Government Opponents Face Torture, Censorship and Political Repression

[Zeeshan S.]

P.s: I take that, no one has anything to answer for the questions raised and about the report itself.

We are not on the forums 24/7 like you. If we dont post doesn't mean that we dont have answers. Grow up would you? :wall:

 

[Jay_]

There are other detailed reports including the ones from Indo-Pak summits where Pakistan has made clear that a Full Independancy is an option if thats what Kashmiri's want.

The ground reality is entirely different. So what ever news that comes out of Pakistan will not have merit unless there is some action on ground towards that path.

Indian military presence in IoK (Maqbuza Kashmir) justifies PA stronghold in AJK and vice versa.
Only difference is that civil casualties are far less on our side...

We can argue this all day long, Indian military did not decide to post its troops in Kashmir all of a sudden in one fine day. You know the history very well.

Civilian casualities are marginally less in Pakistan coz you dont see militants trained and armed by India crossing the LOC in to Azad Kashmir and attack civilians.

 

[Jay_]

We are not on the forums 24/7 like you. If we dont post doesn't mean that we dont have answers. Grow up would you? :wall:

So you had time to search and find those links about India but not a single answer to the topic in the discussion ?? And what are you doing in the forums still? You just said you dont stay here 24/7. I didnt see you go offline from the point where you posted the response upuntill now.

You need better defense grandpa.

 

[Neo]

The ground reality is entirely different. So what ever news that comes out of Pakistan will not have merit unless there is some action on ground towards that path.

Actually I'm yet to see once single report from India stating that a Full Independancy is an option...

 

[Jay_]

Actually I'm yet to see once single report from India stating that a Full Independancy is an option...

Yes, KAshmir was fully independent before it got invaded by you know who. So India does not believe that Kashmir can independently survive as it was amply demonstrated in 1948.

 

[Neo]

Yes, KAshmir was fully independent before it got invaded by you know who. So India does not believe that Kashmir can independently survive as it was amply demonstrated in 1948.

It was invaded only after Hari slammed a protest for delaying the Instrument of Succession since he had his own agenda.
History teaches me that India didn't think that some other parts of British India wouldn't survice either under independance and were systematically annexed: Hyderabad, Goa and Sikkim should ring a bell...

Under the Partition Act, Kashmiri have the right to deceide for themselves regadrless what Pakistan or India believe.

 

[Jay_]

It was invaded only after Hari slammed a protest for delaying the Instrument of Succession since he had his own agenda.

Hari was the ruler of Kashmir and its ok to have an agenda for his own people. Newly independent Pakistan did not had any rights or whatsoever on independent Kashmir.

History teaches me that India didn't think that some other parts of British India wouldn't survice either under independance and were systematically annexed: Hyderabad, Goa and Sikkim should ring a bell...

Yes and you say this at this point coz Pakistan was trying to do the same in Kashmir??

Under the Partition Act, Kashmiri have the right to deceide for themselves regadrless what Pakistan or India believe.

Hari Singh decided to be independent by signing stand still act with both India and Pakistan, which means Kashmiris franchised their right.

 

[Neo]

1-Hari was the ruler of Kashmir and its ok to have an agenda for his own people.
2-Newly independent Pakistan did not had any rights or whatsoever on independent Kashmir.

1-Fair enough, but still he'd the obligation to respect and to conduct the timeline and deadlines agreed between the parties to complete Partition Act.
2-Dirct reaction to Hari's slamming down the muslim protest which sent the wrong signals to already highly tensed community.

Yes and you say this at this point coz Pakistan was trying to do the same in Kashmir??

Again, politics is selfserving my friend! :wink:
Btw, it can not be proven what Pakistan was trying to do since we never got to take hole of Kashmir and it became a disputed territory as recognised under UN.
In your case, annexation became a fact! :wink:

Hari Singh decided to be independent by signing stand still act with both India and Pakistan, which means Kashmiris franchised their right.

Corrct me if I'm wrong, there was no such option as to get a full independancy. It was either India or Pakistan.
There's a footnoot about small kingdoms though which I never got to finish...

 

[Jay_]

1-Fair enough, but still he'd the obligation to respect and to conduct the timeline and deadlines agreed between the parties to complete Partition Act.

There was no dead line set in the stand still agreement he signed with Pakistan. Had there been one, Pakistan couldve officially invaded Kashmir, not using civilian militia.

2-Dirct reaction to Hari's slamming down the muslim protest which sent the wrong signals to already highly tensed community.

The stand still agreement with Pakistan does not include Pakistan's control on Kashmir's internal issues. It just asked for the continuance of travel, trade and communications.

Again, politics is selfserving my friend! :wink:

Ofcourse, thats my main point of this whole discussion. Pakistan is supporting Kashmiri militants for their interest, not essentially Kashmiris.

Btw, it can not be proven what Pakistan was trying to do since we never got to take hole of Kashmir and it became a disputed territory as recognised under UN. In your case, annexation became a fact! :wink:

The HRW report is just an eye opener on what would have happened to Kashmir if India did not annexe Kashmir after Maharaja Hari Singh's accession to India.

Corrct me if I'm wrong, there was no such option as to get a full independancy. It was either India or Pakistan.

Yeah, but Pakistan accepted Hari Singh's stand still agreement, while India did not. So you broke your own agreement.

There's a footnoot about small kingdoms though which I never got to finish...

I havent read the fully yet as well, just bits and pieces, is there a place where its available as a whole?

 

[Awesome]

Asim,
So whats your take on this? You are in a minority who thinks Kashmir shud not belong to India nor Pakistan but for Kashmiris.

And I know other people here, who said things about Abu Gharib torture, now what are you going to do about the torture Kashmiris are facing from Pakistani Army/Intel?

I think there are excesses pressed upon all Pakistanis from different wakes of life and is not merely a thing we reserve for Kashmiris. We have bad people too!

I know I am in a minority who believes Pak and India should relent control off their parts of Kashmir and let a new independent country be formed. But it is still the most practical solution out there. As for these human rights abuses, I won't question it since I've known for them to happen in other parts of Pakistan as well.

But that said, it does not belittle the extreme love and passion we have for Kashmiris and their independence cause to free them from state-wide abuses they suffer at the hands of the army, which wants to pretend that there's nothing rotten in the state of denmark.

 

[Awesome]

I think there's a Musharraf interview where when he was asked does Pakistan agree to Kashmir's independence, unlike India, he said "That is definitely on the table, but there has to be some positive signs from the Indians and the Kashmiris should ask for it"

There is just no comparison of Pakistan's moral stance on Kashmir and India's.

 

[Jay_]

I think there are excesses pressed upon all Pakistanis from different wakes of life and is not merely a thing we reserve for Kashmiris. We have bad people too!

Just coz regular Pakistani citizens are abused, does not warrant that the Kashmiris should be treated the same way. Since Azad Kashmir has a seperate PM and etc, shouldnt PA be more generous towards their hosts??

I know I am in a minority who believes Pak and India should relent control off their parts of Kashmir and let a new independent country be formed. But it is still the most practical solution out there. As for these human rights abuses, I won't question it since I've known for them to happen in other parts of Pakistan as well.

Ah, that excuse aint gonna work. You have been claiming Azad Kashmir as disputed, it aint your territory, so even if it happens through out Pakistan, it shud not happen in Azad Kashmir.

But that said, it does not belittle the extreme love and passion we have for Kashmiris and their independence cause to free them from state-wide abuses they suffer at the hands of the army, which wants to pretend that there's nothing rotten in the state of denmark.

Ah, no ones pretending anyhing, its just your extreme love and passion for Kashmiris has lead to the torture and repression of the Kashmiris, which does not make sense at all. If this is not state wide abuse, then what is, by your definition?

I think there's a Musharraf interview where when he was asked does Pakistan agree to Kashmir's independence, unlike India, he said "That is definitely on the table, but there has to be some positive signs from the Indians and the Kashmiris should ask for it"

I havent seen that table that you are talking about, now Mushraff isnt a god who can force a solution on your nation. Do you think Musharaff can publicly say that in Pakistan??

 

[sigatoka]

Ah, no ones pretending anyhing, its just your extreme love and passion for Kashmiris has lead to the torture and repression of the Kashmiris, which does not make sense at all. If this is not state wide abuse, then what is, by your definition?

I havent seen that table that you are talking about, now Mushraff isnt a god who can force a solution on your nation. Do you think Musharaff can publicly say that in Pakistan??

The brutality and repression that Indian forces employ in Kashmir includes cold blooded murder of unarmed civilians, rape of women and using Kashmir as a mere pawn is sickening and is no way proportionate to the level of abuse committed by PA.

Musharaff has pleaded with the Indians to come to the table and negotiate in good spirit. India must realise that war with Pak. will destroy both countries. The best opportunity for peace in decades is before the two nations and all India can think of is hanging to vestiges of greatness through the use of widespread oppression.

Pak. is not a weak state, it is not lebannon and Israel situation.

 

[Jay_]

The brutality and repression that Indian forces employ in Kashmir includes cold blooded murder of unarmed civilians, rape of women and using Kashmir as a mere pawn is sickening and is no way proportionate to the level of abuse committed by PA.

Lets be clear here, are you supporting/defending the abuses by PA coz you think IA does the same??

Musharaff has pleaded with the Indians to come to the table and negotiate in good spirit.

Yeah, he pleaded very well in Kargil.

India must realise that war with Pak. will destroy both countries. The best opportunity for peace in decades is before the two nations and all India can think of is hanging to vestiges of greatness through the use of widespread oppression.

If what ever said in the first post is not oppression (by PA) then god knows what is.

Pak. is not a weak state, it is not lebannon and Israel situation.

Thank god, Pakistan is not like Lebanon where a militia can put diktats on the country's defence and foregin policy.

 

[Bull]

how you came to that conclusion?

because when aksed abt pakistyans torture on Azad kashmir, Zeeshan justified it with somolar reports.

AR,its no enlightment to know Indian army had stage managed encounters.That was wide;y published all around the world and they are being court martialled for that,and a few have lost the job for that.