Intelligence Report: "My Stand is with Pakistan"

[jaibi]

I'd just like to add that I don't get today's world anymore. With so many problems becoming more and more troublesome around the world why are the war drums thumping and those too for a region that's suffered so much already.

 

[El Sidd]

What is that even supposed to mean? It's a simple question - do you favor attacking, vilifying and questioning the loyalty of an entire demographic, over the actions of a few, or not?

No and i have made it clear anyone doing that is only adding fuel to the fire.

Those being recruited, Sunni or Shia, belong to a range of socio-economic strata. They belong to a range of ethnic and cultural backgrounds. The only common denominator is that they are being exploited by religious extremists for ideological conflict.

And if 'mis-governance' and 'socio-economic issues' are going to be your justification for recruitment, then that applies to ALL sides.

I cannot say mis governance when a State is recruiting them for in official capacity giving them names and flags right beside the country's own armed forces.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I agree with you that Pakistanis going abroad to fight in militant/terrorist organizations is a huge problem, regardless of sect. These individuals will return after having participated in who knows what kinds of combat and atrocities, and we don't want those kinds of people setting up local militant/terrorist cells in Pakistan.

But that said, the fact remains that the operations of Zainabeyoun has no DIRECT impact on Pakistan. These people are not setting off bombs in Pakistan or carrying out suicide attacks in Pakistan - that's what I mean by perceived negative domestic impact. You simply cannot compare the death and destruction wreaked INSIDE Pakistan by the TTP/ISIS/JuA etc with the Zainabeyoun.

And I have no love lost for Iran given their statements and actions with respect to Pakistan., just like I have no love lost for the Emiratis and their verbal attacks on Pakistan after Pakistan refused to participate in Yemen (From where the UAE themselves ran with their tails between their legs).

I have my views on any Pakistani going abroad to fight under foreign governments. There is no justification at all. It cause national embarrassment.


However, I noticed, you conveniently ignored the elephant in room in my previous reply to you. The Iran-India nexus of terror against Pakistan which manifested in the physical form of Kulbahsan Yadev. You ignoring it, is what I was referring to that Shias do no curse Iran in public for its negative role. That is exactly what cause sheer frustration among the rest of Pakistanis. Why it is so damn hard to call spade a spade?

 

[El Sidd]

Now that is Terrorism Apologetics 101.

The only common denominator is that they are being exploited by religious extremists for ideological conflict.

You simply cannot compare the death and destruction wreaked INSIDE Pakistan by the TTP/ISIS/JuA etc with the Zainabeyoun.

It seems to me you have not yet made up your mind and further complicate the matter by providing an insight into the fabled " Good Taliban Bad Taliban " rhetoric of strategic depth.

 

[Genghis khan1]

Just watch these two videos Below and dont bother with the rest of the Thread

You Ignored my Request. ok settle down, grab a drink or two because its a long one


Nothing has threatened and harmed us more than the scourge of TTP and its affiliates.

they tried breaking our will through their attacks on schools, shrines, markets and places of worship. they made videos of beheading of soldiers and civilians but we remained defiant and our resolve persevered.

today they are reduced to dust and their remnants are hiding like rats in Pakistan and Afghanistan.


Pakistan has a unique make-up of ethnicity and faith. predominantly Muslims we have the Most Sunnis after Malaysia and the most Shias after Iran and this unique combination has seen the tests of times right from the times of Zia's Islamization to fight the super powers proxy war in Afghanistan, Iran -Iraq war, our own war in tribal areas, Sawat and rest of Pakistan to war in Syria and Yemen.


where others failed, their armies disbanded, we rallied and we united. our country is represented by both faiths in politics, media, showbiz, philosophers, armed forces and sports. what was a weakness for countries like Syria and Iraq proved to be a unifying force instead just like Jinnah and Iqbal.


so my dears, current Iran and American conflict has no chance to disrupt our social, political or religious fabric. those that were all smug and full of themselves to turn our constitution square into Khooni chowk of Sawat are defeated.


dont exaggerate or panic over speeches of some shia clerics they are in no league of Abdul Aziz or red mosque or Sufi Mohammad of Sawat. they both ate dirt and licked their spits. And so will anyone else who will bring our country's security at risk.


our focus should remain on those who went to join Daesh but after its routing have returned back and have recently committed an atrocity in a Mosque in Quetta.



whats with the title you say?

its an extract from an intelligence report that has been purposefully shared with me knowing well that I am part of the team and constant poster on this forum and I knew what I was supposed to do


so this is about a very private shia gathering of elders in Karachi which had representation from other parts of the country there were opinion makers and community leaders with large following. the talk moved to possible involvement of Pakistan in Iran- American war through pressure from America and Saudis and what side the Pakistani shias must take and one gentleman declared that he will stand with Pakistan and to that there was a unanimous roar of Approval and Nara e Haideris.


its outcome has been corroborated multiple times at similar gatherings and gossips across the country despite few rants by some shia leaders who are on Iranian stipend just like their Deobandi counterparts who support their big bellies and lavish SUV's through Arabian stipends.

my footnote is. I hope Iran is not invaded because it is our brotherly neighbor and shares a relatively calm border and if the conflict does start then we cant remain neutral and we will have to take a side and that side should be with Pakistan. we must do and say what suits us best. if we keep worrying about Saudis, Americans and Iranians then we will only end up hurting ourselves and wont get any sympathy from them either.

Few observations and comments.

1. Agree on the point , that Pakistan should not jump in if US decided to directly attack Iran. Even if Iran loses ( which they will) and there is a regime change, Iranian will remain butt hurt about Pakistan roles for generations to come.

2. Iran supported anti Pakistan elements in Afghanistan, voted against Kashmir in OIC for India. Solimani hosted khulbashan.

3. So anything outside Iranian land is a fair game, Iranian have no business in Syria, Iraq and GCC. If GCC offer us good enough deal and Petro dollars, we should help them out.

4. Your suggestion is that, Pakistan just stand on the side as a useless spectacle and do nothing. My suggestion is, Pakistan is thirsty. Pakistan should grab some of these Lemons and make lemonade out of it.

If you stand with Pakistan, than make right decisions at the right time. Pakistan can’t please everyone. Don’t let person feelings and biases influence your thought process. National interest first.

Simple observation:

Reading through your post and based on your forum history, I have noticed, you have biased against deobandies n Ahl Hadith (wahabis). You have strong inclination towards baralvi and hold soft corner for Shia.

 

[StormBreaker]

Iran meddling in Middle east has direct bearing on us. The creation of Zainabyon is not a myth. It will pain, and frustrate the hell out of me and likeminded to see my countrymen becoming cannon fodder for the geopolitical agenda of Iran.

Closer to home, the Kulbashan Yadev episode is an open book for those who want call spade a spade. Yadev was not operating out of thin air. Iran was his and his network base. Unless one doesn't believe own state institution, that is the fact. Huge number of Pakistani were killed, injured by this network operating from Iranian soil, including, the Shia Hazara community. Uzair Baluch also happen to be Iranian national. While I give you the GCC funding of madrassa and its effects, Iranian sponsorship of terrorism in Pakistan is more direct.

As I said, we need to see our Shia brothers and sisters to start speaking out and calling spade a spade.

On point

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

However, I noticed, you conveniently ignored the elephant in room in my previous reply to you. The Iran-India nexus of terror against Pakistan which manifested in the physical form of Kulbahsan Yadev. You ignoring it, is what I was referring to that Shias do no curse Iran in public for its negative role. That is exactly what cause sheer frustration among the rest of Pakistanis. Why it is so damn hard to call spade a spade?

Perhaps you don't see me criticizing Iran in the same breath because you choose not to see it due to your prejudice against Shia.

"And I have no love lost for Iran given their statements and actions with respect to Pakistan".

Beyond that, Indian espionage activities through Iran pale in comparison to their activities through Afghanistan. The day the Pakistani State and military openly condemn and paint Iran in the same light as Afghanistan, in terms of State sponsoring of terrorism in Pakistan, that day you'll see me criticize the Iranians the same way that I criticize the Afghans.

No and i have made it clear anyone doing that is only adding fuel to the fire.

Then what is the argument about? If we agree that neither the Pakistani Shia nor the Pakistani Sunni should be attacked or vilified or have their loyalty questioned due to the actions of a few, then we agree.

I cannot say mis governance when a State is recruiting them for in official capacity giving them names and flags right beside the country's own armed forces.

How are they being recruited by Iran? Manipulation of religious ideology.

How are they being recruited by TTP, ISIS, AQ, LeJ, JuA? Manipulation of religious ideology.

What's the primary demographic that ends up being recruited? Poor Pakistanis.

As I said, we need to see our Shia brothers and sisters to start speaking out and calling spade a spade.

Wanted to address this specifically - this is no different a statement than that used by right-wing Islamophobes in the West that demand that 'Muslims need to start speaking out and call a spade a spade".

Sorry, but no. It is not the job of Muslims in general to get a certificate and satisfy the demands of the Isalamophobes in 'condemning' Islamic terrorism, and it is not the job of the Pakistani Shia to satisfy YOU and others like you in establishing their patriotism.

 

[El Sidd]

Then what is the argument about? If we agree that neither the Pakistani Shia nor the Pakistani Sunni should be attacked or vilified or have their loyalty questioned due to the actions of a few, then we agree.

The argument is difference in treatment of the two by the Pakistani governments.

How are they being recruited by Iran? Manipulation of religious ideology.

How are they being recruited by TTP, ISIS, AQ, LeJ, JuA? Manipulation of religious ideology.

What's the primary demographic that ends up being recruited? Poor Pakistanis.

Actually NO !!

It is a falsified belief that Iran employs them and pays them. Iran only invests the money it gets from Pakistan as religious tax back to the recruiting.

Primary demographics of recruit seem to be heavily focused on ethnic/tribal groups involved in Afghanistan which make up the Northern Alliance. If you do a little research, you would not be grabbing sand by fistfuls on the thread.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The argument is difference in treatment of the two by the Pakistani governments.

How is the Pakistani government treating the Pakistani Shia and the Pakistani Sunni differently?

Actually NO !!

It is a falsified belief that Iran employs them and pays them. Iran only invests the money it gets from Pakistan as religious tax back to the recruiting.

Primary demographics of recruit seem to be heavily focused on ethnic/tribal groups involved in Afghanistan which make up the Northern Alliance. If you do a little research, you would not be grabbing sand by fistfuls on the thread.

I talk about apples and you bring up oranges - I never said anything about how the Iranians pay XYZ. Let me repeat:
How are they being recruited by Iran? Manipulation of religious ideology.

How are they being recruited by TTP, ISIS, AQ, LeJ, JuA? Manipulation of religious ideology.

What's the primary demographic that ends up being recruited? Poor Pakistanis (if you disagree, please explain how).

 

[El Sidd]

How is the Pakistani government treating the Pakistani Shia and the Pakistani Sunni differently?

I am not talking about sunni or shia. I am only saying treatment of the said groups is different by the Pakistani government and you are mistaken to believe Iran only invests in one 'sect' for recruiting.

I talk about apples and you bring up oranges - I never said anything about how the Iranians pay XYZ. Let me repeat:
How are they being recruited by Iran? Manipulation of religious ideology.

How are they being recruited by TTP, ISIS, AQ, LeJ, JuA? Manipulation of religious ideology.

What's the primary demographic that ends up being recruited? Poor Pakistanis (if you disagree, please explain how).

Being poor is a relative term in Pakistan.

Are you suggesting that there are fundamental issues in religion which makes recruitment for violence easier? Why would you blame Shia and Sunni faith so brazenly like that when there are political motives than religious.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am not talking about sunni or shia. I am only saying treatment of the said groups is different by the Pakistani government and you are mistaken to believe Iran only invests in one 'sect' for recruiting.

You need to be more specific then. Are you saying that the Pakistani State treats certain militant groups differently than others? Can you provide examples of these groups? We know, for example, that a much lighter approach is being taken in handling the Kashmir focused groups compared to the TTP.

Being poor is a relative term in Pakistan.

Are you suggesting that there are fundamental issues in religion which makes recruitment for violence easier? Why would you blame Shia and Sunni faith so brazenly like that when there are political motives than religious.

I'm going by the stated ideology/goals of these groups - they are a bastardization of religion. Much like the mobs manipulated by an ignorant clergy into massacring people over allegations of Blasphemy.

 

[El Sidd]

You need to be more specific then. Are you saying that the Pakistani State treats certain militant groups differently than others? Can you provide examples of these groups? We know, for example, that a much lighter approach is being taken in handling the Kashmir focused groups compared to the TTP.

Can you point me towards the urgency shown by the Pakistani government in this regard? This did not happen overnight and has been going on for best part of a decade and it was not me who did a press conference admitting that previously there has been a bias.

I'm going by the stated ideology/goals of these groups - they are a bastardization of religion. Much like the mobs manipulated by an ignorant clergy into massacring people over allegations of Blasphemy.

Religion's role in this is highly exaggerated. Most of the recruits as i said are from a region in Pakistan known to have tribal problems with their neighbours and are directly bring Afghan problems to homeland.

There are political and racial reasons for recruit and not solely religious.

 

[American Pakistani]

I am not talking about sunni or shia. I am only saying treatment of the said groups is different by the Pakistani government and you are mistaken to believe Iran only invests in one 'sect' for recruiting.



Being poor is a relative term in Pakistan.

Are you suggesting that there are fundamental issues in religion which makes recruitment for violence easier? Why would you blame Shia and Sunni faith so brazenly like that when there are political motives than religious.

Because most Pakistanis are poor and it is tempting to refuse the offer of money. Surprised that in a country where people sell kidney and what not for food, someone will be asking such question.

The bottom line is, we should not care about Iranian Saudi or any other gulfi politics. For us is Pakistan first and foremost. That doesn't mean we should go and start massacring Yemeni for Gulfies or Syrians for Iranis. Because we are civilized nation not a beast terrorists states like India or Israel.

 

[El Sidd]

Because most Pakistanis are poor and it is tempting to refuse the offer of money. Surprised that in a country where people sell kidney and what not for food, someone will be asking such question.

The bottom line is, we should not care about Iranian Saudi or any other gulfi politics. For us is Pakistan first and foremost. That doesn't mean we should go and start massacring Yemeni for Gulfies or Syrians for Iranis. Because we are civilized nation not a beast terrorists states like India or Israel.

Unless you have a confession of a recruit who says he did it for money, i cannot take your claim seriously.

Specially when 20bn USD hops across the border and invested back.

 

[H. Dawary]

Inevitably it will come down to a conflict. And it is not the faults of anyone, this is simply a contradiction of our human nature.

Politics and state institutions only delays the inevitable to a later time but the inevitable will happen.

Even if Pakistan or Afghanistan became completely secular and adopted all the cultural values of the west or east, there will eventually come a time when certain ideologies will resurface.

Right now in Afghanistan the Taliban will eventually come to power, and many Afghans blame Pakistan for the Taliban, however the truth really is that due to Pakistan this process is happening at a faster pace for something that is bound to happen with or without Pakistan.

The same will also occur in Pakistan at a later time, politicians can delay the inevitable as much as they want, but the inevitable will happen.

This is also occurring in Iran but in reverse, the move towards secularism and democracy, this same shift is also happening in Saudi, but a lot less slower.

Ultimately, certain ideologies will take root in societies until a certain amount of time, and that too will fade and something else will replace it little by little, until again it takes root. Only thing I hope that is prevented is the bloodshed that sometimes comes along with it. Hopefully certain wise men can see the changing tide and prepare for its coming instead of resisting it and allowing for bloodshed.