Zardari calls for unconditional talks with India

[blueoval79]

Now there we go again......no we are not going anywhere since hellfire was having such a hard time understanding why cant pakistan just hand over the people India desires, i just gave him the reason.



Dude many innocent Pakistanis lost their lives in that blast, is the news funny for you. I wonder if the news is equally funny for us when India talks about 26/11 and handing of the so called culprits.

An equal number of Indians lost life in the same blast...so I am not feeling happy for the loss of human life..its just that.....why do we have such disparity when it comes to your land and my land.......

Pakistan wants to try culprits who are Pakistani citizens in Pakistan courts (read: 26/11 terrorist attack planners) ...but Pakistan demands Culprits accused of attacks on India soil to be extradited to Pakistan so that they can be tried on Pakistan courts.....
Now if you want us to trust your law....why can't you trust our's.


That's funny........

 

[All-Green]

What I dont get is why GoP is hesitant to hand over the people India desires?

As it is, Indian Penal System is so notorious, it shall be years before anything tangible happens, and then too invariably technical blunders will lead to chanrges being droppped .....

dawood ibrahim is an example :

Mahesh Jethmalani Blog

Hellfire,

In my honest opinion the solid evidence against the key people may not be there besides speculative evidence and indirect implications...
Whereas within ones own country these are certainly legitimate enough to atleast pursue, detain individuals and do a traditional desi style "Chithar Parade" as well when the need arises...things change when the border changes...

That is what i think is causing a stand off...not to mention that if there is evidence, Pakistan itself would like to trial these people in court instead of simply handing them over to India...this is not only because of an aversion to handing over any prisoner to India but also because these rascals nearly caused Pakistan to enter in a War which by no means we wanted and therefore have to answer for many crimes here as well...

The way most terrorist cells operate these days there is mostly no clear trail and the agencies instead track, monitor and round up the groups or individuals who may have the capability to carry out a similar operation...in this case if India expects Pakistan to round up just those suspects which India feels maybe responsible, Pakistan would need solid evidence or atleast enough to make them go after those India deems responsible...i think there may not be enough for Pakistan but still it detained some individuals using temporary powers within the law (law pertaining to suspected public unrest)...the temporary powers are for limited duration and that is why Hafiz Saeed was released since GOP did not have enough evidence to convince the court..

Why GOP did not have enough evidence against Hafiz Saeed is not something any of us can talk with complete authority, i will say that maybe GOI needs to share more information and all the details...you will say that GOP needs to build a better case...but the bottom line is that both governments need to sit together and make each other understand their own problems and recommendations and then take it from there....The people do not need to witness more wars...3-4 previous wars and the current military arsenal of our countries are more than enough to realize that both countries would not go down without making the other suffer horribly and maybe permanently!

All i can say is that if indeed he isresponsible and enough evidence is made available to prosecute and convict him then hang them high!

I will say this also, much better to engage in dialogue nowadays and make progress on the many issues, as a consequence the ice shall break and the more difficult hurdles can also be overcome.

Just like Pakistan has taken time to realize the threats posed by such groups and is cracking down on them, maybe you guys need to realize that such a-holes actually want Pakistan to go to war with India or atleast be in a warlike posture...nothing breeds hatred more than war and that is what they are after...

 

[wtf]

Another bit of related news, this time from Gilani. Seems like only rediff is reporting this, so wait for confirmations.
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Pak, India should begin Composite Dialogue: Gilani: Rediff.com news

Pakistan Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani on Wednesday said Pakistan will offer the Indian leadership an "olive branch" to resume the bilateral Composite Dialogue as both countries cannot afford war.

"Pakistan and India faced common problems and it was in the interest of the whole region for the two nuclear powers to resume the dialogue which had stopped after last year's Mumbai attacks," Gilani said, while addressing students and faculty members of the army's Command and Staff College in Quetta.

However, he did not elaborate on what he meant by "olive branch". Pakistan Army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and senior military officials were also present on the occasion.

Gilani said Pakistan was fighting the war against terrorism for its own survival. The government started military operation in parts of Malakand division as a last option after militants challenged the writ of the government and wanted to disintegrate the country, despite the implementation of Islamic laws, he said.

The government will not tolerate anybody who casts an evil eye on the sovereignty of Pakistan and establishes a parallel government in the country, Gilani said. He said he was hopeful that the government would win the war against terror with the support of the people.

A "3R" strategy comprising relief, rehabilitation and reconstruction had been adopted to overcome challenges that emerged after the launching of military operations in Malakand, Gilani said.

Noting that the Pakistan government has allocated Rs 1 billion for the relief and rehabilitation of people displaced by the fighting, Gilani called on the world community to realise the suffering of Pakistan and help it overcome its financial and other problems.

Replying to a question, Gilani said Balochistan province is extremely important for Pakistan. The government has information about "foreign involvement" in the unrest in Balochistan and will collect more intelligence to take up the issue with concerned governments at an appropriate forum, he added.

The government has conveyed to the United States administration that a planned troop surge in Afghanistan could push militants southwards and destabilise Balochistan, Gilani said.

In response to another question, the premier said his government has conveyed to the US administration that drone attacks in Pakistan's tribal belt are counter-productive and creating problems for the democratic set-up.

"I am hopeful that the Obama administration will review its policy regarding drone attacks in the country," he said.

 

[Goodperson]

You are using two different terms which mean different things.
Stateless actor is someone like Bin Laden - he is no longer Saudi (his family and state have disowned him). A non-state actor is someone who acts without state support in another country. The term used to describe NGO's and such (it was an often used term for IMF in political science circles).
The way Pakistan uses the term is - A sort of a rebel, but one who attacks another sovereign, not their own.

(It might be true that with Pak consulate refusing to help Kasab he has become a true stateless actor).

AM is asserting that they were true "non state actors" and that they had no official support. Current Indian position is asking Pak government to prove it by jailing them. The right thing of course would be extradition, but a fair trial in Pakistan is what the position has come to.

My argument was about Kasab and how Pakistan conveniently branded him as stateless when it was proven beyond doubt that he was Pakistani. Irony is that it even denies Kasabs accomplices`were its citizen. So it seems Kasab was a superhuman who took training alone arranged his own finances and traveled on his own from Pakistan then surely he has descended from sky and hence is a Stateless actor.
One needs to accept how stateless actor is selectively used and Kasab is not Bin Laden or do you coin all antisocial elements, terrorist who do not have government support as Stateless ?

 

[King Julien]

My argument was about Kasab and how Pakistan conveniently branded him as stateless when it was proven beyond doubt that he was Pakistani. Irony is that it even denies Kasabs accomplices`were its citizen. So it seems Kasab was a superhuman who took training alone arranged his own finances and traveled on his own from Pakistan then surely he has descended from sky and hence is a Stateless actor.
One needs to accept how stateless actor is selectively used and Kasab is not Bin Laden or do you coin all antisocial elements, terrorist who do not have government support as Stateless ?

I second that, besides how many reports have we got that states terror hub in pakistan occupied kashmir is dismantled?
the terror war has clearly diverted India's interest's..... the next big thing would be a dirty bomb and everything is desert

ps. do we have a thread on how to survive a nuclear war?

 

[TOPGUN]

This thread pretty much means towards hand & hand towrds friendship & peace why must u guys trash it with hate and this kasab bs! stop already think peace.........

 

[wtf]

This thread pretty much means towards hand & hand towrds friendship & peace why must u guys trash it with hate and this kasab bs! stop already think peace.........

The unfortunate thing is that the wheels of justice turn very slowly in both countries. And it seems like the executive (atleast from India) has made it a condition that judiciary act against terrorists before talks can continue. I can understand the feeling from Indian side that as long as that is not done, they cannot believe those terrorists are non-state.

But the real unfortunate thing would be if people started stoking more anger while the executive branch is waiting for judiciary to finish up and then end up blocking the executive.

Complicated cycle, this is.

 

[wtf]

ps. do we have a thread on how to survive a nuclear war?

Your wish is my command (It will stay as long as mods don't take that too seriously :- )
http://www.defence.pk/forums/members-club/28056-surviving-nuclear-war.html

 

[IceCold]

An equal number of Indians lost life in the same blast...so I am not feeling happy for the loss of human life..its just that.....why do we have such disparity when it comes to your land and my land.......

Pakistan wants to try culprits who are Pakistani citizens in Pakistan courts (read: 26/11 terrorist attack planners) ...but Pakistan demands Culprits accused of attacks on India soil to be extradited to Pakistan so that they can be tried on Pakistan courts.....
Now if you want us to trust your law....why can't you trust our's.


That's funny........

We are not demanding anything in fact its the opposite. India demands from Pakistan. We are just saying how about then exchanging wanted men from both sides and not just Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Obama letter handed to India amid consultations on Pakistan​

WASHINGTON (AFP) — A US diplomat has handed India a letter from US President Barack Obama as both countries consult closely on stabilizing Afghanistan and Pakistan, US envoy Richard Holbrooke said Wednesday.

Holbrooke, briefing reporters on his own visit to Pakistan and Gulf Arab states last week, said US diplomat William Burns delivered the letter after arriving in Delhi overnight Tuesday but declined to divulge its contents.

"This administration believes that what happens in Afghanistan and Pakistan is of vital interest to our national security, and ...that India is a country that we must keep in closest consultation with," Holbrooke said.

He said he talked to Burns, the under secretary of state for political affairs, after his arrival in India.

Burns "is carrying a presidential letter to the Indian government. He is carrying the messages that I would have carried if I had the time to go to Delhi on this trip but I couldn't do it."

Holbrooke added: "We consider India an absolutely critical country in the region. They are vitally effective and we want to work closely with them."

In Delhi, Burns held talks with Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon in the first formal contact between Obama's administration and New Delhi's recently-elected government.

The United States has been encouraging India to restart dialogue with Pakistan, stalled since last November's attacks on Mumbai in which 166 people were killed.

India says the 10 gunmen involved in the assault were trained by the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) Islamic rebel group and has demanded that the alleged plotters be brought to justice.

Holbrooke said during a visit to Delhi in April that the threat posed by Al-Qaeda and its allies can be met only with the joint efforts of arch rivals India and Pakistan, as well as the United States.

But Holbrooke stressed that Washington had no intention of pushing New Delhi into resuming a peace dialogue with fellow nuclear power Islamabad.

Copyright © 2009 AFP. All rights reserved.

AFP: Obama letter handed to India amid consultations on Pakistan

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Interesting - wonder if this has any relevance to the statements by Zardari and Gillani especially that WTF mentioned earlier.

 

[wtf]

Obama letter handed to India amid consultations on Pakistan​

WASHINGTON (AFP) — A US diplomat has handed India a letter from US President Barack Obama as both countries consult closely on stabilizing Afghanistan and Pakistan, US envoy Richard Holbrooke said Wednesday.
. . . .

AFP: Obama letter handed to India amid consultations on Pakistan

---------------------------------------------------

Interesting - wonder if this has any relevance to the statements by Zardari and Gillani especially that WTF mentioned earlier.

Dawn is reporting that US did ask India about restarting talks and India said "Yes, but wait". Again report only from Dawn, wait for confirmations, I guess.

DAWN.COM | World | US asks India to resume talks with Pakistan

 

[jeypore]

The president said: ‘Pakistan wants an honourable, equitable and peaceful resolution of the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the wishes of the people of Kashmir.’

He said the opening of trade across the Line of Control in Kashmir by Pakistan would bring Kashmiri people closer and pave way for a peaceful political resolution to the dispute.

‘No resolution will be equitable or honourable which is not in accordance with the aspirations of the people of Kashmir.’

Since Zardari's approval rating is down the dumps, the sure bet is to bring the kashmir issue on the table again, so the approval can be back to an equilbrium. Just another political stunt, if you ask me.

 

[jeypore]

Interesting - wonder if this has any relevance to the statements by Zardari and Gillani especially that WTF mentioned earlier.​

It does since zardari and gillani are just playing political game to bring Mr. Holbrooke back in the Kashmir game. I believe they are doing it for there self interest (political approval) because Holbrook clearly stated washington is not entertaining the kashmir issue between India and Pakistan right know.

But Holbrooke stressed that Washington had no intention of pushing New Delhi into resuming a peace dialogue with fellow nuclear power Islamabad.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Since Zardari's approval rating is down the dumps, the sure bet is to bring the kashmir issue on the table again, so the approval can be back to an equilbrium. Just another political stunt, if you ask me.

Doesn't make sense - how is 'bringing Kashmir back to the table' (for dialog obviously) going to improve his approval ratings, which are in the tank over his being perceived as a US lackey, terrorism, massive load shedding and a slowing economy?

I think this line of argument goes back to the popular fallacy amongst Indians that Kashmir somehow erases the memories of Pakistanis over how their government is failing them - it does not.

Kashmir is important from a foreign policy POV, and compromising on it will be hard for any political party (which is why they largely have identical public positions on it). Musharraf for example showed the most flexibility on Kashmir (even moving away from the UN resolutions), but was pretty popular despite that. It was his domestic policies (WoT and the tussle with the judiciary) that started his downfall.

At the end of the day, Zardari's popularity will rise or fall depending upon how he handles the insurgent threat, the refugee crises and the economy - not whether Kashmir is 'put back on the table for dialog'.

 

[wtf]

Doesn't make sense - how is 'bringing Kashmir back to the table' (for dialog obviously) going to improve his approval ratings, which are in the tank over his being perceived as a US lackey, terrorism, massive load shedding and a slowing economy?

I think this line of argument goes back to the popular fallacy amongst Indians that Kashmir somehow erases the memories of Pakistanis over how their government is failing them - it does not.

Kashmir is important from a foreign policy POV, and compromising on it will be hard for any political party (which is why they largely have identical public positions on it). Musharraf for example showed the most flexibility on Kashmir (even moving away from the UN resolutions), but was pretty popular despite that. It was his domestic policies (WoT and the tussle with the judiciary) that started his downfall.

At the end of the day, Zardari's popularity will rise or fall depending upon how he handles the insurgent threat, the refugee crises and the economy - not whether Kashmir is 'put back on the table for dialog'.

If Zardari can sort this out early enough and get some money for Pakistan through trade or some early payment from India on the gas pipeline, he may benefit from it. It is not solving Kashmir that will help, but the benefits of peace. Having the country hopeful about a peaceful future might also get a short term economic boost.

But that's a really big if... However the deal gets sorted out, the opposition will paint that out as a compromise/appeasement. Look at how people are complaining about Pak support of US or complaining about Lal Masjid / Swat operations. Both I think were cases of the government doing the least minimum what was needed to have a stable Pakistan - but opposition paints both of them as unpatriotic.

Manmohan Singh has more flexibility there - he was on the brink with the nuclear deal issue and later on with Mumbai attack response. Both times he stood his ground and it seems like the nation stands by him too (more or less). So he can afford to do the right thing.

The only good thing going for for Zardari is that there is not much else to lose - so he is going to try and hit a sixer or get caught out.

Whatever the accusations about him in the past has been, so far he is doing things more or less pragmatically. The rare slip-up has been when he tried to get hold of ISI and had to back off. Quite unlike Gilani, who is popular but keeps contradicting himself or makes public announcements of half-baked news. I don't know if the Olive branch was something he believes in or simply reflects the consensus among people around him.