The Ground-zero mosque, continued

[TorontoNoctis]

Emotions are not based on facts but feelings.

Gambit has made a good point about Americans being offended because it is a "conquest." If you ask Osama Bin Laden or any other jihadist, he will say that Cordoba House was a victory for their cause. This is offensive to some Americans. It does not matter if the average Muslim doesn't think so. The proof is that some Muslims oppose the mosque. And no, it is not just Indian Muslims who "bow down" or "keel over" or "Westernized" Muslims. Educated Muslims who are leaders of think tanks and academia are saying this is a bad idea.

However I still think America at large and even most New Yorkers should have stayed out of the issue. Obama should have simply ignored it as a local issue. I understand that most Americans view 9/11 as a Pearl Harbor. But Pearl Harbor is or should be in an entirely different category -- it was an act of war on military forces by a state. 9/11 in contrast was terrorism by criminals, a crime, not a declaration of war. Just as I find it ridiculous and a travesty that Midwestern and Central America had such a huge say in terrorism that they elected Bush to a second term due to his perceived strength on terrorism while the states on the coast most likely to be attacked by terrorists trusted Kerry and were ignored, so too do I find it a travesty that America at large thinks it has a legitimate opinion about what should or shouldn't be built. And no, I do not buy the polls which say the majority of New Yorkers oppose it. First, the question and wording is particularly stupid -- many New Yorkers might change their mind if they knew the place would be a few blocks away and not exactly at ground zero. Second, the same polls say Lower Manhattanites, the ones who have to work and shop near there, and are most likely to be paying the most attention to the location and specifics, support it.

Out of state money and influence is the scourge of America. Sarah Palin and those kinds should shut their face, and frankly so should have Obama.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Is it true that some US muslims with ties to Al-Muhajiroun stepped on and ripped apart an American flag on downtown NYC and said: '...our loyalty does not belong to this flag, our loyalty belongs to Allah ... ."

They rested your case for you.

Tisk, Tisk, Tisk... So once again it boils down to judging the masses because of the actions of some?

Do they speak for me?

I speak for myself thank you very much... Those soldiers who humiliated Arab prisoners... Do they speak for you?

Anyway:

 

[gambit]

However I still think America at large and even most New Yorkers should have stayed out of the issue

But then again, if it is obligatory for an Asian muslim to identify with a Palestinian muslim, the rest of America is wrong to identify with our own countrymen in NYC? News to me.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

But then again, if it is obligatory for an Asian muslim to identify with a Palestinian muslim, the rest of America is wrong to identify with our own countrymen in NYC? News to me.

So American Muslims, what are they? Ain't they your "countrymen/women" too?

 

[gambit]

So American Muslims, what are they? Ain't they your "countrymen/women" too?

Then it is pretty much an internal matter is it? Funny that you agreed with the other guy who called for the rest of America to butt out but identify yourself with muslims in America and butt in into our affairs.

 

[TorontoNoctis]

But then again, if it is obligatory for an Asian muslim to identify with a Palestinian muslim, the rest of America is wrong to identify with our own countrymen in NYC? News to me.

Identification implies sympathy for a cause, which means they would have to support some sort of grassroots Lower Manhattan movement to remove Cordoba.

This is just nationalism mixed in with religion and out-of-state politicians and influences trying to score cheap points. I'm reminded of Harry Lennix's character from Commander in Chief saying "The President of the United States does not deal with such... minutiae." If it really was a human rights violation to deny construction of Cordoba, it should have been solved by the courts. If it wasn't then the President doesn't have to get involved with what amounts to a city zoning bylaw. This line of reasoning also applies to opponents.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

You really do not 'get it', do you? Or are you that much of a robot? The reason why we have laws is to control emotions. But just because the laws controls our actions, laws do not negate our emotions. So for you to tell me that such a museum in India is 'ok' with you is to be intellectually dishonest. It would bother you to some degree. It would bother other Indians to lesser or greater degree. It would motivate some Indians to violate the laws and do something unpleasant.

The point here is not so much if the intention of this mosque 'insult' Americans, particularly New Yorkers, but that the majority of Americans are somewhat offended by a structure with a symbol from a religion that motivated an attack on US.

Mideast passions quiet over NY mosque showdown - Yahoo! News

So even many muslims in the ME are nervous about this mosque. If muslims sentiments are oooohhhh-sooooo important to muslims whenever they are offended for any reason, even to the point of burning American flags and calling our 'death', why is American sentiments any less important when the sentiments are on American soil?

Yes world trade center was an american pride and symbol..many celebrated it's collapse..but the greatest symbol is its secularism. When that is lost everything is lost.
emotions are lead by wrong perception..it must be corrected.

i can guarantee you that most of us indians are not paranoid about british memorials infact we protect them..nobody refuses to drive through a british built bridge or enter a british museum,library or building.we welcome britishers in our home we treat them well.. we dont forget but we forgive.
and again i am sure if the terrorist was christian nobody would have a problem ?
EMOTIONS WILL CALM DOWN WITH TIME BUT IF YOU MAKE A WRONG DECISION OUT OF EMOTION REMEMBER THAT THE WORLD WILL JUDGE YOU AS A HYPOCRITE. Tomorrow you will loose your voice in such matters..

 

[GentlemanObserver]

Then it is pretty much an internal matter is it? Funny that you agreed with the other guy who called for the rest of America to butt out but identify yourself with muslims in America and butt in into our affairs.

Funny that you agreed with the other guy who called for the rest of America to butt out but identify yourself with muslims in America

Generalisation much?

and butt in into our affairs.

Excuse me?

This is a forum for discussion after all, and is there a rule specifying that you have to be of a certain nationality to comment on certain threads? If so that why do you "butt-in" to share your valuable experience on Pakistani affairs?

I must say i am rather confused by this statement.

 

[gambit]

Yes world trade center was an american pride and symbol..many celebrated it's collapse..but the specter symbol is its secularism. When that is lost everything is lost.
emotions are lead by wrong perception..it must be corrected.

i can guarantee you that most of us indians are not paranoid about british memorials infact we protect them..nobody refuses to drive through a british built bridge or enter a british museum,library or building.we welcome britishers in our home we treat them well.. we dont forget but we forgive.
and again i am sure if the terrorist was christian nobody would have a problem ?
EMOTIONS WILL CALM DOWN WITH TIME BUT IF YOU MAKE A WRONG DECISION OUT OF EMOTION REMEMBER THAT THE WORLD WILL JUDGE YOU AS A HYPOCRITE. Tomorrow you will loose your voice in such matters..

Yup...That mean Bush should have butt out since he was out of New York state when the towers collapsed. Twenty seven hundred US citizens murdered in one day in spectacular fashion that drew dances and rejoice in other parts of the world and it is cheap nationalism to grieve and feels anger with the victims.

 

[gambit]

Generalisation much?

No more than muslims about America.

I must say i am rather confused by this statement.

I understand.

 

[TorontoNoctis]

Yup...That mean Bush should have butt out since he was out of New York state when the towers collapsed. Twenty seven hundred US citizens murdered in one day in spectacular fashion that drew dances and rejoice in other parts of the world and it is cheap nationalism to grieve and feels anger with the victims.

I do not remember dances and rejoicing in mass numbers immediately after 9/11. The worst I remember was from Israelis who said that "maybe now they will understand" attempting to score cheap political points.

I do however remember candle light vigils by Iranians, arch enemies of the US, and Muslim condemnation of the attacks from every sector. Think tanks calling it a "strategic error" for Osama to attack the US that way, and even the most conservative mullahs staying quiet. Only Bin Laden dared open his mouth.

This isn't 2001, and building a mosque is not the same as sympathy for terrorism victims.

 

[gambit]

I do not remember dances and rejoicing in mass numbers immediately after 9/11. The worst I remember was from Israelis who said that "maybe now they will understand" attempting to score cheap political points.

I do however remember candle light vigils by Iranians, arch enemies of the US, and Muslim condemnation of the attacks from every sector. Think tanks calling it a "strategic error" for Osama to attack the US that way, and even the most conservative mullahs staying quiet. Only Bin Laden dared open his mouth.

This isn't 2001, and building a mosque is not the same as sympathy for terrorism victims.

If Iranians holding candle vigils for the victims is supposed to matter, then perhaps the supporters of this triumphalist structure should take a cue from the silence and some opposition of this mosque from the ME...

Mideast passions quiet over NY mosque showdown - Yahoo! News

"The mosque is not an issue for Muslims and they don't care about it being built," wrote Saudi columnist Abdel Rahman Rashed in the pan-Arab Asharq al-Awsat newspaper.

"Some Muslims would even consider building a mosque there would be a permanent reminder of the acts of terrorists, who carried out their crime in the name of Islam," he added.

...And move it elsewhere, which is what Americans asks anyway.

 

[EjazR]

Does not need to be a 'conquest'. The collapse of the World Trade Center towers was a battle victory. This black eye to the world's standing super power gave plenty of muslims the world over reason to dance in the streets. One take trophies whenever and wherever one could. For a society that is constrained by its own laws -- US -- this triumphalist structure will stand for a long time for the world's muslims to see.

Battle victory to who? To the 100 muslims who died in the WTC attacks? To the thousands of muslims who continue to die in attacksby Al Qaeda and consist of 90% of its victims?

And have you heard about the thousands of muslims that were saddned by the attacks? Did you hear about the candle light vigils for the victims of the attacks in places like Palestine and Iran ??!! You didn;t, you want see that on Faux news my friend.

And what do you have to say about the Torture memos and Abu Gharaib controversy in Iraq? Should we now blame all Americans and tarnish them all with the same brush as psychos who enjoy torturing people?

Americans have put up for decades of what you are whining about recently.

I am surprised that being from a military background as you claim to be. You don't know therole played by muslim countries in making US the sole superpower. Was it not the Saudi Money that bank rolled the US as well as its war against Communism. Did not Reagan the most famous Republican presidents dedicate space shuttle launches to the mujahideen. For decades muslims have been supporting the US in its fight against Communism! Hell the German NATO command sent a piece of the Berlin War after it fel to ex-ISI chief Hamid Gul saying that they were the ones who put the first chink in the wall.

Americans should be atleast listen to what their own leaders Clinton and Gates say. And btw, you will never hear a muslim saying Christians or Jews are the devil religion or disrespect the Bible or Torah as we believe they are holy books as well.

Is it true that some US muslims with ties to Al-Muhajiroun stepped on and ripped apart an American flag on downtown NYC and said: '...our loyalty does not belong to this flag, our loyalty belongs to Allah ... ."

Is it also not true that hundreds of American muslims have been helping the US fight its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and serving to defend their country under theAmerican flag? What about their loyalty?



I know that you make some intelligent posts in the air force forums so Im still trying to understand if you just have misunderstandings or have just become part of the Sarah Palin crowd (no offence intended).

For the record I did say that there should be a freeze on the construction, but the reasons that you have given for the cultural centre to not be built strikes me full of "Palinism".

P.S.: You still haven't answered on wether you believe muslims worship a monkey God?
P.P.S.: The mosque in Cordoba currently is a Church, so to be accurate, Cordoba would probably more accurately refer to a "Christian conquest of Islam".

 

[Awesome]

How would you like it if I build a museum commemorating the conquest and rule of India by the British? If you persists on focusing on the legal aspect of this then there is no hope for you.

Again you're talking about something that's national to India and not religious. If someone made a museum commemorating the slavery of black people in America they would not be allowed either.

You can't be selectively secular. Theocracy today while dealing with this issue, secular for everything else.

 

[Tuahaa]

If Iranians holding candle vigils for the victims is supposed to matter, then perhaps the supporters of this triumphalist structure should take a cue from the silence and some opposition of this mosque from the ME...

Mideast passions quiet over NY mosque showdown - Yahoo! News

Is America in a war against Islam or a war against terror? If it really is the latter, I fear they are failing as their media has caused so much paranoia about Islam, (i.e. trying so hard to fade the gap between Islam and terrorism).

P.S. ME and Arabs have pro american governments... saying nobody cares is quite inaccurate.

...And move it elsewhere, which is what Americans asks anyway.

Last I saw the news, they were carrying banners saying "No Mosque, Nowhere"