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Was Jinnah secular or not?

But it is what is we have to evolve in slow pace change is inevitable things cannot remain in the current status quo forever

You can trying your hand at Evolution

but explain that to Kashmiris who chant Pakistan ka Matlab Kia La Ilahah Illallah that they are struggling for a secular country.

You have to understand that the Muslims of India like Jamaat-e-Islami were very anti-Jinnah and were totally opposed to the creation of Pakistan. They see Jinnah as the spoiler of their dream of making India one of the Khilafats. Leaders like Abul Kalam Azad were strongest supporters of Khilafat Movement.

So Hindu Congress leaders always needed to consider the sentiments of the Muslims of India while framing the party position and policies.

There is no clergy system in Islam. The Persian nobility and brahmin converts are fooling Indians
 
There is no clergy system in Islam. The Persian nobility and brahmin converts are fooling Indians

Are you saying that a Brahman convert called Sir Allama Iqbal took the Muslims of subcontinent for a ride?

Or

A Pious Maulana Sayyid Abul Kalam Azad took the Muslims of subcontinent for a ride?

Or

Both of them did?
 
You don't realise just how well crafted this statement is. It single handedly undoes any remnant of the assertion that Jinnah was in any way a rigid Islamist.

We Muslims are a nation (not because we are an Islamic state or an Islamist state) but because we happen to be adherents of Islam, binding us together and giving us no chance of survival in a hindutva state.

Religion is not merely a set of beliefs and moral values but a code of practical behaviour as well (I.e. it is NOT a rigid unicameral set of commands but it should guide our behaviour in a practical sense, requiring nuance and interpretation to allow practical application of the aforementioned beliefs and values).

It's telling that he didn't simply say: we are an Islamic state and we abide strictly by shariah.

He said something different.

Please brother, request not to use thise recent and invented word Islamist. It means nothing and is only meant to stifly Muslims in the political realm.

By virtue of us being Muslims and ruling our nation, many find in unpalatable. They feel 'how come Muslims are not subservient to Non-Muslims?' A free, educated, and strong Muslim is a threat to their established order.

Jamaat-e-Islami were very anti-Jinnah

Maududi changed his mind and admitted he was wrong. Today JI is very nationalistic, and even raises volunteers for Pak army, in case of war.

Are you saying that a Brahman convert called Sir Allama Iqbal took the Muslims of subcontinent for a ride?

He was not a convert. His ancestors were. Even the first Muslims were converts from paganism, Christianity, or Judaism.
 
Only Indians?
Iqbal says its a universal phenomenon. He was vehemently opposed to any sort of a clergy apart from humanism
Are you saying that a Brahman convert called Sir Allama Iqbal took the Muslims of subcontinent for a ride?

Or

A Pious Maulana Sayyid Abul Kalam Azad took the Muslims of subcontinent for a ride?

Or

Both of them did?

If they claimed anything for themselves they did. Iqbal educated his children which was his obligation to the kin. None of Jinnah, Liaquat and Iqbals kin claim rights by their mention

Jinnah never claimed an inch for his service to mankind in south asia and taught his fellow man the same when Liaquat was assassinated by ethno fascists, the Nawab died penniless.

I don't know about Kalam. Exploitation is means of survival in India
 
brother, request not to use thise recent and invented word Islamist.
I'll agree in as much as it being a word that could arbitrarily be interpreted in a neutral manner but has evolved linguistically to be misused for negative connotations in routine discourse. It's unfortunately difficult to find an alternative to describe that which it is commonly perceived - rightly or erroneously - to describe.
 
You don't realise just how well crafted this statement is. It single handedly undoes any remnant of the assertion that Jinnah was in any way a rigid Islamist.

We Muslims are a nation (not because we are an Islamic state or an Islamist state) but because we happen to be adherents of Islam, binding us together and giving us no chance of survival in a hindutva state.

Religion is not merely a set of beliefs and moral values but a code of practical behaviour as well (I.e. it is NOT a rigid unicameral set of commands but it should guide our behaviour in a practical sense, requiring nuance and interpretation to allow practical application of the aforementioned beliefs and values).

It's telling that he didn't simply say: we are an Islamic state and we abide strictly by shariah.

He said something different.
lzzz we don't give your own meanings to the words of other people --- They said what they said, we don't need interpretations.

I can guarantee you, the tiny liberal/secular section will even have problems with these objectives of Dir and the reason he wasn't allowed to work.

You are a learned man, but just to add to your information, there's no such thing as rigid Islam or liberal Islam-- Islam is Islam, we don't need interpretations by liberals or rigids according to their personal desires.

Other issue he was too old and dying how can you leave a legacy for a young nation free from imperialist yoke when death was knocking on his door and rest of compatriots were mediocre at best sigh



If only Jinnah was young military officer like Ataturk or Political Commissar like Stalin with steel's of balls we could have been in a different place
if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
 
Please understand that I am not using the word liberal in the connotation that it has acquired in current Pakistani discourse. I am quite flabbergasted that a well read person such as yourself believes that Jinnah fits in with the profile of these other leaders. Maudidi was a vehement critic of Jinnah and the Pakistan Movement. If they truly came from the same mould, Maudidi would not have accused Jinnah of creating a secular or a non religious state.

He recanted his negative views. People can be wrong too you know. Quaid was once the ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity.

Maulana Maududi also produced the most nationalistic and loyal scholars in the form of Shabbir Ahmad Usmani and Dr. Israr Ahmad.

He gave Pakistan a new purpose after partition, to instill Islam in every level in Pakistan.

Try to look beyond liberal media which tries to paint him as a caricature. He was a complex and scholarly personality, who had the interests of Muslims at heart.

Please explain why Maudidi is disparaging Jinnah and Pakistan Movement, if they were all cut from the same cloth, and wanted to establish the same sort of government as each other. Did Maudidi misunderstand Jinnah's motives? There is a clear contradiction there of some sort. What is it?

They were both modernists. It is a broad category. These are Islamic scholars and politicians who views that traditional role of ulema as negative.

EDIT: I want to clarify further that I believe Jinnah and this other group of "Liberal Muslims" as being democratic in essence, and wanting to establish a democratic state for Muslims of the subcontinent. The main gripe that some of the Ulama had against him was his insistence on this mattter, whilst they believed in a theocratic state where the Ulama had the final say in all political and religious matters, something akin to the Mullah rule in Iran. Maudidi was of the latter group, hence his opposition.

As Maulana Maududi believed, the ulema were corrupt and had lost focus. So no, he did not solely speak for ulema like JUH.

All Pakistanis wanted a theocratic state, but we had no qualms with it coming in the form of a democracy with a constitution. I mean Pakistan is formed on the basis of Islam and Muslim identity.

The disconnect some people have is trying to push a narrative that Quaid was not religious, no, he was a deeply devout Muslim who also knew the best way to fight for the rights and aspirations of Muslims.

All the values which he pushed, such as protection for minorities and women, were Islamic. Regression is what led some Indian ulema to reject him.

Maulana Maududi had difficulties with the concept of nationhood and Islam. He also worried about the Mslims left behind in India. All differences were made moot when partition violence started, then he himself had to flee mobs.

And yet India declares jinnah as some Islamist maniac who dismembered a secular nation to please Islamist designs... Nope. Hindustan is Hindustan, a unique phenomenon, secular when advertising itself but religiously against jinnah and his madrassa state whenever discussing Pakistan over a dinner table. I've been party to these discussions so I'm aware of the dichotomy of personalities India suffers with.

Quaid e Azam set the nation on the right path, which is moderation and modernity, much the same way as Prophet Muhammad saws had done.

In his time also, Prophet Muhammad saws was viewed as radical for advocating rights of the poor, slaves, women, and orphans. Makkans derided him constantly for believing in equality.
 
lzzz we don't give your own meanings to the words of other people --- They said what they said, we don't need interpretations.

I can guarantee you, the tiny liberal/secular section will even have problems with these objectives of Dir and the reason he wasn't allowed to work.

You are a learned man, but just to add to your information, there's no such thing as rigid Islam or liberal Islam-- Islam is Islam, we don't need interpretations by liberals or rigids according to their personal desires.


if wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
Tafsir?
 
I'll agree in as much as it being a word that could arbitrarily be interpreted in a neutral manner but has evolved linguistically to be misused for negative connotations in routine discourse. It's unfortunately difficult to find an alternative to describe that which it is commonly perceived - rightly or erroneously - to describe.

Ulema of India were aloof from Islam and content to live a meager existence. They had become absolutely useless slaves. Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan tried to reform Muslims, they derided him. There were people who did not like Allama Iqbal. Then Quaid came, they made takfir on him. Maududi also was declared too different.

Today they deride Pakistan and Pakistanis to make the Hindu ruling elite of India happy.

This is not Islam, this is idiocy.

I'll agree in as much as it being a word that could arbitrarily be interpreted in a neutral manner but has evolved linguistically to be misused for negative connotations in routine discourse. It's unfortunately difficult to find an alternative to describe that which it is commonly perceived - rightly or erroneously - to describe.

Islamism is a weaponized word used to tarnish any group of Muslims engaged in political activities, from Imran Khan and Erdogan to Hamas, Iranians, and Hezbollah.
 
Ulema of India were aloof from Islam and content to live a meager existence. They had become absolutely useless slaves. Sir Sayyid Ahmad Khan tried to reform Muslims, they derided him. There were people who did not like Allama Iqbal. Then Quaid came, they made takfir on him. Maududi also was declared too different.

Today they deride Pakistan and Pakistanis to make the Hindu ruling elite of India happy.

This is not Islam, this is idiocy.
Yes I get your point now. It's a total fakery in a sense.
 
He wasn't really secular. I would call him a "Liberal Muslim", a group of British era educated Muslims from the subcontinent who were clever enough to realise that modern education served as a gateway to political freedom in a country dominated by British and Hindu elites. Sir Syed Ahmad Khan was perhaps the most iconic of this group, and one that got the ball rolling. They were also vehemently opposed by the orthodox clergy for their openness to new ideas.

Unfortunately, we have seen very few of the same types of Liberal Muslims in Pakistan, otherwise this country would not have slid down the path of religious extremism as it did.

Yeah unfortunately we haven't been able to find a balance the urban bougouise or burger class wants everything to be like globo homo west but the reactionary clerics are just as bad they prefer stagnation and just backwardness in thinking not good for a volatile country like Pakistan
 

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