Tracking jf-17 information post Zuhai air show

[PAFAce]

Well, cm dispensers are a basic necessity. I they have been installed, but the bottom shot doesn't show it. It could be that they have ben moved from the trailing edge extensions (as in the prototype and F-16) onto the insides of the fuselage (not the square panels, but to the right of them).

Let's make this easy. I've highlighted some possible areas. I don't think it's any of these, though. Share your thoughts, please.

Could it be that the CM racks would be externally mounted?

 

[Bossman]

notorious_eagle,

My friend---for a country like pakistan---the scrutiny that is it under---it is always the best practise for its millitary wing to keep as much material under the wraps that it can.

In the last 45 years we have seen what happens to us---we get something better and then we strutt and preen around like stallions high on testosterone---and then we get sanctioned or we run out of funds and don't have the money to get what we desperately needed.

This national character and heritage needs to be changed.

I am riminded of the conversation between ELIAHU COHEN and the syrian army colonel on the golan heights---when Cohen asks the Col----when these ****** israeli 'p-g-' come over I fear we have no protection---and the colonel proudly waves his hands towards the directions of the hidden gun placements---missiles sites and howitzers---retorting---those ****** israelis would never get through---.

I get a feeling of dejavu all over again---.

On the last part of your post--it is a little bit different---pakistan didnot inform india that we had a cruise missile---india thought it had a leg up on us when it showed us what it wanted the treaty on what kind of missiles---we didnot volunteer any info on that---they didnot ask for it because they assumed that we were not capable of manufacturing the system ie BABUR---.

It is a universal standard----PROMISE LESS DELIVER MORE----but paf has changed to PROMISE MORE DELIVER LESS. Until and unless the paf is not confronted and forced to change its mindset---we got a problem.

PAF has become a branch of millitary that is full of excuses---legitimate or illegitimate---the bottomline is that the nation needs a job to be done---and if you wear the blue uniform with wings on it---then better step upto the plate and be the man you are.

We pakistanis----have always accepted their excuses without questioning their integrity---but on the other hand we always challenge the integrity of our army---and look at the army---through thick and thin---they have found what they needed----.

5 years is a good time to have a group of dedicated servicemen efficient in what they operate---we are talking about the JF 17---the F 16 blk 52 and mlu's and the awacs---not bringing into picture the J 10's yet.

Yes---the BVR's will totally change the psyche of the pakistani flyers and their opponents---just like the AK47 has been called the greatest equalizer of power and strength for a human being---in the similiar manner bvr's have what it takes to rule the skies.


WAQAS,

You have done it again---thanks---you need to understand one thing---our board here is comparatively more democratic and is open to extremely critical discussion as long as it stays within reason.

That other place does not want anything said aganist the air force---.

I guess the members never read what I was saying---they only read what they wanted to see---.

Let the chinese release the information---let anyone else release the information about the SD 10 or our radar and electronics system---it doesnot become a news---it only stays as a release / information.

It becomes a news item when the end user starts flaunting its capabilities---that is when it begins to make waves on the political front.

The millitaries are already in the know and they are trying to come up with things to counter the issues----thet part is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the political part in this scenario---the political problems with any weapons purchase had made paf an impotent air force in the past---.

We strutted around our F 16's in the 80's----the psyche of pakistani public---everything had F 16 picture on it---they got sanctioned---if for some reason we could have laid low as a public---learnt to be secretive like the israelis or the south africans and not bragged about what we could do with that aircraft---could the things been different---or if we as civilians not bragged about our nuc capabilities openly at every gathering ( like our presidents and prime ministers and every politician would threaten india with our nuc strike and pluck their eyes out or break their faces) could the things have been different---maybe 50 / 50.

Bottomline----paf needs to learn to keep its mouth shut as of now---when you don't perfom well at your job, you try to lay low---keep your mouth shut and do better to come out ahead at the end of the day---and then let the people see the results of what you have done----then let us decide what to tell you.

Mastaan,

You are not making any sense with all these long winded posts of yours and I suspect that you use multiple ids and yourself post postive comments about your owns post. Nobody in the proper mind can make sense of what you post not even 13 year old kids.

As far as your accusition against PAF about llifting the lid on BVRAMS please read up on the article in Janes which quoted the officials of the Chinese company which manufactures SD-10 about its capability. What PAF said about SD-10 i.e. as quoted by Eagel Hannan was much less than what was printed in the article. The article was published as the same time as PAF officials were quoted about SD-10. This was not a coincidence. Most probably, the information was cleared for release both by Pakistanis and Chinese. I think your problem is that after years of belittling JF-17 and SD-10 you finally realise that you were wrong and now you are trying to save face by blaming PAF for letting its secrets out. In other words trying get some credibility back.

 

[Bossman]

Mani2020,

They are hopping mad at me---because, I have questioned the image they created of their god---I have put a chink in the armour of their idol---that happens----that all what this reaction is.

Do you really think that if it was in error, anyone at the air force would admit to the mistake----not a chance---they will cover it up like as if nothing happened---like that comment from the paf pilot about chinese flyers.

PAF doesnot need to be protected from members of a defence forum---they need to be put into the stand to be questioned about their deeds of not living upto the standards set.

Mastaan, nobody gives a hoot about you so don't delude yourself. You are showing classic signs of delusional megalomania. I think you need to get back on Lithium.

 

[ANG]

Dear Moderators, I kindly please request you bring this topic back on track as it has been very informative and I have found a lot of exciting new information about the JF-17 and its future weapons systems. There is no need for personal attacks or potential presciption medication recommendations. Thanks!

 

[MastanKhan]

Dear MastanKhan,

My point is simply this: If you hold onto your Ace for too long, you might lose your chance to play it, or it may lose its impact. If the PAF has revealed some of what they are cooking, even if it is something completely unexpected and sizzling hot, it won't necessarily ruin the flavor for our enemies.

Hi,

My goodman---isn't that what I have been saying----wait till we get the ace in our hands---then we can talk---then we can do all the sun tzu---or whatever we want to---.

All I am saying is stop bragging about what we don't have---secondly---millitaries don't brag about their capabilities all the time----based on the belief---" BARKING DOGS SELDOM BITE "---men of action don't have to say much---they prove it with their actions---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastaan,


. I think your problem is that after years of belittling JF-17 and SD-10 you finally realise that you were wrong and now you are trying to save face by blaming PAF for letting its secrets out. In other words trying get some credibility back.

Bossman,

You are beyond salvation---you maybe the one to cut off his nose to spite his face---but if and when he JF 17 comes up to be a potent weapon---I will gladly accept my mistake and error in judgement.

But I don't think that you had the ability to understand over the years what I had talked about---about JF 17 or any other weapons system---.

Dig in a little deeper kid---my point of view always has been about the timing of the procurement---.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

Well, cm dispensers are a basic necessity. I they have been installed, but the bottom shot doesn't show it. It could be that they have ben moved from the trailing edge extensions (as in the prototype and F-16) onto the insides of the fuselage (not the square panels, but to the right of them).

Let's make this easy. I've highlighted some possible areas. I don't think it's any of these, though. Share your thoughts, please.

Could it be that the CM racks would be externally mounted?

Sir See here,

1- Red circles on ur picture are actually showing the downward air breaks + there are two breaks on upper side too.The picture i posted above, showing the deployed airbreaks.
2 - Yellow Circled is fully covered by the fuel tanks. simply it cant be and neither make any sense.
3 - Green Circled area in case of loading lager tail/fin weapon like RA'AD, GBU-10 or the fuel tank itself covering it, is extremal dangerous because Flares are not guided.
4- All is about Blue. those shiny plates but they seems to be some other kind of device rather then dispensers.

i ve shared mine with proper research.

 

[araz]

Bossman,

You are beyond salvation---you maybe the one to cut off his nose to spite his face---but if and when he JF 17 comes up to be a potent weapon---I will gladly accept my mistake and error in judgement.

But I don't think that you had the ability to understand over the years what I had talked about---about JF 17 or any other weapons system---.

Dig in a little deeper kid---my point of view always has been about the timing of the procurement---.

Mastan And Bossman.
Can we please end this childish tooing and froing. Mastan to reiterate, the information passed on by the poster which started this whole fracas has been on the net for some time and in print at the time of release.Even then one of the first sentences he wrote was that he had cleared it with the relevant officer before printing it. As such your view point is just that and nothing more.Even a nobody like me knows more than what has been posted. We have listened to your argument but there is agreement that it is illfounded, however well intentioned. Lets just leave it at that.
Guys its time to move on and discuss the plane and its capabilities in light of its stirling display rather than whether the news should have been displayed or not.
Araz

 

[Mani2020]

I have created a good thread but i m so sad of it being getting ruined through personal attacks .

it doesnot matter now that the information was worthy of releasing or not .the thing which matter the most is that it has been released now.and nobody can do nothing about it.so its better to discuss the capabilities of jf-17 rather than arguing on whether it was necessary to leak it or not

For heaven sake get back on track

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan And Bossman.
Can we please end this childish tooing and froing. Mastan to reiterate, the information passed on by the poster which started this whole fracas has been on the net for some time and in print at the time of release.Even then one of the first sentences he wrote was that he had cleared it with the relevant officer before printing it. As such your view point is just that and nothing more.Even a nobody like me knows more than what has been posted. We have listened to your argument but there is agreement that it is illfounded, however well intentioned. Lets just leave it at that.
Guys its time to move on and discuss the plane and its capabilities in light of its stirling display rather than whether the news should have been displayed or not.
Araz

Hi Araz,

We are oceans apart----no mid ranking officer has the authority to clear any information about any material that is not in active service and still there are restraints even if it is in active service.

No Lt or Major or Colonel can talk about and release any info in a public setting---. The guy / officer possibly had a few drinks and spilled it all out in the euphoria of being at zhuhai. Now they are all covering up for it making it sound like nothing happened.

My comments have nothing to do with what has been on the net---and I am disappointed at you for not having the ability to learn what difference the news makes when it comes out of the end-users mouth.

There is no legitimacy in the information that you know or I know or anybody else knows on the net---that is all based upon rumour and speculations.

You may have the pictures and blueprints of the actual workings of the material in question but until and unless the end user don't confirm if it is real or not---till then it is all in the air---and this basic thing that you cannot understand---that is a tragedy for my country and motherland---and you know why---if an educated and brilliant pakistani man like you don't have the understanding and acceptance of this basic fundamental of secrecy and how it works---then truthfully, it is a big loss for the nation.

We are habitually bragging about what we don't have----regardless of understanding as to how many nation are out there trying to string is up and put restarints upon us and they have done that many a times.

Millitary is all about secrecy----all millitary weapons in development are veiled in secrecy---even though there are organisations out there that would want to know the capabilities of the items in question. So---off course there are leaks and info is available---but why are the capabilities of the weapons system being disclosed even before the end user has them in full scale deployment---and even then they don't talk about it.

You know---does anybody have any information on the armour of the current British tank---any info on the armour of the current american leading tank or the israeli merkava---they have been in service for years now and still the veil of secrecy---.

What world are you living in sir----like every jack over here thinks the millitary equipment news has to be displayed openly in public forums and on the front pages of the news media---. Since when have we started setting the standards of no secrecy for upcoming or in service weapons systems.



Mani200---you have created a good thread---that is all you can do---no one dictates the direction the thread takes---sometimes it creates a life and direction of its own---if the news gets wings---it will fly---.

 

[PAFAce]

No Lt or Major or Colonel can talk about and release any info in a public setting

Colonels in the Pakistan Army can have quite a bit of authority. That's also when you get the "red tape". Many officers with distinguished war-time or conflict-zone performances have retired as Colonels because they didn't do the required officers training courses (because of military engagements). I, myself, have seen a Brigadier refer to a Colonel as "Sir" and standing up to meet him (but not saluting first).

Point being, rank isn't everything. A lower ranking officer can sometimes be an authority on something. I remember Murad Khan related once that a Wing Commander is in fact the most powerful person in the Air Force, especially one with combat experience. What he says, goes.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Colonels in the Pakistan Army can have quite a bit of authority. That's also when you get the "red tape". Many officers with distinguished war-time or conflict-zone performances have retired as Colonels because they didn't do the required officers training courses (because of military engagements). I, myself, have seen a Brigadier refer to a Colonel as "Sir" and standing up to meet him (but not saluting first).Point being, rank isn't everything. A lower ranking officer can sometimes be an authority on something. I remember Murad Khan related once that a Wing Commander is in fact the most powerful person in the Air Force, especially one with combat experience. What he says, goes.

Thts coz the colonel might be his senior so he(brig) called him sir keeping in mind hid seniority or service.

 

[khurasaan1]

I guess u guyz r enjoying ur discussions........

 

[PAFAce]

I don't know what you are saying---but no colonel has authority to release national secerets to the public or as a matter of fact any operational secrets or secrets related to performance and that goes for the powerful wing commamnder as well.

You kids are so out of touch with reality.

You misunderstood. I was simply trying to change the topic. Forget about it.

 

[Mani2020]

Jane's: China’s SD-10 missile performance

According to JDW (Jane's Defense Weekly) December 01, 2010 issue, the Chinese made SD-10 BVR AAM maker LOTDC (Luoyang Optoelectronic Technology Development Center) has claimed that SD-10 from the very start was designed to use dual Active plus Passive guidance systems. If so then SD-10 will become the first BVR AAM commissioned to date, with such exceptional capabilities.

At the end of November, during Zhuhai Air Show, LOTDC described in detail the guidance system of SD-10 to JDW. Broad public awareness exists about the guidance and tracking system of the earlier SD-10s but according to JDW, the latest details go well beyond this and include the missile-oriented target tracking system and ECM capabilities.

An LOTDC official claimed that the Passive Homing Mode isn’t the primary mode of guidance for SD-10 since it can potentially be harmful for the friendly aircraft.

At present it isn’t clear whether SD-10 continuously switches back and forth between the Active and Passive Modes or both can be used continuously.


Russia is also helping LOTDC in the R&D of SD-10.

An LOTDC official said, "We can manufacture the seeker ourselves but we need the Russian help to keep improving it.”

He also accepted that some parts are still imported.

In Russia, AGAT Design Bureau has designed several dual seekers that may be using Active, Semi-Active and Passive Modes but their Active and Passive Mode homing is programmed to switch according to a pre-set sequence.

AGAT Design Bureau claimed that in the Passive Mode, their detectors can detect the radar emissions of an airplane from almost a distance of about 200 km while in the Active Mode, the seeker only has a range of about 20 km.

Back in the 1990s, China’s 9B-1032 Passive Anti-Radiation Seeker had a maximum detection range of about 240 km. May be this same seeker is now the Passive Seeker of SD-10.

According to some experts, ECM capability of SD-10 is quite good; effective against several types of electronic interferences that basically cover the whole range of the current types of the electronic interferences.


The performance of SD-10 is better than the US AIM-120 A & B, Russian R-77 and Mica of France.

LOTDC has identified two versions of this missile only: SD-10 and the current SD-10A.

SD-10A has a number of changes in its design but the most important improvement are its added stability and its additional load carrying capacity.

SD-10 is quite versatile and can be used by a variety of advanced fighters. With the cooperation of Brazil, ‘xiaolong’ fighters (JF-17) were able to launch SD-10 missiles.

An LOTDC official said that most of the R&D work of the SD-10 is complete except may be some minor fine-tuning of the rocket motor.

Also, in future, some SD-10 versions may be used as SAMs by the Army and Navy as well.

(Compilation: Ssu-nien)