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Operation "Gibraltar" and "Grand Slam"

I understand, you need some feel-good factor to pat your own back. I mean it will be difficult for a country, which is a garrison state to have no military achievements under it's belt. That's just, well demoralizing.

So, what do you do ? You cherry pick particular events! How convenient !!

It's very simple. I will compare the results between start-point and end point. This is the outcome :

1. Pakistan started with the objective of capturing Kashmir - Failure
2. India started with the objective of defence - success
3. India ended up capturing 3 times more land than that of Pakistan and yet being the bigger brother, had forgiven you, and gave your land back.
That's the end result - no cherry picking there!!


History has no place for speculation.
In defence, you have to give up some land. The BRB canal was made for a purpose, that was to defend Lahore city, if capturing a few villages East of BRB, when defence lines of our forces were along BRB means some great victory by your standards then by all means celebrate. Taking more land doesn't mean anything in peace talks when that land is of low strategic significance.
 
i understand your Bharaaat Raaakshak mindset however, this is not how the history unfolded. "big brother forgiving" nonsense as well as objective of defense of india goes back on your own claims of bargaining chips.

i understand it is humiliting for a nation 6 times our size to fight 16 days of all out war and have nothing to show for it.no war trophies no teas in Lahore gymkhana.

its ok 65 is brushed aside in indian history and 71 is celebrated rightly so. the whole grand slam was copied improved and used effectively by india in bangladesh,

The message has been delivered. I know it's difficult for you, but suck it up. Kashmir is still with India. :)

It's not India that started the war for Lahore, it's Pakistan that started the war for Kashmir, thinking locals would rise to help their Pakistani brothers.

In defence, you have to give up some land. The BRB canal was made for a purpose, that was to defend Lahore city, if capturing a few villages East of BRB, when defence lines of our forces were along BRB means some great victory by your standards then by all means celebrate. Taking more land doesn't mean anything in peace talks when that land is of low strategic significance.

@Psychic I want you to go through the exact history of what happened during that time. Nationalism is one thing, and I understand. But that should not give way to jingoism at any stage. I will not tell that to anybody and everybody.
I have a feeling that you have certain degree of rationality.
The GHQ in Rawalpindi, did not have any idea that India will open up a second front in the flat lands, where the tanks can hit the black top. At times it seems so childish, arguing about these things with people who don't know head or tail about the chain of events.

To me, it does not really matter who won or who lost some 50 years back when the World was entirely a different place, South Asia in particular.

Just for your information, I'm quoting Babar Ayaz, an eminent Pakistani author and veteran journalist :

Even 48 years after 1965 war, children in schools across Pakistan are taught that the unreliable India attacked Pakistan in the middle of the night on 6 September 1965. Though military historians agree that Pakistan did not win the war, which in the first place they did not anticipate, the entire propaganda machinery misinformed the people that war had been won and how the Hindu army cannot fight the Muslim army. Pakistan had to lobby hard with the international community to intervene for a ceasefire. Though the Pakistani soldiers and officers fought valiantly, so did the other side. India did not open the East Pakistan front in a big way; they just bombed Dacca and Chittagong a couple of times. Either they wanted to concentrate on West Pakistan, or they just wanted to teach a lesson that no covert war would be tolerated. Shaukat Riza underlined: ‘As early as 1950 Indian Prime Minister Nehru had warned Pakistan that an attack on Kashmir would mean a general war, and if a war is imposed on India it would be fought, as far as possible, on Pakistan soil.’ 6 India had moved its forces towards Jammu and Kashmir in 1951, when there was a lot of irresponsible talk about ‘jihad’ against India as mentioned by Nehru, in his letter written to Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan. Though Riza has discussed the perspective of the 1965 war and accepted the involvement of Mujahideen, he has not mentioned ‘Operation Gibraltar’. Instead, he has talked about ‘Operation Grand Slam’, which he says ‘was a gamble in which the other side did not play according to our rules. To Indian troops in Chhamb area the trajectories of shell landing on their position was immaterial. In attacking across the ceasefire line we convinced ourselves that the other side would limit the fighting to Kashmir.’
Riza puts the blame of this war harshly on the then foreign minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, for convincing Ayub that the war would remain restricted to Kashmir. And mildly blames Ayub for his naiveté to believe in the advisers, who failed to envision the Indian reaction. More criticism of Bhutto’s hawkish policies as foreign minister, which resulted in the 1965 war, can be found in other recorded history of this futile Pakistani adventure. He (Bhutto) also tried to woo the US-led Central Treaty Organization (CENTO) countries to help Pakistan, although it was clear that the only purpose of this alliance was to counter communism in this region. America had already warned Pakistan on using its equipment in the Rann of Kutch battle a year earlier.
Quoting Air Marshal Asghar Khan, Pakistan’s retired chief of air staff, former foreign minister, Abdul Sattar has recorded: ‘The operation name Gibraltar, prepared by Major General Akhtar Hussain Malik, was approved. Calling for incursions by Kashmiri volunteers into India-held Kashmir, it was based on three assumptions – people of Kashmir would rise to support guerillas, a large-scale Indian offensive against Azad Kashmir was unlikely, and the possibility of attack across international border could be ruled out – all of which turned out to be wrong.’ 7 Sattar has also disclosed that ‘neither the air force nor the navy was informed about Operation Gibraltar and the fact that the army did not prepare for the contingency of war is further evidence of his [Ayub] anti-war intentions.’ 8 Finally, the then Soviet Union prime minister, Alexei Kosygin, who had good influence on the Indian government, brokered the Tashkent Agreement. Ayub Khan signed it but his Foreign Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who had assured him of Chinese help before starting the Operation Gibraltar, opposed this peace treaty. Sensing that he might be sacked for the 1965 debacle, Bhutto left Ayub and cashed on the anti-Indian sentiment of the people in Punjab. The Punjabis were also under the spell of the propaganda that the war was started by India, as they knew nothing about Pakistan’s covert operation. Although now the consensus among various writers on this subject is that there was a stalemate at the end of this seventeen-day war, Pakistanis are still fooled that they were winning the war when Ayub agreed to the ceasefire. Islamic fervour and Pakistani nationalism was exploited to the hilt during and after this war.
 
lastly was it not your aim to capture lahore or atleast sialkot?

What is with your way of thinking?
The whole goal of PA in the 65 war was to capture Kashmir and when your army finally failed and ended up losing more territory. So, eventually to save face and console the gullible public they brought up a story and made it look like India was the aggressor and failed to capture Lahore.
It was never our plan to take Lahore but eventually ended up that way, while your plan was to take Kashmir but never could.

As for why IA didn't take Lahore, we almost did. By that time the war was already heading for a stalemate with ammunitions running low on both sides. We were capturing outer regions of sialkot and lahore, whereas the PA was getting the desert regions as consolation.

As for Tashkent it was our political leadership's mis-ability nothing Pakistan did to engage it.
 
The message has been delivered. I know it's difficult for you, but suck it up. Kashmir is still with India. :)

It's not India that started the war for Lahore, it's Pakistan that started the war for Kashmir, thinking locals would rise to help their Pakistani brothers.



@Psychic I want you to go through the exact history of what happened during that time. Nationalism is one thing, and I understand. But that should not give way to jingoism at any stage. I will not tell that to anybody and everybody.
I have a feeling that you have certain degree of rationality.
The GHQ in Rawalpindi, did not have any idea that India will open up a second front in the flat lands, where the tanks can hit the black top. At times it seems so childish, arguing about these things with people who don't know head or tail about the chain of events.

To me, it does not really matter who won or who lost some 50 years back when the World was entirely a different place, South Asia in particular.

Just for your information, I'm quoting Babar Ayaz, an eminent Pakistani author and veteran journalist :

Even 48 years after 1965 war, children in schools across Pakistan are taught that the unreliable India attacked Pakistan in the middle of the night on 6 September 1965. Though military historians agree that Pakistan did not win the war, which in the first place they did not anticipate, the entire propaganda machinery misinformed the people that war had been won and how the Hindu army cannot fight the Muslim army. Pakistan had to lobby hard with the international community to intervene for a ceasefire. Though the Pakistani soldiers and officers fought valiantly, so did the other side. India did not open the East Pakistan front in a big way; they just bombed Dacca and Chittagong a couple of times. Either they wanted to concentrate on West Pakistan, or they just wanted to teach a lesson that no covert war would be tolerated. Shaukat Riza underlined: ‘As early as 1950 Indian Prime Minister Nehru had warned Pakistan that an attack on Kashmir would mean a general war, and if a war is imposed on India it would be fought, as far as possible, on Pakistan soil.’ 6 India had moved its forces towards Jammu and Kashmir in 1951, when there was a lot of irresponsible talk about ‘jihad’ against India as mentioned by Nehru, in his letter written to Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan. Though Riza has discussed the perspective of the 1965 war and accepted the involvement of Mujahideen, he has not mentioned ‘Operation Gibraltar’. Instead, he has talked about ‘Operation Grand Slam’, which he says ‘was a gamble in which the other side did not play according to our rules. To Indian troops in Chhamb area the trajectories of shell landing on their position was immaterial. In attacking across the ceasefire line we convinced ourselves that the other side would limit the fighting to Kashmir.’
Riza puts the blame of this war harshly on the then foreign minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, for convincing Ayub that the war would remain restricted to Kashmir. And mildly blames Ayub for his naiveté to believe in the advisers, who failed to envision the Indian reaction. More criticism of Bhutto’s hawkish policies as foreign minister, which resulted in the 1965 war, can be found in other recorded history of this futile Pakistani adventure. He (Bhutto) also tried to woo the US-led Central Treaty Organization (CENTO) countries to help Pakistan, although it was clear that the only purpose of this alliance was to counter communism in this region. America had already warned Pakistan on using its equipment in the Rann of Kutch battle a year earlier.
Quoting Air Marshal Asghar Khan, Pakistan’s retired chief of air staff, former foreign minister, Abdul Sattar has recorded: ‘The operation name Gibraltar, prepared by Major General Akhtar Hussain Malik, was approved. Calling for incursions by Kashmiri volunteers into India-held Kashmir, it was based on three assumptions – people of Kashmir would rise to support guerillas, a large-scale Indian offensive against Azad Kashmir was unlikely, and the possibility of attack across international border could be ruled out – all of which turned out to be wrong.’ 7 Sattar has also disclosed that ‘neither the air force nor the navy was informed about Operation Gibraltar and the fact that the army did not prepare for the contingency of war is further evidence of his [Ayub] anti-war intentions.’ 8 Finally, the then Soviet Union prime minister, Alexei Kosygin, who had good influence on the Indian government, brokered the Tashkent Agreement. Ayub Khan signed it but his Foreign Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, who had assured him of Chinese help before starting the Operation Gibraltar, opposed this peace treaty. Sensing that he might be sacked for the 1965 debacle, Bhutto left Ayub and cashed on the anti-Indian sentiment of the people in Punjab. The Punjabis were also under the spell of the propaganda that the war was started by India, as they knew nothing about Pakistan’s covert operation. Although now the consensus among various writers on this subject is that there was a stalemate at the end of this seventeen-day war, Pakistanis are still fooled that they were winning the war when Ayub agreed to the ceasefire. Islamic fervour and Pakistani nationalism was exploited to the hilt during and after this war.
I know about all this and there is nothing much to disagree but still it was not a Stalingrad sort of a defeat which for us which many try to prove. Every one even in Pakistan knows that apart from few rangers companies and a regular company, there was no one else deployed to defend Lahore. Gibralter was itself a blunder doomed to fail similarly, Indian high command and Airforce command also made equally dumb mistakes during the war. And Indians and Pakistanis both are fooled that they won.
Bhutto left Ayub and cashed on the anti-Indian sentiment of the people in Punjab
IDK why people always blame Punjab for everything. Bhutto was a Sindhi, Ayub/Musa was from frontier PPP always wins from Sindh and won from West Pakistan in 70 elections.
 
I know about all this and there is nothing much to disagree but still it was not a Stalingrad sort of a defeat which for us which many try to prove. Every one even in Pakistan knows that apart from few rangers companies and a regular company, there was no one else deployed to defend Lahore. Gibralter was itself a blunder doomed to fail similarly, Indian high command and Airforce command also made equally dumb mistakes during the war. And Indians and Pakistanis both are fooled that they won.

IDK why people always blame Punjab for everything. Bhutto was a Sindhi, Ayub/Musa was from frontier PPP always wins from Sindh and won from West Pakistan in 70 elections.

Only a fool who does not know a thing about Stalingrad will compare this 1965 war with that.
This 1965 war, its just us, two poor nations making mockery of ourselves in front of the whole World. The Americans and the British were laughing at us, making tea-time jokes.
I personally never liked Gandhi much, but I always respect his intelligence and foresight. He knew things like this will happen. Do you know what did he suggest ? Joint-army with unified command protecting the borders of both the countries, but two different nations, as Jinnah wished it to be. Half of our problems would have been solved by that!

If time permits, I will give you some interesting literature to read.
And Punjab has it's fair share. Bhutto, for example could never had been successful if he had not appeased certain elites in Punjab. It calls for a deeper discussion, which may not be possible in this forum, in the senior section, may be..
 
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May be it is his personal enmity for Zia. Many other armour corps officers who served under Zia did not think of him like that. Zia was however a junior General promoted by Bhutto to COAS.

Gen Tajammul himself was such a "brilliant " commander who left his soldiers leaderless in Bogra and departed for an unknown destination after recieving orders of surrender.

Both in question, your cream of the crop...
 
Both in question, your cream of the crop...
The problem with that cream is that usually it is yoghurt masquerading as cream. This has to do with blatant nepotism that takes over during the process from one star to two star in the Pakistani military.
 
The problem with that cream is that usually it is yoghurt masquerading as cream. This has to do with blatant nepotism that takes over during the process from one star to two star in the Pakistani military.

Is it as early as that ? My impression was that it kicked in at selection of Corps Commanders level. After all, that is where the real Oligarchy gets created.
 
Is it as early as that ? My impression was that it kicked in at selection of Corps Commanders level. After all, that is where the real Oligarchy gets created.
Nope, as early as that. Again, there is meritorious selection in many cases..or in some cases(depending upon the character of the Chief. Mush for e.g. was very buddy loving and let idiots climb up the ladder( by some miracle some of his buddies were actually good officers so a collective prayer to the lord was said by many officers in the PA). Gen K wasnt that bad and did let merit take decision in certain cases... but there were key posts where he simply did not even bother looking at the grades report and just said "Make it so".

But many a times there selections of Brig to Gen simply because they may be "pack" buddies.
That happens on other levels as well. Certain ordinary captains keep going up the ladder because they know how much gin goes with how much tonic for a particular Gen due to their servicing as a ADC to him. Again, serving as ADC is in itself honourable but there have been cases where these same gentlemen made fairly mediocre officers out of that job and still kept up the ladder.

Its a systemic disease, and then out of this disease you have people like Musharraf and his cabal who think themselves the next Clausewitz or Rommel(and actually want to be recognized as such) and come up with Kargil.

One can sort of blame Ayub as the instigator for all of this(although the fault lies with the colluding opportunist who essentially took over after Jinnah died.. sidelining all the original ML leadership). As the repeated bemoaning of his imminent retirement as per Jinnah's instructions and how he ended up leading the country eventually into total ethnic divide cannot go without saying.

On the topic, while Gibraltar was a total failure for the time(how it encouraged the idea that Kashmiris first have to be convinced of independence and local militancy cultivated might be taken as some benefit in lessons), Grand Slam may not have been had it not been.. again.. for nepotism and bigotry. Whereas you had Gen Akhtar on a Blitzkrieg all the way to Akhnur and a certain chokehold on Indian Kashmir.. you ended up with Yahya Khan who was always the cautious toady who was only interested in advancing his career and little with actual warfighting.
 
One can sort of blame Ayub as the instigator for all of this(although the fault lies with the colluding opportunist who essentially took over after Jinnah died.. sidelining all the original ML leadership). As the repeated bemoaning of his imminent retirement as per Jinnah's instructions and how he ended up leading the country eventually into total ethnic divide cannot go without saying.

On the topic, while Gibraltar was a total failure for the time(how it encouraged the idea that Kashmiris first have to be convinced of independence and local militancy cultivated might be taken as some benefit in lessons), Grand Slam may not have been had it not been.. again.. for nepotism and bigotry. Whereas you had Gen Akhtar on a Blitzkrieg all the way to Akhnur and a certain chokehold on Indian Kashmir.. you ended up with Yahya Khan who was always the cautious toady who was only interested in advancing his career and little with actual warfighting.

The fact of the matter is the absolute vaccuum of leadership in Pakistan, after Jinnah. I heard M.C.Chagla; (a great jurist in India) who was an unstinting admirer and apprentice of Jinnah ..... till Jinnah entered active politics...... speak about this; but that is relevant elsewhere.

Gen Akhtar and his role is common knowledge, just as what happened in the aftermath is. About the other things, 1965 helped India also to crystallise its own strategic thinking w.r.t Kashmir. When push comes to shove; it was desirable, even necessary to escalate and expand the scope of the Ops. That was the first instance of 'break-out' thinking by the political leadership in India.
 
The fact of the matter is the absolute vaccuum of leadership in Pakistan, after Jinnah. I

After Jinnah there were too many contenders for the THRONE

There was a power struggle between the Military and the civilians

1965 helped India also to crystallise its own strategic thinking w.r.t Kashmir.

1965 Helped India to crystallise its Pakistan policy

1965 Convinced Indian leadership to go ALL the way in 1971
to sort out the Two front threat once and for all
 
The fact of the matter is the absolute vaccuum of leadership in Pakistan, after Jinnah. I heard M.C.Chagla; (a great jurist in India) who was an unstinting admirer and apprentice of Jinnah ..... till Jinnah entered active politics...... speak about this; but that is relevant elsewhere.

Gen Akhtar and his role is common knowledge, just as what happened in the aftermath is. About the other things, 1965 helped India also to crystallise its own strategic thinking w.r.t Kashmir. When push comes to shove; it was desirable, even necessary to escalate and expand the scope of the Ops. That was the first instance of 'break-out' thinking by the political leadership in India.
There are a great many questions unanswered about Jinnah and his undoubtedly charismatic effect on those around him, but most importantly it is necessary to look that events that shaped him and his decisions. But quite frankly, the politicians of pre-partition India.. that includes Gandhi, Nehru, Azad, Jinnah and all others.. essentially were massive blunderers(unintentionally or intentionally) who gave into the division of a people carried out in a masterful way by the British(who however saw it go out of control when it came to their own ends of holding onto the colony as long as possible) in the means to achieve their own personal victories(even if fuelled by their love for their countrymen).

It is ironic then, that India would go ahead and carry out the nuclear tests and essentially create the best deterrence to this expand policy that Pakistan could ask for with the overhang of nuclear war. But then again, perhaps it is a necessary evil. Because regardless of the pitter patter at the LoC there is common understanding that all out war is simply no longer possible due to the nukes.
 
There are a great many questions unanswered about Jinnah and his undoubtedly charismatic effect on those around him, but most importantly it is necessary to look that events that shaped him and his decisions. But quite frankly, the politicians of pre-partition India.. that includes Gandhi, Nehru, Azad, Jinnah and all others.. essentially were massive blunderers(unintentionally or intentionally) who gave into the division of a people carried out in a masterful way by the British(who however saw it go out of control when it came to their own ends of holding onto the colony as long as possible) in the means to achieve their own personal victories(even if fuelled by their love for their countrymen).

It is ironic then, that India would go ahead and carry out the nuclear tests and essentially create the best deterrence to this expand policy that Pakistan could ask for with the overhang of nuclear war. But then again, perhaps it is a necessary evil. Because regardless of the pitter patter at the LoC there is common understanding that all out war is simply no longer possible due to the nukes.

Well said, however if nukes could act as complete shield against future major conflicts for either nation then what is the rationale behind Pakistan's quest for conventional parity with India at the huge cost to it's economy.

Now of-course the same can be argued for India w.r.t China and I accept that logic but I would like to hear your opinion on pursuit for conventional parity b/w two nuclear capable adversaries.

Regards
 
There are a great many questions unanswered about Jinnah and his undoubtedly charismatic effect on those around him, but most importantly it is necessary to look that events that shaped him and his decisions. But quite frankly, the politicians of pre-partition India.. that includes Gandhi, Nehru, Azad, Jinnah and all others.. essentially were massive blunderers(unintentionally or intentionally) who gave into the division of a people carried out in a masterful way by the British(who however saw it go out of control when it came to their own ends of holding onto the colony as long as possible) in the means to achieve their own personal victories(even if fuelled by their love for their countrymen).

Sorry SIR ; we just cant agree with you

Partition was INEVITABLE ; there was total mistrust on all levels

If not in 1947 ; then it would have happened in 1967

The so called final concession of Accepting the Cabinet Mission plan ; by the Muslim League
was a ruse to get the whole of Punjab ; Kashmir ; Bengal and Assam at a later date
 

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