What's new

The fate of minorities in Pakistan

I don't know why Pakistanis are in denial of this. Sindh is a total shithole comparable to poor african countries courtesy of Bhutto. Most people here are from Islamabad/Lahore/North Punjab or overseas Pakistanis and can't imagine what conditions Sindhis live in until they see for themselves. Once you've actually been there and experienced how life is then you start to believe these stories.
 
Mian mithu and his ilk is cancer for our country. The forced conversions are not a conspiracy by others but is a bitter reality which is being tackled head on. Underage marriages and forced conversions require our attention.
 
I don't know why Pakistanis are in denial of this. Sindh is a total shithole comparable to poor african countries courtesy of Bhutto. Most people here are from Islamabad/Lahore/North Punjab or overseas Pakistanis and can't imagine what conditions Sindhis live in until they see for themselves. Once you've actually been there and experienced how life is then you start to believe these stories.
Pakistan Punjab is no different. There too you had the widely reported case of a Sikh girl of the Granthi from the local Gurudwara who was abducted and later married off to a Muslim man after her conversion to Islam.

 
Abducted, shackled and forced to marry at 12
By Mike Thomson
BBC News



View attachment 723631



Farah, a 12-year-old Christian girl, says she was taken from her home in Pakistan last summer, shackled, forced to convert to Islam and made to marry her kidnapper. It's a fate estimated to befall hundreds of young Christian, Hindu and Sikh women and children in the country each year.


On 25 June, Farah was at home in Faisalabad, Pakistan's third most populous city, with her grandfather, three brothers and two sisters when they heard knocking on their front door. She remembers her grandfather going to open it. Then three men burst in, grabbed Farah and forced her into a van outside.

They warned the family that if they tried to get her back "they'd make us regret it", says Farah's father, Asif, who was at work at the time.
Asif went to the nearest police station to report the crime - even providing the name of one of the abductors, whom Farah's grandfather had recognised - but he says the officers showed little interest in helping.

"They were very unco-operative and refused to register the crime. Not only that but they pushed me around and verbally abused me."
Despite repeated complaints to the police it was three months before they finally registered the incident. And even then they took no action.

During this time, 12-year-old Farah, who'd been driven 70 miles (110km) to a house in the nearby city of Hafizabad, says she was raped, shackled and treated like a slave.
"I was chained most of the time and ordered to clean the abductor's home as well as take care of the animals in the yard outside. It was terrible," she says.
"They'd put chains on my ankles, and tied me with a rope. I tried to cut the rope and get the chains off, but I couldn't manage it. I prayed every night, saying, 'God, please help me.'"

There were about two million Christians in Pakistan at the time of the last census, just over 1% of the total population.

According to human rights organisations as many as 1,000 Christian, Hindu and Sikh girls are abducted each year. Many of them are forced to convert to Islam, because it is widely believed in Pakistan that marriages under the age of 16 are acceptable under Sharia law if both of those marrying are Muslim. And this is what happened in Farah's case: she was forced to convert, then married by her abductor.

The National Council of Churches in Pakistan (NCCP) says the number of such abductions is increasing.

"It's hundreds, hundreds, many girls, many girls. This crime is committed by many people, and the authorities don't do anything," says the NCCP's general secretary, Bishop Victor Azariah.
Farah's desperately worried father, Asif, sought help from his local church, which then organised legal aid for the family.
In early December, after five months of desperate lobbying for the abductor to be arrested and for Farah to be set free, police finally took action.

"Four police came to the abductor's house and told people there that the court had ordered that I must come with them to a police station," says Farah.
On 5 December, her case came before Faisalabad's District and Sessions Courts and the magistrate sent her to a shelter for women and children, while further investigations were carried out.
The shackles on Farah's ankles left wounds that needed bandaging's ankles left wounds that needed bandaging

image captionThe shackles on Farah's ankles left wounds that took time to heal
But once again there was bad news.

While the family waited for a final decision from the courts, police told Farah's father they were dropping their investigation - because Farah said that she had agreed to both the marriage and the conversion.

Farah then repeated this in court on 23 January. But court officials were suspicious that she may have been coerced into making the statement - and Farah says this was indeed the case.
"I said this because the abductor told me that if I didn't he'd first kill me, then murder my father, followed by my brothers and sisters. My whole family. I was really afraid that he'd do this, so I agreed to say what he told me."

Three weeks later on 16 February, nearly eight months after she was taken from her home, judges ruled that Farah's marriage had not been registered properly and was therefore invalid.
She was saved thanks to a technicality - and reunited with her family.
Farah hugs her sister outside court

image captionFarah hugs one of her sisters outside the court

Even when abducted children are rescued, their ordeal is often far from over. In many cases threats are made to abduct them again, or kill family members, and the trauma goes on.

This is what happened in the case of Maria Shahbaz, a 14-year-old Christian girl, who managed to escape after being kidnapped and forced to marry her abductor. She and her family have since been forced to go into hiding following repeated death threats.

In an effort to help Maria, a 12,500-name petition organised by the UK-based charity, Aid to the Church in Need, was recently handed in to the UK government. Signed by more than 30 British parliamentarians, including bishops, peers and MPs, it calls for her to be granted asylum.
Aid to the Church in Need's Spokesman, John Pontifex, says the situation facing many abducted girls and their families in Pakistan has become desperate.

"The trauma these children go through is often compounded by the threats they and their families face after being freed from their abductors. For some, like Maria, asylum in the UK is their only hope of safety."

Pakistan's prime minister, the former cricketer Imran Khan, has ordered an investigation into forced conversion of religious minorities in the predominantly Muslim country.
His special representative on religious harmony, Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi, recently stated: "Forced marriages, forced conversion of religion and abduction of underage girls of other religions in the name of marriages, will not be tolerated."

However, Asif's experience with the police suggests that there is a long way to go. He has pledged to continue his efforts to get the three men accused of abducting his daughter prosecuted.
Farah, now 13, is overjoyed to be at home again, and is recovering from the trauma of what happened to her with the aid of a psychologist. She fervently hopes that action will finally be taken to spare other girls the same fate.
"I pray that God will protect all children in Pakistan, that he will watch over them all."

Thread already exists @waz
Imagine what goes through the minds of minority parents in Pakistan when they see this happening to their daughters every other day. HELL!


In india forcefull ghar wapsi is supported by govt in Pakistan govt takes notice of ill treatment of minorities and takes action...

Difference
Murtaza Solangi: Executive Editor
Raza Rumi: Founding Editor

I would rather trust a cat with a chicken than these two individuals.
Naya daur is run by so called dissenters bahi
Why? Too hard to handle the truth

None of the above never migrate from India to Pakistan but they do migrate from Pakistan to India. That's answers ur question.
They have no where to migrate to.. Sikhs do come to UK Canada and we know how they speak about indians here 🤣
 
There is a difference between instigating chaos and demanding/providing justice. No one gets out of their house randomly or individually for some random cause. A leader motivates or provokes the population to rise for a particular cause(and that cause has to be strong enough to motivate people to move). You want to make a stand? There are plenty issues plaguing Pakistan, minorities are just one.

More nonsense excuses. The society is heavily rigged against the minorities, there is no denying it. It is not the powerful or the system or some fringe elements or some foreign hand responsible for their miserable situation. It is the regular Pakistani, you and I. The issue is not the pervasive injustice and/or lack of justice in the country, it is your deliberate apathy and complete disregard of their misery. The exact reason why bastards such as these are so fearless in committing these crimes against these helpless minorities. You can't bring yourself to admitting the systemic injustice and discrimination exacted upon your own brothers and sisters let alone post a statement condemning the abduction and rape of a minor. Instead you made it a point to brush it off as if it was nothing. The hypocrisy then is that you would have no problem going on rabid rants against the very same minorities as soon as a Dane sitting thousands of miles away does something against your liking.

Do tell me what judicial/police reforms happened after the "motorway rape case", the whole nation was on the same page for that case no? Do tell me what happened to the model town case? Even leader TuQ/IK were calling for justice for them no?
The atrocities being committed on the majority is also by the majority. There is no sitting back when the majority will get justice, minority will also get justice, there is no preferential treatment.

Hogwash. The injustice against the minorities stems from the societal bias and apathy against them. As is clearly evident from your posts. The extent of injustice faced by minorities is exponentially more than anything the majority has ever had to face.

An example, do tell me the pedophilia has been wiped from Pakistan.


45:30, do tell me he has wiped this crime from Pakistan, he is in government no? There are issues, over issues, tons and tons of 'em. You worry about one, and scratch it, out pops another one. The leadership and those who are in power have to make, judicial and police reforms.

Do tell me if your response to any of those cases was "Meh.....there's injustice every where. So what?"


No they're not. The majority of people in Pakistan aren't forcing themselves upon children. The majority of people don't take to the streets for whatever reason,

"The majority" not "the majority of people".

the majority of people suffer the same way the religious minorities do.

No they do not. How can you even post that?

You and I never had our economic extent limited by our religion, never had our social extent limited by our religion, never feared to have our places of worship burned down just because, were never told to leave the country because it was not ours, never feared to be murdered with impunity, never feared for our women to be abducted with impunity, never feared for what we did or did not say, were never looked down upon for our religion, were never made to answer or pay for something that a man from the opposite end of the planet did or did not say, were never forced to convert, were never forced any limits on the practice or preaching of our religion, and never had any gross injustice against us brushed aside as nothing.
 
Thread already exists @waz

In india forcefull ghar wapsi is supported by govt in Pakistan govt takes notice of ill treatment of minorities and takes action...

Difference
Ask any India Muslim member out here if he can confirm any forceful 'ghar wapsi' in India. @jamahir

On the other hand we saw what happened at Hindu temple building site in Islamabad.

Difference.
 
Abducted, shackled and forced to marry at 12
By Mike Thomson
BBC News



View attachment 723631



Farah, a 12-year-old Christian girl, says she was taken from her home in Pakistan last summer, shackled, forced to convert to Islam and made to marry her kidnapper. It's a fate estimated to befall hundreds of young Christian, Hindu and Sikh women and children in the country each year.


On 25 June, Farah was at home in Faisalabad, Pakistan's third most populous city, with her grandfather, three brothers and two sisters when they heard knocking on their front door. She remembers her grandfather going to open it. Then three men burst in, grabbed Farah and forced her into a van outside.

They warned the family that if they tried to get her back "they'd make us regret it", says Farah's father, Asif, who was at work at the time.
Asif went to the nearest police station to report the crime - even providing the name of one of the abductors, whom Farah's grandfather had recognised - but he says the officers showed little interest in helping.

"They were very unco-operative and refused to register the crime. Not only that but they pushed me around and verbally abused me."
Despite repeated complaints to the police it was three months before they finally registered the incident. And even then they took no action.

During this time, 12-year-old Farah, who'd been driven 70 miles (110km) to a house in the nearby city of Hafizabad, says she was raped, shackled and treated like a slave.
"I was chained most of the time and ordered to clean the abductor's home as well as take care of the animals in the yard outside. It was terrible," she says.
"They'd put chains on my ankles, and tied me with a rope. I tried to cut the rope and get the chains off, but I couldn't manage it. I prayed every night, saying, 'God, please help me.'"

There were about two million Christians in Pakistan at the time of the last census, just over 1% of the total population.

According to human rights organisations as many as 1,000 Christian, Hindu and Sikh girls are abducted each year. Many of them are forced to convert to Islam, because it is widely believed in Pakistan that marriages under the age of 16 are acceptable under Sharia law if both of those marrying are Muslim. And this is what happened in Farah's case: she was forced to convert, then married by her abductor.

The National Council of Churches in Pakistan (NCCP) says the number of such abductions is increasing.

"It's hundreds, hundreds, many girls, many girls. This crime is committed by many people, and the authorities don't do anything," says the NCCP's general secretary, Bishop Victor Azariah.
Farah's desperately worried father, Asif, sought help from his local church, which then organised legal aid for the family.
In early December, after five months of desperate lobbying for the abductor to be arrested and for Farah to be set free, police finally took action.

"Four police came to the abductor's house and told people there that the court had ordered that I must come with them to a police station," says Farah.
On 5 December, her case came before Faisalabad's District and Sessions Courts and the magistrate sent her to a shelter for women and children, while further investigations were carried out.
The shackles on Farah's ankles left wounds that needed bandaging's ankles left wounds that needed bandaging

image captionThe shackles on Farah's ankles left wounds that took time to heal
But once again there was bad news.

While the family waited for a final decision from the courts, police told Farah's father they were dropping their investigation - because Farah said that she had agreed to both the marriage and the conversion.

Farah then repeated this in court on 23 January. But court officials were suspicious that she may have been coerced into making the statement - and Farah says this was indeed the case.
"I said this because the abductor told me that if I didn't he'd first kill me, then murder my father, followed by my brothers and sisters. My whole family. I was really afraid that he'd do this, so I agreed to say what he told me."

Three weeks later on 16 February, nearly eight months after she was taken from her home, judges ruled that Farah's marriage had not been registered properly and was therefore invalid.
She was saved thanks to a technicality - and reunited with her family.
Farah hugs her sister outside court

image captionFarah hugs one of her sisters outside the court

Even when abducted children are rescued, their ordeal is often far from over. In many cases threats are made to abduct them again, or kill family members, and the trauma goes on.

This is what happened in the case of Maria Shahbaz, a 14-year-old Christian girl, who managed to escape after being kidnapped and forced to marry her abductor. She and her family have since been forced to go into hiding following repeated death threats.

In an effort to help Maria, a 12,500-name petition organised by the UK-based charity, Aid to the Church in Need, was recently handed in to the UK government. Signed by more than 30 British parliamentarians, including bishops, peers and MPs, it calls for her to be granted asylum.
Aid to the Church in Need's Spokesman, John Pontifex, says the situation facing many abducted girls and their families in Pakistan has become desperate.

"The trauma these children go through is often compounded by the threats they and their families face after being freed from their abductors. For some, like Maria, asylum in the UK is their only hope of safety."

Pakistan's prime minister, the former cricketer Imran Khan, has ordered an investigation into forced conversion of religious minorities in the predominantly Muslim country.
His special representative on religious harmony, Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi, recently stated: "Forced marriages, forced conversion of religion and abduction of underage girls of other religions in the name of marriages, will not be tolerated."

However, Asif's experience with the police suggests that there is a long way to go. He has pledged to continue his efforts to get the three men accused of abducting his daughter prosecuted.
Farah, now 13, is overjoyed to be at home again, and is recovering from the trauma of what happened to her with the aid of a psychologist. She fervently hopes that action will finally be taken to spare other girls the same fate.
"I pray that God will protect all children in Pakistan, that he will watch over them all."


welcome back.

giphy.gif


where would we be without you
 
Ask any India Muslim member out here if he can confirm any forceful 'ghar wapsi' in India. @jamahir

On the other hand we saw what happened at Hindu temple building site in Islamabad.

Difference.
I dont have ask em I have seen it all on YT mate..

And what happened there was wrong but also in favour of Hindus as they were gonna get the temple where it was necessity...

Difference as I told before is here attackers are not backed by govt
 
Ask any India Muslim member out here if he can confirm any forceful 'ghar wapsi' in India. @jamahir

Well, this article says :
A senior Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader claimed here on Saturday that the right-wing organisation “reconverted” 25,000 Muslims and Christians to Hinduism in 2018. VHP secretary general Milind Parande said drives for reconversion, which the Hindutva outfit calls “ghar-wapsi” or coming back to the “parent faith”, were being held regularly across the country.

“25,000 Muslims and Christians were reconverted in 2018,” he said, adding that figures for 2019 were yet to be compiled.


And this article says :
We have successfully accomplished two events of ghar wapasi after Yogiji became the chief minister,” Tripathi said. “I am in touch with about 100 more Muslims who have shown inclination to get back to Hinduism. You will hear of more such cases in the time to come.”

Tripathi insisted that the conversions were voluntary. “Though Surendra Kumar brought these Muslims to the temple and I organised ghar wapasi ceremonies, there was no element of force in it,” he said. “We organised ghar wapasi because they expressed their desire to become Hindus.”


So these converted and converting Muslims may have done so either because of them being under social pressure or seeing better socio-economic opportunity in a state now under Yogi.

There are other similar numbers and events that can be found through Google maharaj.
 
More nonsense excuses. The society is heavily rigged against the minorities, there is no denying it. It is not the powerful or the system or some fringe elements or some foreign hand responsible for their miserable situation. It is the regular Pakistani, you and I. The issue is not the pervasive injustice and/or lack of justice in the country, it is your deliberate apathy and complete disregard of their misery. The exact reason why bastards such as these are so fearless in committing these crimes against these helpless minorities. You can't bring yourself to admitting the systemic injustice and discrimination exacted upon your own brothers and sisters let alone post a statement condemning the abduction and rape of a minor. Instead you made it a point to brush it off as if it was nothing. The hypocrisy then is that you would have no problem going on rabid rants against the very same minorities as soon as a Dane sitting thousands of miles away does something against your liking.




Hogwash. The injustice against the minorities stems from the societal bias and apathy against them. As is clearly evident from your posts. The extent of injustice faced by minorities is exponentially more than anything the majority has ever had to face.



Do tell me if your response to any of those cases was "Meh.....there's injustice every where. So what?"




"The majority" not "the majority of people".



No they do not. How can you even post that?

You and I never had our economic extent limited by our religion, never had our social extent limited by our religion, never feared to have our places of worship burned down just because, were never told to leave the country because it was not ours, never feared to be murdered with impunity, never feared for our women to be abducted with impunity, never feared for what we did or did not say, were never looked down upon for our religion, were never made to answer or pay for something that a man from the opposite end of the planet did or did not say, were never forced to convert, were never forced any limits on the practice or preaching of our religion, and never had any gross injustice against us brushed aside as nothing.

How many Pakistanis have been denied economic opportunities because of a lack of political connections or ability to pay bribes?

Nobody has ever been refused employment because they are of the wrong caste or are muhajir?

I take it the TTP suicide bombings on sunni masjids don't count? The attacks on Data dardar or the darbar of lal shabaz calandar? You realise the biggest victims of terrorism in this countrt were pukhtuns living in KPK where Funnily enough they are the ethnic and religious majority.

I take it you've never heard of women being kidnapped or raped in Pakistan? The motorway incident earlier this year doesn't count for example?

How many shias felt nervous going into masjids during the last 20 years?

Your last point is utterly farcical. Nobody who is a sunni Muslim in Pakistan has struggled to get justice from the criminal justice system?!

It's beyond ridiculous. Nobody is denying minorities face discrimination because of thier religion, but nearly everyone in Pakistan has faced discrimination for one reason or another. A couple of years ago a sunni boy cut off his own hand fearing he'd be lynched for blasphemy. How different was his fear than anything a religious minority might face? Such acts happen because of the general lawless of the state.

I live a safe life in Britain not because British people are lovely tolerant hippy liberals, but because the writ of the state is enforced, the law is enforced.
 
I live a safe life in Britain not because British people are lovely tolerant hippy liberals, but because the writ of the state is enforced, the law is enforced.
That! Europeans don't like Muslims that much (ok, studies show that Germans hate gypsies more, but this is a story for another time) but there are laws in place that protect us from being harrased or attacked. And those laws are enforced!
 
Abducted, shackled and forced to marry at 12
By Mike Thomson
BBC News



View attachment 723631



Farah, a 12-year-old Christian girl, says she was taken from her home in Pakistan last summer, shackled, forced to convert to Islam and made to marry her kidnapper. It's a fate estimated to befall hundreds of young Christian, Hindu and Sikh women and children in the country each year.


On 25 June, Farah was at home in Faisalabad, Pakistan's third most populous city, with her grandfather, three brothers and two sisters when they heard knocking on their front door. She remembers her grandfather going to open it. Then three men burst in, grabbed Farah and forced her into a van outside.

They warned the family that if they tried to get her back "they'd make us regret it", says Farah's father, Asif, who was at work at the time.
Asif went to the nearest police station to report the crime - even providing the name of one of the abductors, whom Farah's grandfather had recognised - but he says the officers showed little interest in helping.

"They were very unco-operative and refused to register the crime. Not only that but they pushed me around and verbally abused me."
Despite repeated complaints to the police it was three months before they finally registered the incident. And even then they took no action.

During this time, 12-year-old Farah, who'd been driven 70 miles (110km) to a house in the nearby city of Hafizabad, says she was raped, shackled and treated like a slave.
"I was chained most of the time and ordered to clean the abductor's home as well as take care of the animals in the yard outside. It was terrible," she says.
"They'd put chains on my ankles, and tied me with a rope. I tried to cut the rope and get the chains off, but I couldn't manage it. I prayed every night, saying, 'God, please help me.'"

There were about two million Christians in Pakistan at the time of the last census, just over 1% of the total population.

According to human rights organisations as many as 1,000 Christian, Hindu and Sikh girls are abducted each year. Many of them are forced to convert to Islam, because it is widely believed in Pakistan that marriages under the age of 16 are acceptable under Sharia law if both of those marrying are Muslim. And this is what happened in Farah's case: she was forced to convert, then married by her abductor.

The National Council of Churches in Pakistan (NCCP) says the number of such abductions is increasing.

"It's hundreds, hundreds, many girls, many girls. This crime is committed by many people, and the authorities don't do anything," says the NCCP's general secretary, Bishop Victor Azariah.
Farah's desperately worried father, Asif, sought help from his local church, which then organised legal aid for the family.
In early December, after five months of desperate lobbying for the abductor to be arrested and for Farah to be set free, police finally took action.

"Four police came to the abductor's house and told people there that the court had ordered that I must come with them to a police station," says Farah.
On 5 December, her case came before Faisalabad's District and Sessions Courts and the magistrate sent her to a shelter for women and children, while further investigations were carried out.
The shackles on Farah's ankles left wounds that needed bandaging's ankles left wounds that needed bandaging

image captionThe shackles on Farah's ankles left wounds that took time to heal
But once again there was bad news.

While the family waited for a final decision from the courts, police told Farah's father they were dropping their investigation - because Farah said that she had agreed to both the marriage and the conversion.

Farah then repeated this in court on 23 January. But court officials were suspicious that she may have been coerced into making the statement - and Farah says this was indeed the case.
"I said this because the abductor told me that if I didn't he'd first kill me, then murder my father, followed by my brothers and sisters. My whole family. I was really afraid that he'd do this, so I agreed to say what he told me."

Three weeks later on 16 February, nearly eight months after she was taken from her home, judges ruled that Farah's marriage had not been registered properly and was therefore invalid.
She was saved thanks to a technicality - and reunited with her family.
Farah hugs her sister outside court

image captionFarah hugs one of her sisters outside the court

Even when abducted children are rescued, their ordeal is often far from over. In many cases threats are made to abduct them again, or kill family members, and the trauma goes on.

This is what happened in the case of Maria Shahbaz, a 14-year-old Christian girl, who managed to escape after being kidnapped and forced to marry her abductor. She and her family have since been forced to go into hiding following repeated death threats.

In an effort to help Maria, a 12,500-name petition organised by the UK-based charity, Aid to the Church in Need, was recently handed in to the UK government. Signed by more than 30 British parliamentarians, including bishops, peers and MPs, it calls for her to be granted asylum.
Aid to the Church in Need's Spokesman, John Pontifex, says the situation facing many abducted girls and their families in Pakistan has become desperate.

"The trauma these children go through is often compounded by the threats they and their families face after being freed from their abductors. For some, like Maria, asylum in the UK is their only hope of safety."

Pakistan's prime minister, the former cricketer Imran Khan, has ordered an investigation into forced conversion of religious minorities in the predominantly Muslim country.
His special representative on religious harmony, Tahir Mehmood Ashrafi, recently stated: "Forced marriages, forced conversion of religion and abduction of underage girls of other religions in the name of marriages, will not be tolerated."

However, Asif's experience with the police suggests that there is a long way to go. He has pledged to continue his efforts to get the three men accused of abducting his daughter prosecuted.
Farah, now 13, is overjoyed to be at home again, and is recovering from the trauma of what happened to her with the aid of a psychologist. She fervently hopes that action will finally be taken to spare other girls the same fate.
"I pray that God will protect all children in Pakistan, that he will watch over them all."


how sad .
welcome back.

View attachment 723668

where would we be without you

ridiculous and heartless reaction on abduction of a poor 12 year old masihi girl .
 
I don't know why Pakistanis are in denial of this. Sindh is a total shithole comparable to poor african countries courtesy of Bhutto. Most people here are from Islamabad/Lahore/North Punjab or overseas Pakistanis and can't imagine what conditions Sindhis live in until they see for themselves. Once you've actually been there and experienced how life is then you start to believe these stories.
Agreed, I am a Karachiite and travelling to Punjab and Islamabad is like entering a different country at this point. Different infrastructure, different facilities, and rapid growth.
In Sindh, Karachi (only a few parts of it) are in a good condition and livable, while the rest of the entire province is a shithole.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom