counterinsurgency does not mean just handing out sacks of wheat seed," said a senior officer in Afghanistan. Counterinsurgency"doesn't mean you don't blow up stuff or kill people who need to be killed."

Since his arrival in Kabul, Petraeus has permitted - and in some cases encouraged - the use of tougher measures than his predecessors, the officials said. Soon after taking charge, he revised a tactical directive issued by the commander he replaced, Army Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, to prohibit subordinate officers from placing additional restrictions on the use of air and artillery strikes.

"There is more top-cover support for appropriate aggression," said a civilian adviser to the NATO command in Kabul.

The adviser said McChrystal, who spent much of his military career in secretive Special Operations units, might have been reluctant to increase the tempo of night raids and airstrikes because it could have created the perception that he was not sufficiently supportive of the counterinsurgency strategy. McChrystal also sought to limit raids and airstrikes because errant missions had resulted in the deaths of dozens of civilians, stoking Karzai's anger and threatening to disrupt relations between the two countries.

"Because Petraeus is the author of the COIN [counterinsurgency] manual, he can do whatever he wants. He can manage the optics better than McChrystal could," the adviser said. "If he wants to turn it up to 11, he feels he has the moral authority to do it."

Despite Karzai's recent criticism of the raids and the overall posture of coalition forces - he said he wants military operations reduced - there have been relatively few reports of civilian casualties associated with the recent uptick in raids, airstrikes and explosive demolitions. Military officials said that is because of better intelligence, increased precautions to minimize collateral damage and the support of local leaders who might otherwise be complaining about the tactics. In Kandahar, local commanders have sought the support of the provincial governor and district leaders for the destruction of homes and fields to remove bombs and mines.

"The difference is that the Afghans are underwriting this," said the senior officer in Afghanistan.

Repeated complaints

But many residents near Kandahar do not share the view. They have lodged repeated complaints about the scope of the destruction with U.S. and Afghan officials. In one October operation near the city, U.S. aircraft dropped about two dozen 2,000-pound bombs.

In another recent operation in the Zhari district, U.S. soldiers fired more than a dozen mine-clearing line charges in a day. Each one creates a clear path that is 100 yards long and wide enough for a truck. Anything that is in the way - trees, crops, huts - is demolished.

"Why do you have to blow up so many of our fields and homes?" a farmer from the Arghandab district asked a top NATO general at a recent community meeting.

Although military officials are apologetic in public, they maintain privately that the tactic has a benefit beyond the elimination of insurgent bombs. By making people travel to the district governor's office to submit a claim for damaged property, "in effect, you're connecting the government to the people," the senior officer said.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...1/18/AR2010111806856.html?sid=ST2010111806890
 
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The number of people who want to see the U.S. and NATO effort in Afghanistan fail never ceases to amaze me. :hitwall:

F*** the U.S. effort? Kill the tanks?

If that is the case, I hope these bearded lunatics over-run the entire M.E. The U.S. should leave, and the last act should be dropping millions of leaflets that say "If violence is exported to our shores or assets, or those of our true allies, expect an immense nuclear response. You have stolen our financial aid and spit upon those trying to teach the basics of civilization, like farming and sanitation. Opium is your most valuable crop. You call our women whores and sluts because they aren't dressed like a walking bee-hive. Best of luck living in the 9th century." :sick:
LOL! Wow! That was a tight response ! :lol:
 
For the American Tanks getting in Afghanistan, that was the only failed strategy USA had to re-enforce before. I wish you had cared to ask Russians if Tanks worked for them.. Hehe..

You are forgetting one thing; NATO and US was on your/mujahideen's side supplying all the weapons, logistics needed to fight Russians. Face it; had your former ally not considered Afghanistan at all coming to a peace deal with USSR, you would today be having Afghan SSR on one side and us on the other.
 
Haha Hilarious when you hear about the US trying out all the strategies at the end of the war that the Soviet Union had been using from the very start..
Like GRAPHICAN said.. If tanks really could stop the Afghans then the Map of the southeast ASIA would have been pretty different from what it is today...

But hey! no harm in wasting another few billion dollar... and a few American lives.. since u can afford it! That seems to be the motive behind the US GOV's policy in Afgh.

I honestly feel sorry for the US marines who have no idea why they re even fighting this war. . . everyday you hear about someone losing a limb or worst.. their lives.. FOR WHAT?

Anyone following the current events is aware of the lengths the terrorists have gone in recent times to convince general public they are succeeding against the combat troops and unfortunately the innocent civilians who continue to pay the highest price. It is no secret the terrorists target shopping centers, mosques and schools in their bid to destabilize the AfPak region. Should the US not be vigilant against the enemy who continues to terrorize and claim innocent lives? The least informative person about any military operation would guess that battle tanks are a choice of weapon for most militaries around the world. For example the images below show Pakistan military using the battle tanks on a counterinsurgency mission fighting the enemy.

Pakistan faces tough task rejuvenating battered Swat | Reuters

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/33687-pakistan-army-tank-swat.html

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images...30724581402/Pakistan-army-tanks-arriv-001.jpg

Dear Reader, referring to the deployment of just 14 tanks as “weapons of mass destruction” would seem to be a bit of hyperbole, wouldn’t you agree? . Tanks are a vital weapons system in any modern war, including a counterinsurgency campaign in which protection of the civilian population is paramount. RC-Southwest does indeed plan to deploy the Tank Company in December, which includes 14 tanks and about 115 Marines. This is not the first use of tanks in Afghanistan; both the Canadians and the Danes have employed them. As you know, RC-SW has long been a hotbed of insurgent activity, and Afghan and Coalition forces have encountered tough fighting as they cleared insurgents away from population centers in the Helmand River Valley. The capabilities tanks provide will enable the Marines to isolate insurgent forces from key population centers and provide the ability to project power into insurgent safe havens. The superior optics, maneuverability and precision firepower of the M1A1 Abrams will be helpful to ISAF who operate in contested areas. Let me make something clear, we do not expect the enemy to just vanish. We want to leave behind a government and security forces who can defeat these extremists after our forces leave. But should the US not be tactical in its approach and allow these extremist to continue with their cowardly acts? Dear wali87, the US has made significant progress in the region and most of the success came with the implementation of different strategies at different times. You state the US is trying out all the strategies that the Soviet Union had been using from the very start…Well the strategy must support our mission in the AfPak region irrespective of when it was last used. The deployment of battle tanks enables our forces to secure and observe key routes and areas where insurgents typically place IEDs. Additionally, when employed in key areas where insurgent forces are known to operate, the M1A1's optics also help identify insurgent safe havens, fortifications or massed insurgent forces before they become a threat to the local populace and ISAF. IED emplacement and insurgent activity routinely occurs at night and the tanks' optics are specifically designed to enhance night operations. Tanks also provide robust maneuverability throughout the Area of Operations (AO). While there are several key population areas south of the Helmand River, from the edge of the river valley and down to the Pakistani border areas are vast, open, and rugged deserts. Tanks will be effective in interdicting insurgent forces who attempt to use these areas as ratlines for moving fighters, weapons, explosives, money and drugs. The tracked capability of tanks create a swift mobile force that can close off escape routes, and deter, disrupt and/or pursue insurgent forces in some of Afghanistan’s toughest terrain. I would call to your attention to this blog post from an Army Lt. who has served in Afghanistan recently, which I hope you will agree sheds more light on the issue:

Tanks to Afghanistan, a Soldier Writes - NYTimes.com

We plan extensive coordination through shuras and meetings with district governors, elders and local authorities to assure the employment of tanks is understood as a measure that will protect the population, and Afghan and ISAF as they continue their campaign. We will continue to be aggressive with the extremists and to provide our military with the proper tools to combat. To say that terrorists pose a serious threat to our nations is an understatement and we are completely aware that terrorist must be defeated to ensure the safety of our nations. Dear Wali, do you “still have no idea” as to why the “US soldiers are fighting this war?”

LCDR Bill Speaks,

DET, United States Central Command
CENTCOM
 
Anyone following the current events is aware of the lengths the terrorists have gone in recent times to convince general public they are succeeding against the combat troops and unfortunately the innocent civilians who continue to pay the highest price. It is no secret the terrorists target shopping centers, mosques and schools in their bid to destabilize the AfPak region. Should the US not be vigilant against the enemy who continues to terrorize and claim innocent lives? The least informative person about any military operation would guess that battle tanks are a choice of weapon for most militaries around the world. For example the images below show Pakistan military using the battle tanks on a counterinsurgency mission fighting the enemy.

Pakistan faces tough task rejuvenating battered Swat | Reuters

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/33687-pakistan-army-tank-swat.html

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images...30724581402/Pakistan-army-tanks-arriv-001.jpg

Dear Reader, referring to the deployment of just 14 tanks as “weapons of mass destruction” would seem to be a bit of hyperbole, wouldn’t you agree? . Tanks are a vital weapons system in any modern war, including a counterinsurgency campaign in which protection of the civilian population is paramount. RC-Southwest does indeed plan to deploy the Tank Company in December, which includes 14 tanks and about 115 Marines. This is not the first use of tanks in Afghanistan; both the Canadians and the Danes have employed them. As you know, RC-SW has long been a hotbed of insurgent activity, and Afghan and Coalition forces have encountered tough fighting as they cleared insurgents away from population centers in the Helmand River Valley. The capabilities tanks provide will enable the Marines to isolate insurgent forces from key population centers and provide the ability to project power into insurgent safe havens. The superior optics, maneuverability and precision firepower of the M1A1 Abrams will be helpful to ISAF who operate in contested areas. Let me make something clear, we do not expect the enemy to just vanish. We want to leave behind a government and security forces who can defeat these extremists after our forces leave. But should the US not be tactical in its approach and allow these extremist to continue with their cowardly acts? Dear wali87, the US has made significant progress in the region and most of the success came with the implementation of different strategies at different times. You state the US is trying out all the strategies that the Soviet Union had been using from the very start…Well the strategy must support our mission in the AfPak region irrespective of when it was last used. The deployment of battle tanks enables our forces to secure and observe key routes and areas where insurgents typically place IEDs. Additionally, when employed in key areas where insurgent forces are known to operate, the M1A1's optics also help identify insurgent safe havens, fortifications or massed insurgent forces before they become a threat to the local populace and ISAF. IED emplacement and insurgent activity routinely occurs at night and the tanks' optics are specifically designed to enhance night operations. Tanks also provide robust maneuverability throughout the Area of Operations (AO). While there are several key population areas south of the Helmand River, from the edge of the river valley and down to the Pakistani border areas are vast, open, and rugged deserts. Tanks will be effective in interdicting insurgent forces who attempt to use these areas as ratlines for moving fighters, weapons, explosives, money and drugs. The tracked capability of tanks create a swift mobile force that can close off escape routes, and deter, disrupt and/or pursue insurgent forces in some of Afghanistan’s toughest terrain. I would call to your attention to this blog post from an Army Lt. who has served in Afghanistan recently, which I hope you will agree sheds more light on the issue:

Tanks to Afghanistan, a Soldier Writes - NYTimes.com

We plan extensive coordination through shuras and meetings with district governors, elders and local authorities to assure the employment of tanks is understood as a measure that will protect the population, and Afghan and ISAF as they continue their campaign. We will continue to be aggressive with the extremists and to provide our military with the proper tools to combat. To say that terrorists pose a serious threat to our nations is an understatement and we are completely aware that terrorist must be defeated to ensure the safety of our nations. Dear Wali, do you “still have no idea” as to why the “US soldiers are fighting this war?”

LCDR Bill Speaks,

DET, United States Central Command
CENTCOM

Coordination with Shuras done to death by the USSR...

Still no answer as to why Dilawar was tortured to death??

and how about the American who collected fingers of innocent Afghans he killed for trophies?

I m thinking of the movie "The Beast" and "9th Company"
 
Anyone following the current events is aware of the lengths the terrorists have gone in recent times to convince general public they are succeeding against the combat troops and unfortunately the innocent civilians who continue to pay the highest price. It is no secret the terrorists target shopping centers, mosques and schools in their bid to destabilize the AfPak region. Should the US not be vigilant against the enemy who continues to terrorize and claim innocent lives? The least informative person about any military operation would guess that battle tanks are a choice of weapon for most militaries around the world. For example the images below show Pakistan military using the battle tanks on a counterinsurgency mission fighting the enemy.

Pakistan faces tough task rejuvenating battered Swat | Reuters

http://www.defence.pk/forums/land-forces/33687-pakistan-army-tank-swat.html

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images...30724581402/Pakistan-army-tanks-arriv-001.jpg

Dear Reader, referring to the deployment of just 14 tanks as “weapons of mass destruction” would seem to be a bit of hyperbole, wouldn’t you agree? . Tanks are a vital weapons system in any modern war, including a counterinsurgency campaign in which protection of the civilian population is paramount. RC-Southwest does indeed plan to deploy the Tank Company in December, which includes 14 tanks and about 115 Marines. This is not the first use of tanks in Afghanistan; both the Canadians and the Danes have employed them. As you know, RC-SW has long been a hotbed of insurgent activity, and Afghan and Coalition forces have encountered tough fighting as they cleared insurgents away from population centers in the Helmand River Valley. The capabilities tanks provide will enable the Marines to isolate insurgent forces from key population centers and provide the ability to project power into insurgent safe havens. The superior optics, maneuverability and precision firepower of the M1A1 Abrams will be helpful to ISAF who operate in contested areas. Let me make something clear, we do not expect the enemy to just vanish. We want to leave behind a government and security forces who can defeat these extremists after our forces leave. But should the US not be tactical in its approach and allow these extremist to continue with their cowardly acts? Dear wali87, the US has made significant progress in the region and most of the success came with the implementation of different strategies at different times. You state the US is trying out all the strategies that the Soviet Union had been using from the very start…Well the strategy must support our mission in the AfPak region irrespective of when it was last used. The deployment of battle tanks enables our forces to secure and observe key routes and areas where insurgents typically place IEDs. Additionally, when employed in key areas where insurgent forces are known to operate, the M1A1's optics also help identify insurgent safe havens, fortifications or massed insurgent forces before they become a threat to the local populace and ISAF. IED emplacement and insurgent activity routinely occurs at night and the tanks' optics are specifically designed to enhance night operations. Tanks also provide robust maneuverability throughout the Area of Operations (AO). While there are several key population areas south of the Helmand River, from the edge of the river valley and down to the Pakistani border areas are vast, open, and rugged deserts. Tanks will be effective in interdicting insurgent forces who attempt to use these areas as ratlines for moving fighters, weapons, explosives, money and drugs. The tracked capability of tanks create a swift mobile force that can close off escape routes, and deter, disrupt and/or pursue insurgent forces in some of Afghanistan’s toughest terrain. I would call to your attention to this blog post from an Army Lt. who has served in Afghanistan recently, which I hope you will agree sheds more light on the issue:

Tanks to Afghanistan, a Soldier Writes - NYTimes.com

We plan extensive coordination through shuras and meetings with district governors, elders and local authorities to assure the employment of tanks is understood as a measure that will protect the population, and Afghan and ISAF as they continue their campaign. We will continue to be aggressive with the extremists and to provide our military with the proper tools to combat. To say that terrorists pose a serious threat to our nations is an understatement and we are completely aware that terrorist must be defeated to ensure the safety of our nations. Dear Wali, do you “still have no idea” as to why the “US soldiers are fighting this war?”

LCDR Bill Speaks,

DET, United States Central Command
CENTCOM

How much do they pay you to spread this propaganda? We all know why you went to Iraq and Afghanistan. It has nothing to do with fighting terrorisme or bringing democracy to do those countries. The only country that is terrorizing millions of people around the world is the USA with her hypocritical foreign policy. Everywhere where the USA shows up terrorists show up.
 
How much do they pay you to spread this propaganda? We all know why you went to Iraq and Afghanistan. It has nothing to do with fighting terrorisme or bringing democracy to do those countries. The only country that is terrorizing millions of people around the world is the USA with her hypocritical foreign policy. Everywhere where the USA shows up terrorists show up.

Maghrebi...

The problem is nt that he is just being paid to do this... He probably believes in this crap anyway... The average westerner is extremely ill informed and they cant get a YES SIR!!! from their soldiers unless they do a thorough brain washing of them in training etc... I would not blame him at all... I actually feel sad and sorry for the poor 20 year olds who have given their lives to serve Queen and Country in Afghanistan in a war based upon lies and deceit...
 
Gentlemen - When I made that response, I was angry, and it showed. It is very difficult being a part of this form as a born and bred U.S. citizen. Walking on egg shells doesn't even begin to describe it.

I have a "loved one" who went to Afghanistan absolutely motivated to assist, help, render aid as their unit saw fit. They had specialists in the medical field, economics, farming, sanitation, all of the basic skills so desperately needed by the poor.

Within 3 months, she was horribly depressed. Medical clinics took the supplies and sold them. Advice on agriculture was totally ignored. Despite her head scarf (she wore it out of respect), she was in fact spat upon, called a slut and a whore, the daughter of a donkey, and male children below aged 10 sexually groped her with parental approval. If she didn't hand out candy, a rain of rocks would follow. Shot at, spat upon, humiliated, cheated, scammed, disrespected.

Worse, their whereabouts were reported to the taliban with regularity. These are people sent to help.

I am sickened by legitimate aid efforts being rejected, by the corruption, and by the double-standards. We would never have been there if not for the dozens of vicious attacks by Al-Quaeda, sheltered by those beasts known as the taliban. So forgive me my lack of warm and fuzzy feelings for the "wonderful" people living there.

This is obviously a perfect moment to tangentially delve into the war effort as a whole, and to shift blame on the occupiers. Feel free. No doubt, there will be plenty of "Why are you there in the first place?", etc. 3,000+ dead is why.

As I mentioned in my "deal," we leave; Afghanis, Taliban, TTP, everyone with a suicide bomb and an AK can have at it. When the dust settles, the misery will be beyond understanding. And of course, we will take the blame. Just like HAARP caused the floods.

Just don't export the violence. This war has been fought with kid gloves. It could have been infinitely worse.

I want the U.S. to be a giant Switzerland, caring about nothing but trade, and ignoring all else, both violent activities, and aid activities.
 
Gentlemen - When I made that response, I was angry, and it showed. It is very difficult being a part of this form as a born and bred U.S. citizen. Walking on egg shells doesn't even begin to describe it.

I have a "loved one" who went to Afghanistan absolutely motivated to assist, help, render aid as their unit saw fit. They had specialists in the medical field, economics, farming, sanitation, all of the basic skills so desperately needed by the poor.

Within 3 months, she was horribly depressed. Medical clinics took the supplies and sold them. Advice on agriculture was totally ignored. Despite her head scarf (she wore it out of respect), she was in fact spat upon, called a slut and a whore, the daughter of a donkey, and male children below aged 10 sexually groped her with parental approval. If she didn't hand out candy, a rain of rocks would follow. Shot at, spat upon, humiliated, cheated, scammed, disrespected.

Worse, their whereabouts were reported to the taliban with regularity. These are people sent to help.

I am sickened by legitimate aid efforts being rejected, by the corruption, and by the double-standards. We would never have been there if not for the dozens of vicious attacks by Al-Quaeda, sheltered by those beasts known as the taliban. So forgive me my lack of warm and fuzzy feelings for the "wonderful" people living there.

This is obviously a perfect moment to tangentially delve into the war effort as a whole, and to shift blame on the occupiers. Feel free. No doubt, there will be plenty of "Why are you there in the first place?", etc. 3,000+ dead is why.

As I mentioned in my "deal," we leave; Afghanis, Taliban, TTP, everyone with a suicide bomb and an AK can have at it. When the dust settles, the misery will be beyond understanding. And of course, we will take the blame. Just like HAARP caused the floods.

Just don't export the violence. This war has been fought with kid gloves. It could have been infinitely worse.

I want the U.S. to be a giant Switzerland, caring about nothing but trade, and ignoring all else, both violent activities, and aid activities.

Chogy, if you think YOU find it difficult, please walk a mile in my proverbial shoes!
 
I understand, my friend. You are caught between 2 worlds, with affections and loyalties to both. As are so many....

The world has changed. Globalization is real. What happens in your back yard affects people in other nations. If we don't learn to get along, annihilation is a distinct probablility.

In 100 years, people will be cooking WMD in their garage like they cook drugs today, and anyone with an agenda can and will lash out.
 
Within 3 months, she was horribly depressed. Medical clinics took the supplies and sold them. Advice on agriculture was totally ignored. Despite her head scarf (she wore it out of respect), she was in fact spat upon, called a slut and a whore, the daughter of a donkey, and male children below aged 10 sexually groped her with parental approval. If she didn't hand out candy, a rain of rocks would follow. Shot at, spat upon, humiliated, cheated, scammed, disrespected.

Worse, their whereabouts were reported to the taliban with regularity. These are people sent to help.

I am sickened by legitimate aid efforts being rejected, by the corruption, and by the double-standards. We would never have been there if not for the dozens of vicious attacks by Al-Quaeda, sheltered by those beasts known as the taliban. So forgive me my lack of warm and fuzzy feelings for the "wonderful" people living there.

This is obviously a perfect moment to tangentially delve into the war effort as a whole, and to shift blame on the occupiers. Feel free. No doubt, there will be plenty of "Why are you there in the first place?", etc. 3,000+ dead is why.

As I mentioned in my "deal," we leave; Afghanis, Taliban, TTP, everyone with a suicide bomb and an AK can have at it. When the dust settles, the misery will be beyond understanding. And of course, we will take the blame. Just like HAARP caused the floods.

Just don't export the violence. This war has been fought with kid gloves. It could have been infinitely worse.

I want the U.S. to be a giant Switzerland, caring about nothing but trade, and ignoring all else, both violent activities, and aid activities.

I have a "loved one" who went to Afghanistan absolutely motivated to assist, help, render aid as their unit saw fit. They had specialists in the medical field, economics, farming, sanitation, all of the basic skills so desperately needed by the poor.

Please do pass my sincere apologies to her as an Afghan. She went there to help us and in return she got insults. I am truely ashamed of these actions. I used to work in NGOs in AFghanistan(Care International and DACCAR-the Danish NGO) before i left the country, we used to built small irigation structures as well as bridges, culverts and roads, and believe me my friend the people over there adored these efforts and appreciated it very much, those efforts were nothing but life saving for them. they respected both afghan and non afghan workers. i dont know where and which province this honarable lady did work, but her experience truely sadened me, hope this was an isolated event.
 
Tanks to Afghanistan, a Soldier Writes

atwarbattletank2.jpg


Despite serving in an infantry company and performing infantry patrols during my 12-month tour in Afghanistan, I am actually an armor officer trained to command tank and scout platoons…and the news absolutely warmed my heart.

Most tankers with whom I served in Kandahar recognize the inherent value that armor assets can bring even to the most civilian-friendly counterinsurgency. It is often thought that heavily armored vehicles (Abrams tanks, Bradley Fighting Vehicles, etc.) would be excessive instruments. This argument is not merely in the context of combat, or even intimidation of locals, but the tracks of a main battle tank would most likely destroy the few poorly engineered concrete roads that facilitate the Afghan economy.

Offense & Defense

Driving through minefields is one of the scariest parts of an Afghan tour. A 500-pound I.E.D. is comparable to the psychological effect of a tank’s main gun concussion. My body armor felt more like a pressure cooker around my sweaty chest. As vehicle design has attempted to adapt to this modern threat, the vehicles have inherently become more defensive in nature. They are elevated from the ground to make room for V-shaped hulls. They sacrifice visibility for protection, and combat effectiveness for survivability. But a more defensive vehicle is also an ample target for the enemy.

A battle tank is different. The tank is clearly an offensive vehicle, but with a mine-roller in front and 70 tons of steel to protect its crew, tanks are a fantastic combination of offense and defense on the battlefield. No vehicle is ever immune to the I.E.D. If there is a vehicle on the ground in Afghanistan, the enemy will find a way to blow it up. But tanks are weapon systems capable of taking the hit and continuing the fight.

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The Army’s Mobile Gun System Stryker variant (MGS, see above) is the closest thing the Army has to a tank at its disposal in Afghanistan. This weapon system is rarely discussed when the issue of Stryker Brigade performance is on the table. In fact, I imagine few who have followed the Stryker’s progression in the global war on terror would even recognize the 105 mm main gun turret that rotates on an amplified Stryker hull…but I guarantee the Afghans in Kandahar province know it very well.

However, as I say, a battle tank is different.

Psychology

Driving a Stryker or MRAP down the Afghan highway is much like driving a bus down a crowded street. As Afghan locals become more aware of what behaviors they can get away with before soldiers will respond with their restricted levels of force, it becomes difficult to keep both soldiers and Afghan civilians safe during our movements. But tanks elicit a far different response from the average Afghan.

Most Afghans have distinct visions of the havoc that T-72 Soviet tanks were able to produce from their occupation. As my MGS vehicle rolled through Kandahar streets, no motorcycles cut us off. No oncoming traffic tried to lure us into a game of chicken, as sometimes happened with the infantry carriers. People kept their distance, which kept them safe, and us free to control the tempo of operations.

I’m certainly aware of the argument that rehashing these memories of Soviet tanks to the Afghan people might not be in the best interests of earning their “hearts and minds.” But in Kandahar and Helmand provinces, we are still working on earning their respect. A tank demands respect.

The Power of Sight

Firefights are the bread and butter of daily life in Zhari District; and the enemy has nearly a 100 percent vote in when and how he engages us. Most of these skirmishes occur at ranges exceeding 750 meters amidst dense vegetation. Above all else, the power to see is the most limiting factor in an armed conflict. Currently, most American military vehicles are equipped with remote optics systems, which are useful for urban fire fights at short ranges but do not offer the depth necessary to fight effectively in southwestern Afghanistan. However, tanks offer optics systems that dwarf the traditional capabilities of an infantry carrier…and, oh yeah, these days each tank can acquire targets clearly in excess of four times as far.

Once a target is finally acquired, most people are unaware of just how diverse an array of ammunition choices there are to engage it properly. There are high explosive rounds for light targets, canister rounds for dismounts, which will preserve the local infrastructure, and of course anti-tank rounds in case the Taliban are able to fix up an old relic of previous wars. The tank does not have to be a source of complete destruction. But it is a game changer. And when that fearsome concussion reverberates, the enemy always second guesses its fight.

The Elephant in the Command Post

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As I discussed with colleagues the addition of tanks to the Kandahar mission, I was not surprised to find a strong variety in responses and interpretations of how an armor company integrates with a counterinsurgency mission. A memorable quote from a colleague:

“One minute they’re saying minimize civilian casualties and let ANSF [Afghan National Security Forces] lead the way; the next, we’re bringing in arguably the most fierce ground weapon system in our Army’s arsenal. I think we’re sending mixed signals.”

Another veteran of the Afghan war currently set to return as a civilian noted:

“Anything that separates us from the population makes us less likely to win the war. All the successful COIN initiatives in Afghanistan involve dismounted operations, living with the population, minimizing the distance and difference between us and them.”

But from a tactical perspective, a senior tanker NCO hailed the idea:

“We can talk about Afghans all day, but it’s really hard to go interact with locals when there’s a minefield and Taliban fighting positions in the way. Tanks will help us fill the gaps where the infantry cannot cover. Both are important.”

Thus, the real strategic question becomes, are these tanks a supplement to the counterinsurgency mission, or a diversion from it? If the latter, what implications arise for our approach to state-building?

Not the first. Not the last.

One of the most memorable moments during our 12 month tour was arriving on FOB Wilson in Zhari, Kandahar, for the weekly district security shura and watching the tanker half of my platoon swoon over the troop of Canadian Leopard 2A6Ms parked in the motor-pool. Memories of past I.E.D.s and firefights flowed through our heads. And of course, we couldn’t help but wonder, “What if…”.

Perhaps in my excitement for these tanks I am personally still stuck in “survival mode” from my year in Kandahar; perhaps I’m failing to see the negative strategic implications that will follow these tanks into southern Afghanistan. But then again, the soldiers who patrol those sectors each day are always in survival mode. If a tank has any chance at keeping them safe during their dangerous tour, I’ll be the first to give it a fair shot.

These Marine tanks will not be the first to enter Afghanistan. But they will no doubt make a resounding impact when integrated with conventional infantry. This will no doubt be a game changer in our fight against the Taliban. From the sidelines here in the United States, the crossed sabers on my chest beat with tanker pride.

Tanks to Afghanistan, a Soldier Writes - NYTimes.com
 
Sending Tanks to Afghanistan

By ROD NORDLAND AND SANGAR RAHIMI

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Old Russian tanks lined up along the road in the Panjshir Valley in 2004

KABUL, Afghanistan — The byways of Afghanistan are still littered with burned and bombed out old Soviet tanks, T-55s too big and hulking to move economically, especially from their final resting places on narrow mountain roads and at the bottoms of deep gorges.

Using rocket-propelled grenade launchers and buried mines, the mujaheddin fighters in that war made a mockery of the Soviet Union’s vaunted armor. So it is no surprise that during the war against the Taliban, those American armored units that have come here have for the most part left their tanks behind.

That is about to change, with the announcement by the Pentagon that a Marine Corps tank company, 14 M1A1 Abrams main battle tanks, the biggest in the United States arsenal, and 115 Marine crewmen, would be deployed to Helmand Province next month.

American military officials were quick to offer assurance that we will not, however, be making the same mistakes as the Soviets — sending tanks into mountainous terrain where guerrilla fighters have all the advantages. Instead, they’ll be deployed in desert areas of Helmand Province, outside population centers, according to Lt. Col. John L. Dorrian, an ISAF spokesman.

“The Taliban will try to infiltrate into areas where they’ve been forced to pull out, and these are desert areas that are inaccessible for wheeled vehicles,” he said. “The tank gives you the ability to interdict groups who are way out there.”

A lot of the old muj leaders who fought against Soviet tanks were dubious about this move.

“The Americans may take the initiative in the war for a short period of time following bringing in tanks,” said Commander Hafizullah, a former muj leader in eastern Afghanistan who now works for the Afghan intelligence service, the National Directorate of Security. “But of course the Taliban would change their tactics and manufacture stronger and stronger and more sophisticated land mines and I.E.D.s, with help from allies like Al Qaeda and the Pakistani intelligence service.”

Even Cmdr. Haji Muhammad Salih Safari, a former muj commander in Garmsir district of Helmand Province, thought it was a bad idea.

“The tanks won’t help the Americans win the Afghan war,” Commander Safari said. “The Taliban are always using civilians as human shields, and sometimes villagers get caught in the middle of a firefight between Americans and the Taliban. If Americans use the heavy guns of their tanks it would definitely endanger civilians’ lives and increase the already wide gap between Americans and ordinary Afghans.

“Our people already have bitter memories of the Russian tanks,” said Haji Ahalullah Obeidi, a former Muj commander in Helmand Province. “Tanks will remind them of this; our people still have Russian tanks roaring in their minds. All tanks do is bring destruction. This is not a war between two countries or two armies, to use tanks in it. It’s just a war between two dissident brothers.”

When the American tanks arrive, they won’t be the first in the theater. Danish troops in Helmand province and Canadian troops in neighboring Kandahar province already have deployed them.

Sending Tanks to Afghanistan - NYTimes.com
 

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