Intelligence Report: "My Stand is with Pakistan"

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is hard to do analysis since we have not seen terrorism reported in Pakistan as radical sunni extremism nor radical shia extremism. Unless provided with the data it is hard for me to comment on who has the lead in this sports. Maybe this is why Pakistan treats terrorism as to have no religious denomination or maybe it is time to change and notify these acts under labels of sunni extremism or shia extremism.

I don’t think it’s necessary to define them as Sunni or Shia terrorism. I was merely making a point that it’s unfair to criticize ANY Pakistani religious group in the manner that Shia are being criricized.

The vast majority of Pakistani Sunni & Shia are patriots and loyal to Pakistan. Criticize the militant/terrorist groups, not the entire sect or religion.

 

[El Sidd]

nothing is hard dear

make your top pick from Sawat peshawar karachi to pindi

If one sets out to prove a point, there is little one can do to change their minds. It seems people already have decided on their excuses on both sides of the camp.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

My two cents.

This whole issue and mutual frustrations are caused by one and only one source from both sides. It is the clergy.

It is these clergymen from both sides who corrupt the feeble minds at young age and mould their thinking in such a way that Arabs and Persians are taken as some sort of holly cows, depending on which sect one belong to. The reason, clergymen themselves are educated in Arab and Persian lands and under the influence of foreign agenda. This then trickle down to the rest. However, this "love" of Saudi Arabia among the Sunnis have gone down quite noticeably, specially in long chain of event that our nation suffered or made to suffer in post 9/11 and still continuing. However, on Shia side, in all honesty, there is still the soft corner for Iran. I have not come across any Shia I know, who publicly, curse Iran and what it has done in Muslim world, specially in ME.

Solution:

Cut that bloody umbilical cord which connects our clergy to Qom in Iran and similar institution in Saudi Arabia/GCC. We have got top notch Scholars from both schools of thoughts, we got home grown institutions, just consolidate them, build them into our own Qom and Similar Sunni seat of knowledge. There has to be one Imam, Pakistani Imam, and similar stature person from Sunni side. Their fatwas will be final, no ifs and buts. No foreign influence, everything home grown. Ofcourse it will require state to act and put a lot of money and resources in building such institution which can rival what Iran and Saudi Arabia got but the long term dividends are immense.

 

[El Sidd]

I don’t think it’s necessary to define them as Sunni or Shia terrorism. I was merely making a point that it’s unfair to criticize ANY Pakistani religious group in the manner that Shia are being criricized.

The vast majority of Pakistani Sunni & Shia are patriots and loyal to Pakistan. Criticize the militant/terrorist groups, not the entire sect or religion.

It is unnecessary but unwarranted too to denominate terrorism to a specific group based on their religious affiliation.

The criticism here i believe is state sponsored recruitment under the guise of religion which cannot be brushed aside by doing a comparative study of militant groups.

 

[xyxmt]

In my practical opinion travelling foreign lands, people talks, gives opinion. But when comes Pakistan they all stand togather. Who will see his or her mother suffer. Since last many years majority Pakistani play active role in Pakistani politics in there local circles. They raise money for cause and send millions in remittances to Pakistan . It is fact Pakistani play a very positive role for Pakistan in West. But, few loonies everywhere and they have disturb history in Pakistan.

Overseas Pakistanis don't count, they have totally different view points than those who are in Pakistan. In US, we Shia & Sunni used to pray together in Jamat, sometime Shia imam sometime Sunni....would you ever dare to do that in Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

However, this "love" of Saudi Arabia among the Sunnis have gone down quite noticeably, specially in long chain of event that our nation suffered or made to suffer in post 9/11 and still continuing. However, on Shia side, in all honesty, there is still the soft corner for Iran. I have not come across any Shia I know, who publicly, curse Iran and what it has done in Muslim world, specially in ME.

People change their views about various entities based on the impact those entities have on their lives. Iran's meddling in the Middle East has had little to no bearing on Pakistan for the most part, certainly no where close to the kind of impact groups like the TTP, LeJ, JuA etc have had, and the latter groups are often associated with Saudi/GCC funding of Madrassa's in Pakistan. So you're obviously going to have a stronger reaction against the Saudis/GCC than the Iranians because the perceived negative domestic impact of the former is much larger than the latter.

It is unnecessary but unwarranted too to denominate terrorism to a specific group based on their religious affiliation.

The criticism here i believe is state sponsored recruitment under the guise of religion which cannot be brushed aside by doing a comparative study of militant groups.

The individuals being recruited in both cases are being recruited for violent ideological conflicts. That's the only thing that matters. Whether recruitment is by the State or proxies/independent militant organizations, the end result is the same - Pakistanis being recruited for violent conflict.

The main difference is that, so far, the Iranian recruitment has been, for the most part, for conflicts outside of Pakistan, whereas the TTP/ISIS/AQ/LeJ/JuA recruitment has been, for the most part, for direct conflict with the Pakistani State.

If one sets out to prove a point, there is little one can do to change their minds. It seems people already have decided on their excuses on both sides of the camp.

One side is arguing that an entire demographic (Pakistani Shia in the current discussion) should not be attacked or have their loyalty questioned because a very small minority of them joined militant/terrorist organizations and engaged in conflicts in other countries - just like Pakistani Sunnis should not be attacked or have their loyalty questioned because a small minority of them joined militant/terrorist organizations and engaged in conflict both at home and abroad.

So you're either in the camp that refuses to attack an entire demographic based on the actions of a small minority or the camp that vilifies an entire demographic because of the actions of a small minority.

 

[El Sidd]

The individuals being recruited in both cases are being recruited for violent ideological conflicts. That's the only thing that matters. Whether recruitment is by the State or proxies/independent militant organizations, the end result is the same - Pakistanis being recruited for violent conflict.

The main difference is that, so far, the Iranian recruitment has been, for the most part, for conflicts outside of Pakistan, whereas the TTP/ISIS/AQ/LeJ/JuA recruitment has been, for the most part, for direct conflict with the Pakistani State.

It is a superimposition of propaganda to say one set of proxy is anti State and the other is pro State while being recruited by a STATE while the former is being accused of financial backing of multiple states.

I only object to put the two in the same category of interest as one has a STATE backing and the other is NOT.

The same illusion of strategic depth has already amassed 70000 bodies and looks like with a simple brush of 'secret meeting of allegiance' the case can be put aside.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is a superimposition of propaganda to say one set of proxy is anti State and the other is pro State while being recruited by a STATE while the former is being accused of financial backing of multiple states.

I only object to put the two in the same category of interest as one has a STATE backing and the other is NOT.

The same illusion of strategic depth has already amassed 70000 bodies and looks like with a simple brush of 'secret meeting of allegiance' the case can be put aside.

You're arguing semantics - the driving force behind recruitment (State or proxy) is extremist religious ideology, and almost no sect/denomination in the Muslim world is immune from having religion exploited to motivate participation in conflict.

 

[El Sidd]

One side is arguing that an entire demographic (Pakistani Shia in the current discussion) should not be attacked or have their loyalty questioned because a very small minority of them joined militant/terrorist organizations and engaged in conflicts in other countries - just like Pakistani Sunnis should not be attacked or have their loyalty questioned because a small minority of them joined militant/terrorist organizations and engaged in conflict both at home and abroad.

So you're either in the camp that refuses to attack an entire demographic based on the actions of a small minority or the camp that vilifies an entire demographic because of the actions of a small minority.

So you are saying that no matter what one group(Sunnis) says they are going to be wrong?

You have yet to to call recruitment by a state for proxy wars as terrorism. I assume it is being reserved for a later period?

You're arguing semantics - the driving force behind recruitment (State or proxy) is extremist religious ideology, and almost no sect/denomination in the Muslim world is immune from having religion exploited to motivate participation in conflict.

You are just downplaying the difference of being a state recruit and a recruit of mercenaries through mis-governance.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So you are saying that no matter what one group(Sunnis) says they are going to be wrong?

What is this 'one group (Sunnis)' saying exactly, before you put words in my mouth.

I said that an entire demographic shouldn't be attacked - are you saying that Sunnis believe in attacking and vilifying ALL (or a majority) of Shia over the actions of a few?

a recruit of mercenaries through mis-governance.

Now that is Terrorism Apologetics 101. The TTP, Al Qaeda, ISIS, LeJ, JuA are not the result of mis-governance. They are the result of extremist, hateful distortions of religion.

 

[El Sidd]

What is this 'one group (Sunnis)' saying exactly, before you put words in my mouth.

I said that an entire demographic shouldn't be attacked - are you saying that Sunnis believe in attacking and vilifying ALL (or a majority) of Shia over the actions of a few?

It is yet to be determined if motivation to join the camps is political/religious/ethnic in nature.

That one group is merely seeking equal treatment of crime as established by the state without being accused of marginalization and intolerance.

Now that is terrorism apologizing 101. The TTP, Al Qaeda, ISIS, LeJ, JuA are not the result of mis-governance. They are the result of extremist, hateful distortions of religion.

How is that terrorism apologizing when i said it is due to mis governance? If the government had fool proof method of discouraging any such recruitment, it would not have been possible to recruit them.

Ofcourse a State involved in recruitment has more tools at disposal than a rogue group of miscreants.

 

[Vortex]

Why are you taking this to religion again ?

My wish for Pakistan in Yemen was Boots to talk instead of boots to walk over yemenis or houthis.

Pakistan could have found an intermediate solution keeping your concern in line as we are well aware of how foreign powers invest in sectarianism.

sorry missed your reply.

Why I'm taking to religion again ? Simply because I saw how Pakistanis behaved in Pakistan when some cartoons insulting our Prophet were published in Netherland... It's very easy to ligth fire. Even if religion is only a cover.

By the way, when Saudis planned their ops in Yemen, they just added Pakistan in their list. As cannon fodder ?

I really don't know if we were already consulted prior to the announcement made by them or not.

Had they publically and formally asked us to help them, then why not. But I'm not aware of the formal request.

I could be wrong of course, because my knowledge is limited as i don't have full inofrmation of the events.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It is yet to be determined if motivation to join the camps is political/religious/ethnic in nature.

That one group is merely seeking equal treatment of crime as established by the state without being accused of marginalization and intolerance.

What is that even supposed to mean? It's a simple question - do you favor attacking, vilifying and questioning the loyalty of an entire demographic, over the actions of a few, or not?

How is that terrorism apologizing when i said it is due to mis governance? If the government had fool proof method of discouraging any such recruitment, it would not have been possible to recruit them.

Ofcourse a State involved in recruitment has more tools at disposal than a rogue group of miscreants.

Those being recruited, Sunni or Shia, belong to a range of socio-economic strata. They belong to a range of ethnic and cultural backgrounds. The only common denominator is that they are being exploited by religious extremists for ideological conflict.

And if 'mis-governance' and 'socio-economic issues' are going to be your justification for recruitment, then that applies to ALL sides.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

People change their views about various entities based on the impact those entities have on their lives. Iran's meddling in the Middle East has had little to no bearing on Pakistan for the most part, certainly no where close to the kind of impact groups like the TTP, LeJ, JuA etc have had, and the latter groups are often associated with Saudi/GCC funding of Madrassa's in Pakistan. So you're obviously going to have a stronger reaction against the Saudis/GCC than the Iranians because the perceived negative domestic impact of the former is much larger than the latter.

Iran meddling in Middle east has direct bearing on us. The creation of Zainabyon is not a myth. It will pain, and frustrate the hell out of me and likeminded to see my countrymen becoming cannon fodder for the geopolitical agenda of Iran.

Closer to home, the Kulbashan Yadev episode is an open book for those who want call spade a spade. Yadev was not operating out of thin air. Iran was his and his network base. Unless one doesn't believe own state institution, that is the fact. Huge number of Pakistani were killed, injured by this network operating from Iranian soil, including, the Shia Hazara community. Uzair Baluch also happen to be Iranian national. While I give you the GCC funding of madrassa and its effects, Iranian sponsorship of terrorism in Pakistan is more direct.

As I said, we need to see our Shia brothers and sisters to start speaking out and calling spade a spade.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Iran meddling in Middle east has direct bearing on us. The creation of Zainabyon is not a myth. It will pain, and frustrate the hell out of me and likeminded to see my countrymen becoming cannon fodder for the geopolitical agenda of Iran.

Closer to home, the Kulbashan Yadev episode is an open book for those who want call spade a spade. Yadev was not operating out of thin air. Iran was his and his network base. Unless one doesn't believe own state institution, that is the fact. Huge number of Pakistani were killed, injured by this network operating from Iranian soil, including, the Shia Hazara community. Uzair Baluch also happen to be Iranian national. While I give you the GCC funding of madrassa and its effects, Iranian sponsorship of terrorism in Pakistan is more direct.

As I said, we need to see our Shia brothers and sisters to start speaking out and calling spade a spade.

I agree with you that Pakistanis going abroad to fight in militant/terrorist organizations is a huge problem, regardless of sect. These individuals will return after having participated in who knows what kinds of combat and atrocities, and we don't want those kinds of people setting up local militant/terrorist cells in Pakistan.

But that said, the fact remains that the operations of Zainabeyoun has no DIRECT impact on Pakistan. These people are not setting off bombs in Pakistan or carrying out suicide attacks in Pakistan - that's what I mean by perceived negative domestic impact. You simply cannot compare the death and destruction wreaked INSIDE Pakistan by the TTP/ISIS/JuA etc with the Zainabeyoun.

And I have no love lost for Iran given their statements and actions with respect to Pakistan., just like I have no love lost for the Emiratis and their verbal attacks on Pakistan after Pakistan refused to participate in Yemen (From where the UAE themselves ran with their tails between their legs).