Why Pakistan does not recognize to Israel ?

[Jungibaaz]

They don't take advice of their most important allies, they won't care what Pakistan says. No one needs the headache, even Europeans/Americans wanting to distance themselves from Israel because it gives them headache. Europe is secular, Israel is secular lifestyle but run by religious right wing which has religious fantasies that guide their policies towards the Palestinians.

UK and USA along with UN recognize Israel right? How many times has Israel listened to them regarding their human rights issues?

And what is the obvious reason ?

What has Qatar achieved with its formal relations with Israel ?
What did Turkey achieve when its citizens were killed by the Israeli troops despite Turkey being a major military trading partner ?
What has Egypt been able to do for Palestine with its relations with Israel?

No sarcasm, just honest questions.

Incorrect. Israel has succumbed to pressure by the US, and you have not realised it or perceived it. A simple question, who is the master of will between the following; a section of Israelis themselves that may do something widely condemned and not supported, and if then would they sustain themselves on their own, or are the Americans as a whole and those who govern the limits Israel must abide by the most powerful, or is it those in American politics who lobby and exert their in enforcing limits where they please and removing them wherever convenient, often as it is in favour of the Israelis?

John Mearsheimer once discussed this in great detail, and what he said is very telling in places, though I disagree with it in other places, to the best of my understanding he overstated the power of the lobbies in some particular cases and did not consider or perhaps just not comment on intervening variables, or intervening lobbies and interests rather.

For example, I can let you know, probably among the most extreme supporters of the Israelis was the Bush Sr administration, though they did not receive any lobby funding, why? It's because their stance was not public, it just so happened that for whatever OTHER reasons they saw it within their interests to do it this way, independent of whether; public opinion supported it, whether it was in Israel's interests, whether it was in the US' interests, or any lobby pressure/support.

If the interests of the Israelis ever conflicted with the interests of the US, really think about this now, who do you think, if any, would sway the other to their position? Now, the answer is not obvious or intuitive, this is because that to us, we bystanders look on in confusion at this little tiny nation with it's significant yet still very small lobby seemingly causing pain and going against the interests of their benefactors who are much larger and exponentially larger. The answer to this puzzling riddle is, that both the Israelis and the US have had their governments conform to take a stances that sometimes seem to be not in the interests of one or the other, but they don't seem to be too keen on conflict or cutting ties or exerting pressure. It is because that even when Israel is acting against its own interests in compromising its security in building settlements and the US is also compromising its interests in supporting it and having its image and credibility ruined and added headaches to deal with, someone in that loop is benefiting, otherwise it would not be happening.

You think that Google, Lockheed, Microsoft, Exxon Mobil, Chevron etc would stand by if their interests were compromised by Israel? Or that they stood to lose ANYTHING at all if the Israelis did one thing or the other? Absolutely not, those giants could have the Israeli lobby on their knees begging for mercy at a whim, within minutes of making any decision to do so. But it doesn't happen.

Now, all that is just there to show you that your idea that Israel is somehow invincible when it comes to foreign pressure is false, in fact it will succumb if given the right motivation, and in order to exert pressure pissed off Muslim countries have no say really. Sure, we're pissed off, so what? Where does it advance the Palestinian cause or the cause for peace? You think the Israelis aren't aware of the fact that when settlements are announced or when pictures of dead babies hit our television screens there isn't a backlash? Be it only opinion polls or protests, they know there's an effect, they do it anyway. What alternatives you may suggest have been tried and have rather fatal flaws that I can easily mention above.

Instead, what a country like Pakistan can do, though irrelevant now, recognize Israel and use diplomacy and relations to exert pressure for it not to overstep the limits imposed upon states that abide by international law, and to heed the advice of its diplomatic relations and pay attention to such cables for its own sake or for maintaining said relations.

I will give you a small example, here in the UK, the Universities students would come out in their thousands to protest in London against Israeli aggression, not a peep from the Israeli apologists, not much of a response form the British government, only stand alone MPs disobeying party lines and speaking up. Point is, nothing happened, no pressure or any heat did the Israelis feel. However, when Student Unions began circulating the idea of an academic boycott of Israeli universities and firms, that hurt, and a few universities actually passed the BDS movement into official university policy, THAT is serious damage and actual pressure, and in fact, the days before the votes, I know and saw with my own eyes how troubled Israeli apologists felt, and how they urged their supporters to do something against this.

We should learn something from this, there is no point in standing by and shouting, if you want pressure and your voice to be heard, do something to allow yourself that advantage, you need not compromise principle to do it.

Also, it is funny you mention Turkey, it is they who have caused Israel more grief and stress than the rest combined in using their diplomatic gain, yet again, for why that hasn't done anything significant, see above.

 

[Spectre]

So if Hamas stops they will too? What Hamas existed in 1960s? Coz that is how long this continuous damage has been going on

Damage done to Israel has been continuous basis to Israel including in 60s ofcourse 60s also had 67 which saw a major war in addition to numerous terrorist attacks.

Apr 26, 1960 - Militants killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.
Apr 12, 1962 - Militants fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.
Sept 30, 1962 - Two Militants attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.
May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.
June 1, 1965 - Militants attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftah.
Sept 29, 1965 - A Militant was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.
Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were unhurt.
Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by Militants wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit She'an Valley.
May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.
July 14, 1966 - Militants attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.
July 19, 1966 - Militants infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.
Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.

 

[Dubious]

Incorrect. Israel has succumbed to pressure by the US, and you have not realised it or perceived it. A simple question, who is the master of will between the following; a section of Israelis themselves that may do something widely condemned and not supported, and if then would they sustain themselves on their own, or are the Americans as a whole and those who govern the limits Israel must abide by the most powerful, or is it those in American politics who lobby and exert their in enforcing limits where they please and removing them wherever convenient, often as it is in favour of the Israelis?

John Mearsheimer once discussed this in great detail, and what he said is very telling in places, though I disagree with it in other places, to the best of my understanding he overstated the power of the lobbies in some particular cases and did not consider or perhaps just not comment on intervening variables, or intervening lobbies and interests rather.

For example, I can let you know, probably among the most extreme supporters of the Israelis was the Bush Sr administration, though they did not receive any lobby funding, why? It's because their stance was not public, it just so happened that for whatever OTHER reasons they saw it within their interests to do it this way, independent of whether; public opinion supported it, whether it was in Israel's interests, whether it was in the US' interests, or any lobby pressure/support.

If the interests of the Israelis ever conflicted with the interests of the US, really think about this now, who do you think, if any, would sway the other to their position? Now, the answer is not obvious or intuitive, this is because that to us, we bystanders look on in confusion at this little tiny nation with it's significant yet still very small lobby seemingly causing pain and going against the interests of their benefactors who are much larger and exponentially larger. The answer to this puzzling riddle is, that both the Israelis and the US have had their governments conform to take a stances that sometimes seem to be not in the interests of one or the other, but they don't seem to be too keen on conflict or cutting ties or exerting pressure. It is because that even when Israel is acting against its own interests in compromising its security in building settlements and the US is also compromising its interests in supporting it and having its image and credibility ruined and added headaches to deal with, someone in that loop is benefiting, otherwise it would not be happening.

You think that Google, Lockheed, Microsoft, Exxon Mobil, Chevron etc would stand by if their interests were compromised by Israel? Or that they stood to lose ANYTHING at all if the Israelis did one thing or the other? Absolutely not, those giants could have the Israeli lobby on their knees begging for mercy at a whim, within minutes of making any decision to do so. But it doesn't happen.

Now, all that is just there to show you that your idea that Israel is somehow invincible when it comes to foreign pressure is false, in fact it will succumb if given the right motivation, and in order to exert pressure pissed off Muslim countries have no say really. Sure, we're pissed off, so what? Where does it advance the Palestinian cause or the cause for peace? You think the Israelis aren't aware of the fact that when settlements are announced or when pictures of dead babies hit our television screens there isn't a backlash? Be it only opinion polls or protests, they know there's an effect, they do it anyway. What alternatives you may suggest have been tried and have rather fatal flaws that I can easily mention above.

Instead, what a country like Pakistan can do, though irrelevant now, recognize Israel and use diplomacy and relations to exert pressure for it not to overstep the limits imposed upon states that abide by international law, and to heed the advice of its diplomatic relations and pay attention to such cables for its own sake or for maintaining said relations.

I will give you a small example, here in the UK, the Universities students would come out in their thousands to protest in London against Israeli aggression, not a peep from the Israeli apologists, not much of a response form the British government, only stand alone MPs disobeying party lines and speaking up. Point is, nothing happened, no pressure or any heat did the Israelis feel. However, when Student Unions began circulating the idea of an academic boycott of Israeli universities and firms, that hurt, and a few universities actually passed the BDS movement into official university policy, THAT is serious damage and actual pressure, and in fact, the days before the votes, I know and saw with my own eyes how troubled Israeli apologists felt, and how they urged their supporters to do something against this.

We should learn something from this, there is no point in standing by and shouting, if you want pressure and your voice to be heard, do something to allow yourself that advantage, you need not compromise principle to do it.

Also, it is funny you mention Turkey, it is they who have caused Israel most grief and stress than the rest combined in using their diplomatic gain, yet again, for why that hasn't done anything significant, see above.

OK thank you for the discussion....

But to what will israel listen to us on?
The question is not about US recognition of Israel though we did question to what did Israel listen so far to?

I mean simply saying UN has requested their presence in Israel (after recognizing it) but so far israel has refused it...How much help was that?

UK protests every fight israel launches on Palestinians....how has that made israel weak in the knees?

Let say for the sake of argument that we recognize Israel, what do we hold that will make it listen? Do we have a stronghold to let in our comments or will we play the puppet UN role?

 

[Spectre]

Incorrect. Israel has succumbed to pressure by the US, and you have not realised it or perceived it. A simple question, who is the master of will between the following; a section of Israelis themselves that may do something widely condemned and not supported, and if then would they sustain themselves on their own, or are the Americans as a whole and those who govern the limits Israel must abide by the most powerful, or is it those in American politics who lobby and exert their in enforcing limits where they please and removing them wherever convenient, often as it is in favour of the Israelis?

John Mearsheimer once discussed this in great detail, and what he said is very telling in places, though I disagree with it in other places, to the best of my understanding he overstated the power of the lobbies in some particular cases and did not consider or perhaps just not comment on intervening variables, or intervening lobbies and interests rather.

For example, I can let you know, probably among the most extreme supporters of the Israelis was the Bush Sr administration, though they did not receive any lobby funding, why? It's because their stance was not public, it just so happened that for whatever OTHER reasons they saw it within their interests to do it this way, independent of whether; public opinion supported it, whether it was in Israel's interests, whether it was in the US' interests, or any lobby pressure/support.

If the interests of the Israelis ever conflicted with the interests of the US, really think about this now, who do you think, if any, would sway the other to their position? Now, the answer is not obvious or intuitive, this is because that to us, we bystanders look on in confusion at this little tiny nation with it's significant yet still very small lobby seemingly causing pain and going against the interests of their benefactors who are much larger and exponentially larger. The answer to this puzzling riddle is, that both the Israelis and the US have had their governments conform to take a stances that sometimes seem to be not in the interests of one or the other, but they don't seem to be too keen on conflict or cutting ties or exerting pressure. It is because that even when Israel is acting against its own interests in compromising its security in building settlements and the US is also compromising its interests in supporting it and having its image and credibility ruined and added headaches to deal with, someone in that loop is benefiting, otherwise it would not be happening.

You think that Google, Lockheed, Microsoft, Exxon Mobil, Chevron etc would stand by if their interests were compromised by Israel? Or that they stood to lose ANYTHING at all if the Israelis did one thing or the other? Absolutely not, those giants could have the Israeli lobby on their knees begging for mercy at a whim, within minutes of making any decision to do so. But it doesn't happen.

Now, all that is just there to show you that your idea that Israel is somehow invincible when it comes to foreign pressure is false, in fact it will succumb if given the right motivation, and in order to exert pressure pissed off Muslim countries have no say really. Sure, we're pissed off, so what? Where does it advance the Palestinian cause or the cause for peace? You think the Israelis aren't aware of the fact that when settlements are announced or when pictures of dead babies hit our television screens there isn't a backlash? Be it only opinion polls or protests, they know there's an effect, they do it anyway. What alternatives you may suggest have been tried and have rather fatal flaws that I can easily mention above.

Instead, what a country like Pakistan can do, though irrelevant now, recognize Israel and use diplomacy and relations to exert pressure for it not to overstep the limits imposed upon states that abide by international law, and to heed the advice of its diplomatic relations and pay attention to such cables for its own sake or for maintaining said relations.

I will give you a small example, here in the UK, the Universities students would come out in their thousands to protest in London against Israeli aggression, not a peep from the Israeli apologists, not much of a response form the British government, only stand alone MPs disobeying party lines and speaking up. Point is, nothing happened, no pressure or any heat did the Israelis feel. However, when Student Unions began circulating the idea of an academic boycott of Israeli universities and firms, that hurt, and a few universities actually passed the BDS movement into official university policy, THAT is serious damage and actual pressure, and in fact, the days before the votes, I know and saw with my own eyes how troubled Israeli apologists felt, and how they urged their supporters to do something against this.

We should learn something from this, there is no point in standing by and shouting, if you want pressure and your voice to be heard, do something to allow yourself that advantage, you need not compromise principle to do it.

Also, it is funny you mention Turkey, it is they who have caused Israel more grief and stress than the rest combined in using their diplomatic gain, yet again, for why that hasn't done anything significant, see above.

Extremely well argued. The already significant change in Israeli Foreign Policy posture critical issues like Iran suggest that US is not playing ball with Israel and for once it is Israel which has to bend to accommodate US.

Pakistan is a fringe player in Israeli - Palestinian politics with no direct stakes and it will remain so as long as it continues with it's naïve policy which is atleast overtly that Israel is bad. Diplomacy needs to be conduct with a touch of empathy and an understanding of the issues faced by other side too. Pakistan has to realised that Palestine issue is multi-layered and complex with both sides having legitimate concerns, requiring a nuanced approach not a faulty principled one.

 

[Dubious]

Damage done to Israel has been continuous basis to Israel including in 60s ofcourse 60s also had 67 which saw a major war in addition to numerous terrorist attacks.

Apr 26, 1960 - Militants killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.
Apr 12, 1962 - Militants fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.
Sept 30, 1962 - Two Militants attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.
May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.
June 1, 1965 - Militants attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftah.
Sept 29, 1965 - A Militant was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.
Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were unhurt.
Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by Militants wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit She'an Valley.
May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.
July 14, 1966 - Militants attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.
July 19, 1966 - Militants infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.
Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.

As per your saying As a reminder of course

Selective facts are as good as lies.

Militants did all this and Did Israel EVER in these years cause any harm to Palestinians?

And not forget this piece when you answer:

smug self righteousness and intellectual dishonesty

 

[Spectre]

Militants did all this and Did Israel EVER in these years cause any harm to Palestinians?

You are welcome to set the record straight.

 

[Dubious]

@Spectre Let me refresh your memory (which you effectively ignored) with what I presented from Israeli policy makers words not the words of a porf or a historian but the words on ground back in history to give you a showcase of how much you are ignoring for the sake of arguing "israel is all good and the victim":

6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

10. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

14. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

17. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either.Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

Just to name a few examples of Israel's "doing nothing" over the years ...

And a good day to you too!

 

[Curious_Guy]

We would shock the world by soonet or later going to war with Israel.

this is patriotism or something speaking , War with Israel not in our Intrest , our plate is full with enemies already

 

[Spectre]

@Spectre Let me refresh your memory (which you effectively ignored) with what I presented from Israeli policy makers words not the words of a porf or a historian but the words on ground back in history to give you a showcase of how much you are ignoring for the sake of arguing "israel is all good and the victim":

I don't for a moment think Israel is good and Palestinians are bad. World is way more complex than this white and black analogy. Israel has most decidedly committed human rights violations and heinous crimes in the name of protecting their citizens. They have oppressed Palestinians and killed indiscriminately a few times. Just that Palestinians , Hamas, Hezbollah and others are no meek sheep in this fight.

You took a position on Israel which I found unfair, that's it. They are both victims and perpetrators but then so are Palestinians. At the risk of repeatedly being redundant I would just urge to not paint either party in completely black or white.

Regards

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Will China make you super power ? There are many things from agriculture to science and technology which we can learn from Israel.

Not quite. But China gave us the means and tools to become a nuclear weapons state. Because of China we have a powerful and fairly advanced military. China is investing $46 billion in our country. This will one day make Pakistan a fully industrialized nation with a world class economy. Because of Chinese help, Pakistan did not become like Iraq, Afghanistan or Palestine. Did the israelis do the above for us?

Pakistan already has the ability to indigenously become scientifically and technologically advanced. And to make great strides in pharmacy, agriculture and other scientific fields. What we don't have we can get from China and other reliable sources. The reason why we don't implement our true abilities is due to corruption, disunity, bureaucracy and overall stupidity. Not because we don't recognize israel.

 

[Dubious]

I don't for a moment think Israel is good and Palestinians are bad. World is way more complex than this white and black analogy. Israel has most decidedly committed human rights violations and heinous crimes in the name of protecting their citizens. They have oppressed Palestinians and killed indiscriminately a few times. Just that Palestinians , Hamas, Hezbollah and others are no meek sheep in this fight.

You took a position on Israel which I found unfair, that's it. They are both victims and perpetrators but then so are Palestinians. At the risk of repeatedly being redundant I would just urge to not paint either party in completely black or white.

Regards

I never said Hamas was an angle not Hezbollah....

The thread is about Israel but you refused to talk about Israel without bringing in the sympathy factor .......

Because you cherry picked my words....However you saying xyz is fine but god forbid a Pakistani says it!

A nation that butchers its neighbour to make space for themselves and calls anything remote different to their story as a lie? Will they really give us technology? Are they willing to teach gentiles let alone Muslims?

@Jungibaaz you have forgotten to enlighten us regarding this:

What technology has the Arabs acquired from shaking hands with them

 

[pak-marine]

Sorry that is issue of entire Muslim world not just Arabs. @MBilal106 Israel would never be recognized until Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital is created.

Molvi no muslim world gives a flying fck about pakistan .. so save that garbage for some one else .. Nations works for its interests ! Pakistanis have shed enough blood for arabs enough of it now !

 

[Spectre]

I never said Hamas was an angle not Hezbollah....

The thread is about Israel but you refused to talk about Israel without bringing in the sympathy factor .......

Because you cherry picked my words....However you saying xyz is fine but god forbid a Pakistani says it!

As long as you realize that Israelis have had ample provocation before they responded (sometimes even indiscriminately) and there are no innocents neither the Palestinians, nor the myriad terrorist groups/freedom fighters sponsored by those sympathetic to Palestinian cause nor Israelis - I am good and find no cause to continue this discussion which is increasingly going in circles.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Molvi no muslim world gives a flying fck about pakistan .. so save that garbage for some one else .. Nations works for its interests ! Pakistanis have shed enough blood for arabs enough of it now !

And thank Allah swt that Pakistan does NOT NEED the other Muslim nations or nations of other creeds for that matter to care or give a damn about us. We know how to take care of our problems.

 

[HttpError]

It is time to recognize Israel, we have no enmity with Israel and we don't have to because of some 3rd parties who are shacking hands with our enemies if they can shake hands with our rivals we reserve the right as well, enough of this BS.