Should the US continue support to Israel?

[Falcon29]

Sir, please respond to the content of my posts without resorting to personal attacks. Thank you.

Sir, stop playing your dirty game like you always do. Take your rhetoric and put it where it belongs.

 

[Aepsilons]

@AZADPAKISTAN2009 ,

There has been a plethora of rising crises in North Africa as well as in the Middle East that vary in distinction from country to country. Some of the causes may include ideology, religion, politics and these are influenced by sub-independent variables such as tribal dynamic, ethnic composition, sectarianism et al. The violence and infighting , in the form of religious sectarianism, is seen in two particular case examples: 1) the extremist Sunni militancy that has waged a war against the Alawite regime of Syria (which happens to be Shia), and 2) the extremist Sunni militancy in the form of ISIS, ISIL that has now ravaged Iraq and continues to perpetuate crimes against different ethnicities, religious minorities, political-based executions. These examples which shows the political instability in regimes that lack basic civil rights, privatization, due process of the law – are not caused or a direct result of Israeli military provocations, but , rather, are indicative of an endemic nature in some countries that have lack of said civil rights processes.

Golan and Orr (2012) conducted a study that explores the practices, discourses and dilemmas of the Israel human rights NGOs that are working to protect and promote the human rights of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. The article sheds light on the complex nature of what political analysts define as ‘Triangular Translation ‘of human rights, which is distinct from other forms of human rights localization studied. In this process, human rights NGOs translate international human rights norms on one hand, and the suffering of the victims on the other, into the conceptions and legal language commonly employed by the state that violates these rights (Golan and Orr, 2012). The Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI) is an exemplary civil rights groups that caters to Palestinians in the occupied territories , despite the security issues they face especially when travelling to hostile regions in Gaza and West Bank. Their tremendous importance became clear in the assault on Gaza in 2008-2009 when they helped civilian victims of the offensive receive medical care, warned against the Israeli Army’s disproportionate use of weapons, called on Israel to avoid targeting civilians, and reported to international bodies.

When one is to study Israel , especially in conducting a comparative analysis between The United States’ and Israel’s similarities and differences, its important to understand that both states are not only liberal democracies, but both have instruments that focus on legal proceedings , civil rights considerations (Chmiel, 2006). It is important that there is a mechanism within Israel that looks not only religious lines, but functions almost in a secular manner in the dispensation of needs, resources to not only Israeli citizens who come from a varied ethnic and religious backgrounds, but also to Palestinians in the occupied territories, which is antithetical to what some others would consider – the nature of “Zionist” states. Lastly, I would like to elaborate on the cultural similarities between general Israeli society and American society by emphasizing the importance of moral and ethics that is paramount in the national psyche of said nations' and citizens -- it is the Judeo-Christian Ethic.



Professionally Yours,
@Nihonjin1051



Reference:

Chmiel, M. (2006). Israel's higher law: religion and liberal democracy in the Jewish state. Journal Of Church And State, 48(3),

694-695. ​

Golan, D., & Orr, Z. (2012). Translating Human Rights of the 'Enemy': The Case of Israeli NGOs Defending Palestinian

Rights. Law & Society Review, 46(4), 781-814. ​

 

[VCheng]

It is easy to see why intentional inflammation leads to lack of reasoned thinking that is needed for a satisfactory resolution of this problem.

 

[500]

It is even worse, occupation has existed in the occupied territories since the day they were occupied!

They are occupied for centuries.

No, you stop embarrassing yourself. The blockade/occupation has existed in occuipped territories for decades.

Syed.Ali.Haider was talking about the blockade, why u are cheating?

Blockade started in 2007 after the illegal Hamas coup in Gaza. Hamas refused to recognize Oslo agreements and still refuses. Hamas refuses to stop terror. Hamas expelled PLO men who were stationed on Rafah crossing with Egypt.

82. The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

http://www.un.org/News/dh/infocus/middle_east/Gaza_Flotilla_Panel_Report.pdf

Once Hamas accepts Oslo agreements blockade will be lifted immediately.

 

[Falcon29]

They are occupied for centuries.

@Syed.Ali.Haider

Here he is telling you that Palestinian occuipped territories are not Palestinian at all. They're occuipped for centuries by non-Jews and actually are divine Jewish land no matter what.

Exactly as I mentioned. Tell us more about these people who seek a two state solution.

 

[VCheng]

@Syed.Ali.Haider

Here he is telling you that Palestinian occuipped territories are not Palestinian at all. They're occuipped for centuries by non-Jews and actually are divine Jewish land no matter what.

Exactly as I mentioned.

Those claims are totally incorrect too. The Jews right to this land arises out of their acceptance of the British partition plan, which created the State of Israel in 1948.

 

[Falcon29]

Those claims are totally incorrect too. The Jews right to this land arises out of their acceptance of the British partition plan, which created the State of Israel in 1948.

He's referring to occuipped territories.

 

[VCheng]

He's referring to occuipped territories.

The Jewish rights are restricted to the State of Israel, and do not extend beyond them.

 

[Falcon29]

The Jewish rights are restricted to the State of Israel, and do not extend beyond them.

That's your view but not his or the view of the Israeli government/people.

 

[Maravan]

Why should US stop the support to Israel in first place?

 

[VCheng]

That's your view but not his or the view of the Israeli government/people.

That is exactly why it must be realized that both sides have unreasonable and inflammatory views, and it will take a fair assessment by a third party to get to a negotiated settlement.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

There is no conditional element they merely seek a land to live as Palestinians

@AZADPAKISTAN2009 ,

There has been a plethora of rising crises in North Africa as well as in the Middle East that vary in distinction from country to country. Some of the causes may include ideology, religion, politics and these are influenced by sub-independent variables such as tribal dynamic, ethnic composition, sectarianism et al. The violence and infighting , in the form of religious sectarianism, is seen in two particular case examples: 1) the extremist Sunni militancy that has waged a war against the Alawite regime of Syria (which happens to be Shia), and 2) the extremist Sunni militancy in the form of ISIS, ISIL that has now ravaged Iraq and continues to perpetuate crimes against different ethnicities, religious minorities, political-based executions. These examples which shows the political instability in regimes that lack basic civil rights, privatization, due process of the law – are not caused or a direct result of Israeli military provocations, but , rather, are indicative of an endemic nature in some countries that have lack of said civil rights processes.

Golan and Orr (2012) conducted a study that explores the practices, discourses and dilemmas of the Israel human rights NGOs that are working to protect and promote the human rights of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. The article sheds light on the complex nature of what political analysts define as ‘Triangular Translation ‘of human rights, which is distinct from other forms of human rights localization studied. In this process, human rights NGOs translate international human rights norms on one hand, and the suffering of the victims on the other, into the conceptions and legal language commonly employed by the state that violates these rights (Golan and Orr, 2012). The Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI) is an exemplary civil rights groups that caters to Palestinians in the occupied territories , despite the security issues they face especially when travelling to hostile regions in Gaza and West Bank. Their tremendous importance became clear in the assault on Gaza in 2008-2009 when they helped civilian victims of the offensive receive medical care, warned against the Israeli Army’s disproportionate use of weapons, called on Israel to avoid targeting civilians, and reported to international bodies.

When one is to study Israel , especially in conducting a comparative analysis between The United States’ and Israel’s similarities and differences, its important to understand that both states are not only liberal democracies, but both have instruments that focus on legal proceedings , civil rights considerations (Chmiel, 2006). It is important that there is a mechanism within Israel that looks not only religious lines, but functions almost in a secular manner in the dispensation of needs, resources to not only Israeli citizens who come from a varied ethnic and religious backgrounds, but also to Palestinians in the occupied territories, which is antithetical to what some others would consider – the nature of “Zionist” states. Lastly, I would like to elaborate on the cultural similarities between general Israeli society and American society by emphasizing the importance of moral and ethics that is paramount in the national psyche of said nations' and citizens -- it is the Judeo-Christian Ethic.



Professionally Yours,
@Nihonjin1051



Reference:

Chmiel, M. (2006). Israel's higher law: religion and liberal democracy in the Jewish state. Journal Of Church And State, 48(3),

694-695. ​

Golan, D., & Orr, Z. (2012). Translating Human Rights of the 'Enemy': The Case of Israeli NGOs Defending Palestinian

Rights. Law & Society Review, 46(4), 781-814. ​

Well , first of all there is no comparison between USA and Israel , one is fairly democratic (Provides reasonable justice to its residents), vs Israel which is plan and simple a state based along racial segregation (1 Minority Group , capturing resources by means of weapons)

You can technically belong to different groups yet exist peacefully in community and the rule of justice is equal , however in Israel , the rules do not apply to Palestinians and they do not get any justice in their courts. Plus , they are not recognized as residents if they leave country for what ever reason. So yes , USA and Israel are no where near , to being even remotely close or comparable.

Secondly, we don't care what study was conducted by anyone , the people of region need appropriate basic human rights and this their struggle for such freedom will always make them legitimate contenders to be called as people seeking freedom.

There is proof that the Jewish state offers any reasonable justice to Palestinian man demanding compensation for loss of wages, business or lives in a Jewish court of justice, while a similar scenario if it happened in US courts would likely result in a favorable outcome for Palestinian man if he had his documents completed.

In any form , its great that the article sheds lights on the struggles between the Muslim sects etc however I am sure those issues will self correct overtime. Thank you for the article share

So yes back to discussion , Palestinians do need a free state of their own with own Air Force and Navy and Economy ^_^

Just merely flying F16 over and bombing civilian hospitals and structures is war crime

Reference : Here you go war crime evidence

U.N. says Israel violated international law, after shells hit school in Gaza - The Washington Post

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/middle-east-unrest/another-gaza-hospital-hit-israeli-strike-four-dead-40-hurt-n161086

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/18/israel_bombs_gazas_only_rehab_hospital

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/may/31/israeli-attacks-gaza-flotilla-activists (Attacked Turkey)


As I said before there is 0% similarity between Israel vs USA

Unless you can come up with evidence that states US forces , put 10-15 Million people in camps in their country, and then do not offer them access to courts or hospitals or schools

I don't recall in memory USA specifically targeting "crowded civilian areas" purposely

Then may be I can even consider the argument that US is like Israel , which its not.

That is also the reason why Pakistan Military conducts Joint operations with USA but not anything to do with Israel.

 

[Falcon29]

That is exactly why it must be realized that both sides have unreasonable and inflammatory views, and it will take a fair assessment by a third party to get to a negotiated settlement.

No, it has nothing to do with 'both sides'. Israeli's view occuipped territories as divine Jewish land and their official government policy is no different. Third party negotiation can't change that. US leverage can.

 

[Aepsilons]

Why should the US continue to support Israel?

1) We are bound to by treaty.
2) Lebanon is a failed state, Syria is a failed state, Iraq is a failed state, Libya is a failed state, Egypt is an open question. Israel is an anchor for our interests in the region.
3) Israel is a liberal democracy that largely shares our values.
4) Our support enables us to control their defense industry (veto rights over transfer of technology).
5) Our defense and technology sectors are deeply intertwined.
6) Our support binds them to us diplomatically (Israel has a socialist past, leaving an opening for Russia or China).
7) Their intelligence agencies are able to provide critical insight into the area.
8) Israel is a magnet for Muslim supremacists and terrorists who would otherwise go after us directly. $3bn in aid essentially leverages up to a ~$17bn mosquito torch for the region.
9) We can use Israel as diplomatic leverage in the region (i.e. we will restrain Israel, in return, you do something for us).

The better question is, why shouldn't we continue to support Israel?

1) The enemies of Israel tend to be the worst kind of authoritarian, fundamentalist states, which would naturally be hostile to US whether or not we supported Israel, or even whether or not Israel existed.

2) Can you provide an example of a country that is hostile to Israel, that would not be hostile to the US without our support of Israel, and that the US would derive any benefit from? Turkey is already in our corner, no matter what we do with Israel. Iran will always be against us, no matter what we do with Israel. We don't need Arab oil, which the Arab states realize after their failed oil embargo, so the "moderate" Arab states will stay on-side no matter what we do with Israel.

The only justification I can think of is the cost of the military aid, but that's part of a package with Egypt (and to some extent, Jordan), so it would be difficult to imagine cutting off Israel without cutting off the other two. Cutting off all three would essentially lock the US out of that region--for what benefit?

Excellent analysis @LeveragedBuyout . I particularly liked the rhetorical question that you raised, " Can you provide an example of a country that is hostile to Israel, that would not be hostile to the US without our support of Israel, and that the US would derive any benefit from? "

There is no conditional element they merely seek a land to live as Palestinians


lol I read the sentence "libral" and democracy/israel and I stopped , after that its just not true for Israel sorry

US is different then Israel there is no comparison , between two countries

Your answer leaves me wanting, Sir.

 

[500]

@Syed.Ali.Haider

Here he is telling you that Palestinian occuipped territories are not Palestinian at all. They're occuipped for centuries by non-Jews and actually are divine Jewish land no matter what.

Exactly as I mentioned. Tell us more about these people who seek a two state solution.

Who was a president /king /queen of Palestine when Israel captured these territories in 1967?

As for 2 state solution, Palestinians were offered a state 6 times at least (2 times by Brits, 1 time by UN and 3 times by Israel). And each time they rejected.