The Image of Pakistan Army Fast Getting Restored

[blain2]

The answer to your first para has already been given in my previous post where I said that Army is not suitable for such a role thus fails no matter how good the intentions. However if you look at the history of Pakistan, during every single military rule, more infrastructure development has been done, more emphasis has been put on economic development. The problem in Pakistan is that as soon as a civilian government comes in, it wants to re-invent the wheel and start from scratch. So the gains are marginal (when they could be greater if consistency of policies is carried forward).

You say that Army stepped in when the situation was bad. How bad? Who has the definition of ‘bad situation’? Was the country under attack and the political leadership failed to cope with the situation? Or was there a mutiny that civilians were unable to control? How bad was the situation when Ayub took over the command from Iskander Mirza? How bad was the situation when Yahya literally inherited from Ayub? How bad was the situation when Zia took over the charge just before the politicians had reached to a truce? How can we defend the action of Zia when he sent Junejo government home? And more recently, when Musharraf sent NS home?

The situation has been pretty bad at least in the 90s. It was bad to the point of Pakistan's security situation becoming perilous. Beyond that the definition of bad is essentially the mood of the public. When Zia took over from Bhutto, there was relief on the streets of Pakistan, when Musharraf did the same, there was mithai distributed all around. The fact that its not good in the long term is known to all, however the politicians have to take the blame for why this happens.

As I have said before, for politicians, put this poor, deprived country ahead of yourself for once and you will see the people defend the government against any Army encroachment. That is the security...be good to the people of Pakistan and they will not allow any usurper (uniformed or otherwise) to take over.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The problem occurs when the general stops being a general and tries to be like a civilian---it is just like a tiger hiding its fangs.

The moment Musharraf became weak on crime and punishment---he was done. Now how did he get weak on that issue---it was due to his party---the Chaudhry brothers---weak sucks---that was the single weakest moment at the start of his term---there were no public hangings of heinious crimes---gang rapes and forcing women to walk naked became an every day happeing.

That is why I stated that Shahbaz Sharif was a natural choice for the prime ministership of pakistan---he had cleaned up punjab during his tenure---he would have cleaned up the nation as the leader.

How do you tell the men from the boyz---it is the sacrifices that they make for their nation---Shahbaz failed to make the sacrifice---nation need the sacrifice of men and women to stand up and prosper---only one thing gets the nation going---the blood and the conviction of the strong.

Mohammad Ali Jinnah made the sacrifice of his life for pakistan---within a year he paid the ultimate price. When others were asked to step up to the plate---they chickened out---Shahbaz---Imran---Amin Fahim---what did that leave us with---the rabble---the Chaudhry biradiran---.

When Ayub came into power---I remember my friends living in Sukkur told me that river indus had turned red----guess why----the merchants had thrown their crushed red peppers in the river----you guys want to know why---they had crushed the red bricks and mixed the powder in with the crushed pepper---one of the very first proclamations of Ayub were against merchants who were mixing inferior or harmful stuff to food items----the punishment was 100 lashes---just after the first few---pure and clean food items were available throughout the country---till Bhutto came into power.

Actually I know of first hand the person whose father died of the lashings---right on the tiktiki---.

The situation is bad when the civilian are sitting in the army house with the general, forcing the army to act---the situation is bad when the army has to hear profanity from public for not acting.

My pakistani brethren have a problem---they have a problem in comprehending problems facing them---our politicians have a problem in accepting the truth---they are incompetent, they are out of touch with reality, they have no comprehension of building the foundations of a nation, they do not know what does it take to build a nation------------------.

On this board---every pakistani muslim is a great teacher of islam and same is true for all the non pakistani muslims on this board or otherwise----.

So---if you can find yourself the answer to the question----why did people convert to islam 1400 years ago and post it here---we will find the truth to the problem.

 

[TaimiKhan]

AoA,

Thx Mastan, well qsaark u r not still getting the point, Gen. Butt was a damn engineer, that was the main issue. U dont put a non fighting guy incharge of such an army. Its not about superseding or putting a favorite, it was about principals, plus nawaz had already made one general go. Gen Karamat resigned on his advice of a security council thing.

And as for 31 years of army, i guess same number of years civilian govt has ruled too, check out the development done during both tenures.

As for 71, that was a national disaster, which involves military and civilian leadership both. And in 71 u have to consider that it was not only our fault but india was very much involved in it also, including many of our bangali bros who were decieved by india, which helped them in their plot.

Cut short, as blain said army is not for this task, they do well at the start because they have a better management system, but they gradually start to fail as they r not designed to run a state. They have to support it. And for one thing i am damn sure, army guys have more patriotism compared to our politicians who just wana make money.

Mushy uncle may had performed better then all the previous others, but i guess he also lost the way due to his own mistakes and due to conspiracies being hatched against pakistan.

I wish and hope our politicians get together their act and start working for pakistan and PA does what it does best, protect our borders and sovereignty.

May Allah keep Pakistan in peace.

 

[TaimiKhan]

And guys one thing more, as for that book Army Inc, there were sooooooooooooooooooooooo many inaccuracies in it. And the shameful thing for us is that an american had written a rebuttal against that book by clearing many allegations against PA & how the organizations are run by PA for betterment of Pakistan, by giving employment and generating revenues for pak economy. Which that idiotic ayesha siddqa had written. These are such people who with their such kind of books and allegations help the people who are trying to destabilize pak.

 

[Xeric]

Oooooo it's again MK, Qsaak, Blain and Xeric 'nexus', o yes we have another khan-taimi, where's Agno BTW. They same old arguments ..hmmmms ok, no problems, we would stay like that and PDF would be the platform.

 

[batmannow]

i guss, this PDF platform , with all of its weaknesses & its powers, is doing prety good job, every one has his own view, & his own choices to make!
for me, "PAKARMY" & "PAKAWAM", JEWAY JEWAY PAKISTAN!
& "BHAR MEIN JAEIN SAREY SIASTDAN"

ITS CALLED , THE THEORY FROM GOTHM CITY!

 

[qsaark]

Thx Mastan, well qsaark u r not still getting the point, Gen. Butt was a damn engineer, that was the main issue. U dont put a non fighting guy incharge of such an army. Its not about superseding or putting a favorite, it was about principals, plus nawaz had already made one general go. Gen Karamat resigned on his advice of a security council thing.

It looks like you are not getting the point. First of all, the PM had the constitutional right of whom to appoint as the COAS. Secondly, is there any manual or code or something written somewhere that says that non-fighting guy can not be appointed as the COAS? So the bottom line is, the PM of that time had all the constitutional power to appoint whomever he pleased to. What PM did was constitutional, what Musharraf and his cronies did was unconstitutional.

And as for 31 years of army, i guess same number of years civilian govt has ruled too, check out the development done during both tenures.

Don’t talk about the civilians, they are ‘bloody’, lazy, corrupt what not. Tell me what Pakistan achieved in the able hands of the Generals?

As for 71, that was a national disaster, which involves military and civilian leadership both. And in 71 u have to consider that it was not only our fault but india was very much involved in it also, including many of our bangali bros who were decieved by india, which helped them in their plot.

Wrong, it was we who created the situation and Indians only exploited it. Bengalis were considered second class citizen right from the beginning and there are number of references that can be given to support this notion.

Cut short, as blain said army is not for this task, they do well at the start because they have a better management system, but they gradually start to fail as they r not designed to run a state. They have to support it. And for one thing i am damn sure, army guys have more patriotism compared to our politicians who just wana make money.

I do not share your optimism. Not all politicians are satan and not all Generals are angels. If what Iskander, and Ayub and Yahya, and Zia, and Musharraf has done to this country is called patriotism, than I’ll prefer my country to be run by non-patriotic politicians.

Mushy uncle may had performed better then all the previous others, but i guess he also lost the way due to his own mistakes and due to conspiracies being hatched against pakistan.

I will rather not comment on this. There are other threads where his ‘achievements’ have been discussed in detail from the high foreign reserves (due to 9/11 when OSPs sent money home and selling profiting national assets on ridiculously low prices) to the completion of mega projects such as Gawadar Deep sea port etc. which were all incepted in the time of BB and NSs governments.

I wish and hope our politicians get together their act and start working for pakistan and PA does what it does best, protect our borders and sovereignty.

May Allah keep Pakistan in peace.

Agreed in full.

 

[Zulfiqar]

Taimi Khan, just to let you know the present GOC in Swat Maj Gen Sajjad Ghani is also from Engineers.I am pretty sure he is doing a good job up there.

We might not be a fan of Gen Butt and how he was chosen but please stop using words like "Damn Engineers",there are others who are doing just fine. Even Gen Butt was once a Corp Commander.

Regards

 

[Xeric]

It looks like you are not getting the point. First of all, the PM had the constitutional right of whom to appoint as the COAS. Secondly, is there any manual or code or something written somewhere that says that non-fighting guy can not be appointed as the COAS? So the bottom line is, the PM of that time had all the constitutional power to appoint whomever he pleased to. What PM did was constitutional, what Musharraf and his cronies did was unconstitutional.

How about having a Vet Doc overseeing and honcho-ing a Hospital (for humans) or may be we can have him as its chieftain?

 

[qsaark]

How about having a Vet Doc overseeing and honcho-ing a Hospital (for humans) or may be we can have him as its chieftain?

Counter my argument with argument if you have one.

 

[Xeric]

Counter my argument with argument if you have one.

i though it was an argument, only if you were able to counter it yourself.

Anywaz, here's the list of our Commanders. Please take some pain and check, how many Supporting Arm Senior Officers are Commanding Offensive or operational/fighting outfits, except a one or may be two:

Current Army Senior Command

1. General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, Baloch — Chief of Army Staff. (Colonel-in-Chief of the Baloch Regiment) due to retire on November 28, 2010.
2. General Tariq Majid, Baloch — Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee. due to retire on October 8, 2010.
3. Lt Gen Raza Muhammad Khan, Arty[1] — DG Joint Staff, JS HQ, Chaklala. due to retire on September 23, 2009.
4. Lt Gen Muhammad Masood Aslam, Punjab — Commander XI Corps, Peshawar. (Colonel Commandant of the Punjab Regiment) due to retire on September 23, 2009.
5. Lt Gen Shafaat Ullah Shah, Baloch[2] — Chief of Logistics Staff (CLS), GHQ. (Colonel Commandant of the Baloch Regiment) due to retire on September 23, 2009.
6. Lt Gen Mohammad Hamid Khan, AC[3] — President National Defence University (NDU), Islamabad. (Colonel Commandant of the Armoured Corps) due to retire on September 23, 2009.
7. Lt Gen Ahsan Azhar Hayat, AC[1] — Inspector General Training and Evaluation (IGT&E), GHQ. due to retire on April 11, 2010.
8. Lt Gen Sajjad Akram, Baloch[2] — Deputy Chairman Earthquake Reconstruction & Rehabilitation Authority (ERRA). due to retire on April 11, 2010.
9. Lt Gen Nadeem Ahmad, Sind — Commander I Strike Corps, Mangla. due to retire on April 11, 2010.
10. Lt Gen Sikandar Afzal, AC[4] — Commander II Strike Corps, Multan. due to retire on April 11, 2010.
11. Lt Gen Ijaz Ahmed Bakhshi, Arty[2] — Commander IV Corps, Lahore. due to retire on April 11, 2010.
12. Lt Gen Khalid Shameem Wynne, Punjab — Commander XII Corps, Quetta. due to retire on March 8, 2011.
13. Lt Gen Muhammad Ashraf Saleem, AD[5] — Commander Army Air Defence Command. (Colonel Commandant of the Army Air Defence) due to retire on March 8, 2011.
14. Lt Gen Shahid Niaz, Engrs[5] — Engineer-in-Chief of Pakistan Army. (Colonel Commandant of the Corps of Engineers) due to retire on March 8, 2011.
15. Lt Gen Muhammad Yousaf, Arty[1] — Commander XXXI Corps, Bahawalpur. due to retire on March 8, 2011.
16. Lt Gen Syed Absar Hussain, Arty[5] — Commander Army Strategic Forces Command, Rawalpindi due to retire on March 8, 2011.
17. Lt Gen Javed Zia, Punjab[6] — Adjutant General (AG), GHQ. due to retire on September 21, 2011.
18. Lt Gen Shujaat Zamir Dar, Punjab[7] — Chairman Pakistan Ordnance Factories, Wah Cantt. due to retire on September 21, 2011.
19. Lt Gen Mohsin Kamal, Punjab[1] — Military Secretary (MS), GHQ. (Colonel Commandant of the Northern Light Infantry Regiment) due to retire on September 21, 2011.
20. Lt Gen Muhammad Asghar, Engrs[8] — Rector, NUST, Rawalpindi. due to retire on September 21, 2011.
21. Lt Gen Jamil Haider, Arty — Inspector General Arms, GHQ. due to retire on September 21, 2011.
22. Lt Gen Nadeem Taj, Punjab — Commander XXX Corps, Gujranwala. due to retire on September 21, 2011.
23. Lt Gen Muhammad Rehan Burney, AMC[2] — Surgeon General/DG Medical Services (Inter-Services), Medical Directorate, GHQ. (Colonel Commandant of the Army Medical Corps) due to retire on March 24, 2012.
24. Lt Gen Tahir Mahmood, Punjab[1] — Commander X Corps, Rawalpindi. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
25. Lt Gen Shahid Iqbal, Baloch[1] — Commander V Corps, Karachi. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
26. Lt Gen Tanvir Tahir, EME[1] — IG Communications and IT, GHQ. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
27. Lt Gen Zahid Hussain, Arty[6] — Quarter-Master General (QMG), GHQ. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
28. Lt Gen Ahmad Shuja Pasha, FF[1] — DG Inter-Services Intelligence (DG ISI), ISI HQ, Islamabad. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
29. Lt Gen Muhammad Mustafa Khan, AC[1] — Chief of General Staff (CGS), GHQ. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
30. Lt Gen Ayyaz Saleem Rana, AC[1] — Chairman Heavy Industries Taxila. due to retire on September 29, 2012.
31. Lt Gen Naeem Khalid Lodhi, Engrs[9] — Chief Staff Officer to COAS. due to retire on February 17, 2013.
32. Maj Gen Tassawar Hussain, AMC — Principal Army Medical College, Rawalpindi.
33. Maj Gen Mir Haider Ali Khan, FF (superseded) — Additional Secretary-I (Army), Ministry of Defence.
34. Maj Gen Muhammad Tariq Masood, Baloch[6] (superseded) — Member Logistics Reform Committee, Lahore Corps.
35. Maj Gen Shafique Ahmed Kayani, AMC — Deputy Surgeon General/DG Medical Services (Inter-Services), Medical Directorate, GHQ.
36. Maj Gen Asif Akhtar, Baloch[6] (superseded) — DG National Guard (NG).
37. Maj Gen Syed Guftar Shah, EME[10] (superseded) — DG Defence Science and Technology Organisation (DESTO), DESTO HQ, Rawalpindi.
38. Maj Gen Syed Khalid Amir Jaffery, Arty (superseded) — DG Anti-Narcotics Force (ANF), Ministry of Interior.
39. Maj Gen Nusrat Naeem, Arty (superseded) — .
40. Maj Gen Asif Ali, Engrs (superseded) — Surveyor General, Survey of Pakistan.
41. Maj Gen Shaukat Sultan, Sind (superseded) — DG Foreign Military Cooperation (FMC), JS HQ.
42. Maj Gen Nasim ul Majid, AMC — DG Surgery, Medical Directorate, GHQ
43. Maj Gen Badshah Khan, AMC — DG Medicine, Medical Directorate, GHQ
44. Maj Gen Muhammad Akram Sahi, Punjab[6] (superseded) — Commander Logistics Area, Gujranwala.
45. Maj Gen Muhammad Tahir Saeed, ASC (superseded) — Vice Chief of Logistics Staff (VCLS), GHQ.
46. Maj Gen Masood Hasan, Arty (superseded) — DG Personnel Services and Provost Marshal, GHQ.
47. Maj Gen Qasim Qureshi, Punjab — DG Operations and Plans, JS HQ.
48. Maj Gen Bilal Omer Khan, AC — DG Armoured Corps, GHQ.
49. Maj Gen Imtiaz Ahmed, Engrs — DG National Logistics Corporation (NLC).
50. Maj Gen Muhammad Javed Khan, AMC — DG Medical Services (Navy), Medical Directorate, GHQ.
51. Maj Gen Abdul Malik, AMC — Commandant, Armed Forces Post-Graduate Medical Institute (AFPGMI), Rawalpindi.
52. Maj Gen Jamshed Riaz, EME — DG Electrical and Mechanical Engineering, GHQ. (Colonel Commandant of the Corps of Electrical and Mechanical Engineering)
53. Maj Gen Waqar Ahmed Kingravi, Avn — DG Defence Purchase (DGDP), Ministry of Defence Production. (Colonel Commandant of the Army Aviation Corps)
54. Maj Gen Syed Taqi Naseer Rizvi, Avn — DG Army Aviation, GHQ.
55. Maj Gen Mian Nadeem Ijaz Ahmad, AC[11] — GOC 26th Mechanised Division, Bahawalpur.
56. Maj Gen Zawar Hussain Shah, Ord — DG Ordnance Services, GHQ.
57. Maj Gen Iftikhar Ahmed Choudhry, Arty[3] — DG Welfare and Rehabilitation, GHQ.
58. Maj Gen Syed Mohammad Owais, AD — DG Army Air Defence, GHQ.
59. Maj Gen Mukhtar Ahmed, AK[12] — DG Doctrine and Evaluation, GHQ. (Colonel Commandant of the Azad Kashmir Regiment)
60. Maj Gen Zahid Parvez, AC — DG Budget, GHQ.
61. Maj Gen Khalid Nawaz Khan, Baloch — Commandant, Command and Staff College, Quetta.
62. Maj Gen Sardar Mahmood Ali Khan, Punjab — DG Military Training (DGMT), GHQ.
63. Maj Gen Muhammad Naeem Khan, AMC — Adviser in Medicine/Professor Army Medical College, Rawalpindi.
64. Maj Gen Shahida Badsha, AMC — Adviser in Pediatrics/Professor Army Medical College, Rawalpindi.
65. Maj Gen Najeeb Tariq, EME — DG Inspectorate of Technical Development (ITD), GHQ.
66. Maj Gen Muhammad Ali Khan, ASC — DG Remount, Veterinary and Farms Corps (RVFC), GHQ.
67. Maj Gen Muhammad Farooq, Punjab[10] — DG Defence Export Promotion Organization (DEPO), Ministry of Defence Production.
68. Maj Gen Muhammad Alam Khattak, FF — Deputy Chief of General Staff (DCGS), GHQ.
69. Maj Gen Ahmed Bilal, Sigs[13] — DG (Security) Strategic Planning Division (SPD). (Colonel Commandant of the Corps of Signals)
70. Maj Gen Niaz Muhammad Khan Khattak, AK[14] — Deputy DG ISI (Analysis and Foreign Relations wing).
71. Maj Gen Javed Iqbal, Engrs — DG Defence Complex Islamabad (DCI) Project.
72. Maj Gen Taufiq Rafiq, Engrs — DG Frontier Works Organisation (FWO).
73. Maj Gen Shafqaat Ahmed, Punjab — GOC 10th Infantry Division, Lahore.
74. Maj Gen Tahir Ali, AD — GOC Air Defence, Sargodha.
75. Maj Gen Anwar Saeed Khan, ASC — Managing Director, Pakistan Agricultural Storage and Service Corp. (PASSCO), Ministry of Food and Agriculture.
76. Maj Gen Azhar Rashid, AMC — .
77. Maj Gen Khushnood Javaid Khan, AMC — DG Medical Services (Air Force), Medical Directorate, GHQ.
78. Maj Gen Muhammad Ovais Mustafa, EME — DG Military Vehicles, Research and Development Establishment (MVRDE), Wah Cantt.
79. Maj Gen Raja Muhammad Arif Nazir, Avn — DG Defence Security Guards (DSG), GHQ.
80. Maj Gen Zahid Mubashir Sheikh, Arty — Deputy Quarter-Master General (DQMG), GHQ.
81. Maj Gen Nasir Mahmood, Avn — .
82. Maj Gen Asif Yasin Malik, Punjab — DG Joint Intelligence and Information Operations, JS HQ.
83. Maj Gen Muhammad Haroon Aslam, AK — GOC Special Service Group, Cherat.
84. Maj Gen Waheed Arshad, AC — Vice Chief of General Staff (VCGS), GHQ.
85. Maj Gen Rashad Mahmood, Baloch — Deputy DG ISI, ISI HQ, Islamabad.
86. Maj Gen Muhammad Yaqub Khan, AK — DG Rangers (Punjab), Lahore.
87. Maj Gen Hamid Mahmud, Sigs — DG SCO RWP.
88. Maj Gen Syed Ithar Hussain Shah, Arty[11] — GOC 2nd Artillery Division, Gujranwala.
89. Maj Gen Farooq Ahmed Khan, AMC — Adviser in Pathology/Dean and Professor Army Medical College, Rawalpindi.
90. Maj Gen Chaudhry Ahmad Khan, AMC — Adviser in Surgery/Professor Army Medical College, Rawalpindi.
91. Maj Gen Ulfat Hussain, ASC[15] — DG Supply and Transport, GHQ.
92. Maj Gen Syed Shakeel Hussain, Baloch — Vice Military Secretary (VMS), GHQ.
93. Maj Gen Gul Muhammad, FF[3] — DG Personnel and Administration, GHQ.
94. Maj Gen Liaquat Ali, Arty[16] — DG Rangers (Sindh), Karachi.
95. Maj Gen Ghulam Mustafa Kausar, AK — Deputy DG ISI, ISI HQ, Islamabad.
96. Maj Gen Noor Hussain, Baloch[6] — DG Quartering and Lands, GHQ.
97. Maj Gen Raheel Sharif, FF — Commandant, Pakistan Military Academy, Kakul.
98. Maj Gen Tariq Mahmood, Engrs — Deputy DG ISI, ISI HQ, Islamabad.
99. Maj Gen Tahir Mahmood Malik, Punjab — .
100. Maj Gen Athar Abbas, AC — DG Inter-Services Public Relations (DG ISPR), JS HQ.
101. Maj Gen Wajahat Ali Muftee, Arty — DG Military Lands and Cantonments (ML&C), Ministry of Defence.
102. Maj Gen Waqar Ahmed, AMC —
103. Maj Gen Sefvan Majed Janjua, AMC — Vice Principal Army Medical College, Rawalpindi.
104. Maj Gen Sohail Shafkat, ASC — .
105. Maj Gen Azhar Ali Shah, Punjab[17] — DG Institute of Strategic Studies, Research and Analysis (ISSRA) at NDU Islamabad.
106. Maj Gen Tariq Khan, AC — IG Frontier Corps (IGFC N.W.F.P), Peshawar.
107. Maj Gen Munawar Ahmad Solehria, Engrs[18] — Deputy Engineer-in-Chief, GHQ.
108. Maj Gen Agha Muhammad Umer Farooq, Baloch — Commandant, School of Infantry and Tactics, Quetta.
109. Maj Gen Mohammad Zahirul Islam, Punjab[18][14] — Deputy DG ISI (Internal wing - dealing with Counter-intelligence and political issues inside Pakistan), ISI HQ, Islamabad.
110. Maj Gen Rashad Javeed, Arty — .
111. Maj Gen Salim Nawaz, Baloch — IG Frontier Corps (IGFC Balochistan), Quetta.
112. Maj Gen Mumtaz Ahmad Bajwa, Baloch[18][14] — Deputy DG ISI (External wing - handling relations with Mujahideen groups inside Kashmir and other similar groups), ISI HQ, Islamabad.
113. Maj Gen Muhammad Ashraf Tabbassam, Arty — GOC 35th Infantry Division, Bahawalpur.
114. Maj Gen Muhammad Farooq Iqbal, Ord — Commander Logistics Area, Rawalpindi.
115. Maj Gen Shahid Maqbool, Sigs — Commandant, Military College of Signals, Rawalpindi.
116. Maj Gen Jehangir Anwar Khan, AMC — DG Medical Services (Azad Kashmir), Medical Directorate, GHQ.
117. Maj Gen Jahangir Khan, Infantry — DG Infantry, GHQ.
118. Maj Gen Abdul Aziz Tariq, Infantry — Commander, Logistics Area Karachi.
119. Maj Gen Abdul Qadir Shahid, AD — GOC 4th Air Defence Division, Karachi.
120. Maj Gen Khalid Rabbani, Infantry — GOC 9th Infantry Division, Kohat. (Division operating in Kohat District and its vicinity)
121. Maj Gen Ijaz Awan, Infantry[19] — GOC 37th Infantry Division, Gujranwala. (one of the two divisions operating in Swat District and its vicinity since December 2008)[20]
122. Maj Gen Muhammad Mansha — GOC 25th Mechanised Division, Malir.
123. Maj Gen Abid Pervaiz, AC — .
124. Maj Gen Tahir Habib Siddiqui, AC[3] — GOC 6th Armoured Division, Kharian.
125. Maj Gen Tariq Rashid Khan, Arty — GOC 41st Infantry Division, Quetta.
126. Maj Gen Khadim Hussain, Arty[18] — GOC 23rd Infantry Division, Jhelum.
127. Maj Gen Kaleem Saber Taseer, Arty — Commandant, School of Artillery, Nowshera.
128. Maj Gen Ziauddin Najam, Arty[3] — GOC, Army Strategic Forces Command.
129. Maj Gen Akhtar Iqbal, Arty — GOC 16th Infantry Division, Pano Akil.
130. Maj Gen Sajjad Ghani, Engrs — GOC 19th Infantry Division, Mangla. (one of the two divisions operating in Swat District and its vicinity since April 2009)
131. Maj Gen Ausaf Ali, Engrs — .
132. Maj Gen Mohammad Ahsan Mahmood, Engrs[21] — GOC 15th Infantry Division, Sialkot.
133. Maj Gen Muzammil Hussain, Baloch — Commander Force Command Northern Areas, Gilgit.
134. Maj Gen Tahir Ashraf Khan, Infantry — GOC 33rd Infantry Division, Quetta.
135. Maj Gen Muhammad Asif, Infantry[22] — DG Military Intelligence (DGMI), GHQ.
136. Maj Gen Muhammad Khalid, Infantry — .
137. Maj Gen Ghulam Dastgir, Infantry[6] — DG Human Resource Development (HRD), GHQ.
138. Maj Gen Javed Iqbal, Infantry[23] — DG Military Operations (DGMO), GHQ.
139. Maj Gen Shahid Ahmed Hashmat, Infantry — GOC 18th Infantry Division, Hyderabad.
140. Maj Gen Nasser Khan Janjua, Infantry[19] — GOC 17th Infantry Division, Kharian. (Division operated in Swat District from November 2007 to December 2008, reverted back to peace-time location since)[20]
141. Maj Gen Shahid Hamid Khan, AC — GOC 1st Armoured Division, Multan.
142. Maj Gen Asif Nawaz Janjua, AC — .
143. Maj Gen Tariq Nadeem Gilani, Arty[17] — Commandant, Armed Forces War College (AFWC) at NDU Islamabad.
144. Maj Gen Mohammad Ijaz Chaudhry, Arty[18] — GOC 14th Infantry Division, Okara. (Division operating in the southern NWFP including the Waziristan region)
145. Maj Gen Javaid Iqbal Nasar, Arty — .
146. Maj Gen Zahir Shah, Engrs[24] — Commandant, Military College of Engineering, Risalpur.
147. Maj Gen Junaid Rehmat, Engrs — DG Works and Chief Engineer (W&CE), GHQ.
148. Maj Gen Mohammad Azeem Asif, Engrs[24] — DG Engineers, GHQ.
149. Maj Gen Mohammad Rafiq Sabir, Engrs[18] — DG Housing, GHQ.
150. Maj Gen Muhammad Khalid Rao, Sigs[18] — DG(technical) ISI GHQ Rawalpindi.
151. Maj Gen Mohammad Saeed Aleem, Infantry — GOC 8th Infantry Division, Sialkot.
152. Maj Gen Wasim Sadiq, Infantry — .
153. Maj Gen Naweed Zaman, Infantry — GOC 7th Infantry Division, Peshawar. (Division operating in Peshawar region and its vicinity)
154. Maj Gen Muhammad Nawaz, Infantry[18] — GOC 40th Infantry Division, Okara.
155. Maj Gen Raza Muhammad, Infantry — GOC 11th Infantry Division, Lahore.
156. Maj Gen Khawar Hanif, Infantry — .
157. Maj Gen Maqsood Ahmad, Infantry[18] — GOC 12th Infantry Division, Murree. (deployed near LoC)
158. Maj Gen Tanveer Ullah Khan, Avn[18] — GOC Army Aviation Command, Rawalpindi.
159. Maj Gen Niaz Kausar Sheikh, ASC[24] — DG Pay, Pension and Accounts, GHQ.
160. Maj Gen Mohammad Shahid, EME[18] — Commandant, College of EME, Rawalpindi.
161. Maj Gen Obaid Bin Zakria, EME — DG C4I, GHQ.
162. Maj Gen Zia Ullah Khan, AMC — Commandant, Combined Military Hospital (CMH), Rawalpindi.
163. Maj Gen Azhar Mahmud, AMC[25] — Commandant/Executive Director, Armed Forces Institute of Cardiology (AFIC)/National Institute of Heart Diseases (NIHD), Rawalpindi.
164. Maj Gen Muhammad Hamid Akram, AMC — Adviser in Radiology/Professor Army Medical College, Rawalpindi.
165. Maj Gen Asif Ali Khan, AMC — Head of Cardiac Surgery, AFIC/NIHD Rawalpindi.
166. Maj Gen Suhaib Ahmad, AMC — Commandant, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP), Rawalpindi.
167. Maj Gen Syed Wajid Hussain, AC — .
168. Maj Gen Changez Dil Khan, AC — .
169. Maj Gen Isfandyar Ali Pataudi, AC — .
170. Maj Gen Zubair Mahmood Hayat, Arty — .PS(C)
171. Maj Gen Noel Israel Khokhar, Arty — .
172. Maj Gen Shaukat Iqbal, Arty — .
173. Maj Gen Mazhar Jamil, Arty — .
174. Maj Gen Tahir Mahmood, AD — .
175. Maj Gen Zamir Ul Hassan Shah, AD — .
176. Maj Gen Najib Ullah Khan, Engrs — .
177. Maj Gen Khalid Asghar, Engrs — .
178. Maj Gen Waqar Ahmed, Sigs , Signal Officer In Chief(SO-in-C) now named as DG SIGS,GHQ RWP
179. Maj Gen Farrukh Bashir, Infantry — .
180. Maj Gen Ashfaq Nadim Ahmed, Infantry — .
181. Maj Gen Javed Iqbal Ramday, Infantry — .
182. Maj Gen Qamar Javed Bajwa, Infantry — .
183. Maj Gen M Saad Khattak, Infantry — .
184. Maj Gen Sajjad Ali Khan, Infantry — .
185. Maj Gen Khalid Mahmood, Infantry — .
186. Maj Gen Mohammad Tahir, Avn — .
187. Maj Gen Rehan Bashir, EME — .
188. Maj Gen Waqar Ahmed Khan, AMC — .
189. Maj Gen Zafarul Islam, AMC — .
190. Maj Gen Waqas Ahmed, AMC — .

 

[qsaark]

i though it was an argument, only if you were able to counter it yourself.

Anywaz, here's the list of our Commanders. Please take some pain and check, how many Supporting Arm Senior Officers are Commanding Offensive or operational/fighting outfits, except a one or may be two.

Is it a law that a COAS can not come from a supporting arm? If yes, give me the reference. I am not asking about 'tradition', I am asking about the 'Law'. In the constitution of Pakistan, is there any clause that guides the PM/President on the appointment procedure of the COAS? Or restrict them who should be appointed and who should not be? If there is any such clause, give me the reference.

I am asking this question because even, if for a while, I consider that Army deposed NS because he (NS) had appointed a non-combat guy as the COAS. Maybe I could understand that Army reacted because a ‘Law’ was broken, but Army sent a democratically elected PM home just because he broke a ‘tradition’. I do not know what oath Army takes, but whatever it may be, is it about protecting the constitution of Pakistan or about protecting the colonial traditions that Army still value so much?

 

[Xeric]

Is it a law that a COAS can not come from a supporting arm? If yes, give me the reference. I am not asking about 'tradition', I am asking about the 'Law'. In the constitution of Pakistan, is there any clause that guides the PM/President on the appointment procedure of the COAS? Or restrict them who should be appointed and who should not be? If there is any such clause, give me the reference.

Qsaark you sometime sound naive than usual. PM having some authority would mean that he can do what ever he wishes to, that's one.

There is no law as you have asked, two.

But before i proceed i must clear the i have no problem with an Engrs Officer becoming a COAS. This is just another chink in the Mush Vs Nawaz duel!
But, here are some reasons as why people talk about an Engrs Officer cant be a COAS (excluding me):

An officer from Supply would not have seen the battle front in any case. the closest he would been to the actually fight would from his Supply Depot, like, miles and miles away from the front line.

An Ordnance Officers would have the same kind of experiences.

Same might not exactly hold guud for an Engineers Officer as Engineers Corps as A SECONDARY ROLE as a fighting Arm. The emphasis is on SECONDARY ROLE, ok.

Now the Army is as versatile as it can be!! Now i mean it.

15-20 separate departments, each ver very different and unique from each other. It's like a heart surgeon is different than a plastic surgeon. Now as the Army is inherently multi-facet it needs dedicated staff and men. It is nearly impossible for a dude from one of the arms to get adjusted in a different arm easily. Moreover, we also have dedicated trades within each arms, every army does. infantry also have operators, technicians, map markers, etc etc. They are inducted as such from the very start when they are enrolled in the military and stay as such. It would be a stupidity if i ask an telephone/wireless operator to do the job of a technician. furthermore, a technician from infantry might again not be fit to work with artillery or armored corps as they all have very very different equipment. This is the lower level. Now let's come to the Officers.

The kind os 'job' the military is doing in Siachen is totally different from what is hapening in Swat. Again the stuff in Swat is different then what happened in Balochistan. Plains of Punjab are different then deserts, so on and so forth. Now as Army is inhabited by humans and not robots, everyone cannopt be an expert on everything. It would be seldom possible that a Brigdier is given a command of a brigade in Kashmir if he has never served in Kashmir in his past service. Similarliy it would be seldom posible that an officer who has never been expertised in desert warfare would be asked to command something in the desert formations. The reason is that army teaches you the basics of everything, snow, land, desert, jungle etc etc, but it is your emplacement/postings in your subsequent service which would make you an expert on any one of the types of warfare or employment. You tell me, if you have to choose one guy to paint your house and you have two choices. 1) a guy who is qualified in painting but on papers, 2) a guy who is a qualified painter on papers but also has some experience in painting as he just painted your neighbors house a week back, and you know he did a very guud job. How would you pick, the second one i suppose, instead of risking your money and house you would rather go with the second option. Now there is a difference in getting a house painted and commanding an Army!! A classic example that i can give you is of Lieutenant General Nadeem Ahmad the head of Special Support Group for Internally Displaced Persons (IDPs) at Federal Government level. The only reason he was appointed for this job was his past experience of handling the Earthquake thing in '05; (then Maj-Gen Nadeem Ahmad was appointed Chief Military Coordinator for the Military Wing of the Federal Relief Commission (FRC).). It was his this experience that he was again entrusted with the sane kinda job.

Now you tell me whom would you have pick?

Now it also look akwards that, the Army only relies past experiences to appoint people to get the jobs done, may be yes and there is reason for it. Army cannot train every officer in every field, no army can, In the West you even have a completely separate Staff Officer Corps from to ease out the work, i can also quote you more but... i am trying to be quite for the EYES ONLY reason! i am not going to have a dude who have topped in is snow warfare course but have never served at siachen as my staff officer if iam a commander in siachen, instead i would prefer a dude who has spent like 6 years (3 tenures) in siachen on ground.

So, if a senior officer has no or less experience as regards to the 'actual' stuff that our army does (it includes our doctrine and straggle level) by virtue of his employment in the past, it's nobody's fault, that;s how it works-a Supply officer would never be employed at a Post or OP, similarly an infantry dude would never know how deep the roots of supply and ordnance go (though he would be having all the basic knowledge), as he have never served in that environment. Gen Butt did has the experience like any other Senior Officer from the fighting arms as he did command a corps, BUt NOt all Corps Commanders become the COAS!!

Now please let me watch my movie!!

 

[qsaark]

PM having some authority…in which book its written? What determines the authority of the PM? CONSTITUTION. Who determines the authority of the PM? PARLIAMENT. If it was the case that you have tried to explain to me in your long message, than Iskander, or Ayub, or Yahya, or Zia, or Musharraf would have made it the part of the constitution. Why they did not do that when they could have?

My question was simple, whether PM appointed General Butt as COAS illegally, or unconstitutionally? And the answer is, no he did not do anything wrong, neither he went against the constitution, nor he broke a law period. So if he did not break the law than why did the Army deposed him and his democratically elected government? I am trying to determine who went against the constitutional guidelines? PM or Army? Who broke the law? PM or Army?

And some complaint that people call Pakistan is for Army. Of course it is for Army, because here constitution and law are not supreme, here Army is supreme. A deposed Army chief can retain his position but a democratically elected PM can not.

Now go and watch movie.

 

[blain2]

Taimi Khan, just to let you know the present GOC in Swat Maj Gen Sajjad Ghani is also from Engineers.I am pretty sure he is doing a good job up there.

We might not be a fan of Gen Butt and how he was chosen but please stop using words like "Damn Engineers",there are others who are doing just fine. Even Gen Butt was once Corp Commander Lahore.

Regards

Making Corps commander is fine and being an engineer is great. After all Gen Butt was Commander XXX Corps. However there is a historical bias towards men from fighting arms leading the Army. While it was fine on the part of NS to make his man the chief, there are certain considerations to be kept in mind when it comes to picking the Army chief.