Z-10 & Z-19 Combat Helicopter News & Discussion

[illusion8]

You know guys, this is not even a news, just a blog by a common bloger....... Do you guys seirously believe it?
If I open a blog and say all indian jets, tanks are designed by me, do you believe that ?
Indian just believe what they want to believe, but never base on the truth or reasonable logic thinking, this is the indian.

Why don't you make an effort into proving that it was not Kamov / Russians who actually designed your Z10 or most of your equipment instead of talking about Indians?

 

[hk299792458]

well,as usual thread started on something else and now we are discussing on Arjun and 1962 war,typical chinese.. in most defence forum,this kind of ridiculous posts generally gets deleted within minutes..but it is

@topic..China designed their helos by Kamov and used P&W engines,there is nothing wrong with it.but instead of accepting that truth,they are using trolling as their last resort.by the way,congrats China for their nice attack helo(and i meant it).



actually Indians,American and British fought for them.I remember an article how British(and Indian) pilots flew their transport aircrafts over dangerous mountain region to bring Chinese soldiers into N-E camps to train them.

I repeat - Z-10 is chinese design, russian (Komav + several others DO) validation was required, contract was signed and started in 1994, stopped in 1998 because of very high price and low added value.

This is a very common pratice in most of the chinese programs launched in 80'/90', today this pratice is less and less used.

Henri K.

 

[ANPP]

I repeat - Z-10 is chinese design, russian (Komav + several others DO) validation was required, contract was signed and started in 1994, stopped in 1998 because of very high price and low added value.

This is a very common pratice in most of the chinese programs launched in 80'/90', today this pratice is less and less used.

Henri K.

What he is stating is that concept of heli was prepared by Kamov. They are not commenting on development phase and that could be possible though bez Kamov worked from 1994 to 98 for China to develop heli...

 

[hk299792458]

What he is stating is that concept of heli was prepared by Kamov. They are not commenting on development phase and that could be possible though bez Kamov worked from 1994 to 98 for China to develop heli...

That's exactly what I said, the concept (design) is from China, not russian.

To give you more details - Kamov & some DOs were mainly consulted in 2 areas, global design validation and fire control system architecture.

Global design validation means that China sent out first mockup and some physical caracteristics (mostly related to aerodynamic), and Russians used their methods and installations to validate the calculated caracteristics provided by Chinese designers.

Fire control systems architecture is an another part consulted, but the solution advised by Russians is an seperated system-to-function architecture, and not at all integrated. This part is completely refused by Chinese designers, and is one of the reasons for why China had stopped the contract.

To simplify, Kamov (& several DOs) had acted as primary design validator (POC validator), nothing less, nothing more.

Saying that the concept is Kamov's, for me, is just clearly lying. That's why I said that Kamov takes the risk to lose their credibility, and I don't really understand the real reason behind this...

Henri K.

 

[帅的一匹]

Ｃhina will be the competitor of Russia in world range weapon market in the near future. They are busy dealing with us.

 

[KRAIT]

What's wrong with it ? In defense, everything is fair. If the design bureau is in developing phase and a country needs the helis which are much more capable that they can't design right now, do anything to get the capability rather than delaying it on Pride.

We also have our nuclear submarine program with help of Russians. We should take their and French help a lot in many areas while our defense industry develops.

Good decision by Chinese.

 

[Donatello]

Still hurting from the 1962 mauling are we? feel the burn.
It must suck to be in a country that is ALWAYS behind China. You can't make your own weapons, can't beat us in war, can't overtake our economy, can't put a man into space, can't win a gold medal at the Olympics to save your life, can't host a commonwealth games without turning into a laughing stock by the international community. We look down on India and you damn well know it. You know what, that eats you up alive.
India is just a footnote in the global pecking order.

Dude, but what about ISI and Pakistan being responsible for India's all the woes?

 

[XTREME]

HELI-EXPO: Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter based on Kamov design​

The Changhe Aircraft WZ-10 attack helicopter is based on a Russian design commissioned by the Chinese, Kamov's chief design engineer says.

In 1995, Kamov developed a preliminary design in the 6t weight class under a contract with the Chinese government, says Sergey Mikheev, Kamov's chief design engineer, speaking at the Heli-Expo trade show in Las Vegas, Nevada.

"Due to understandable reasons, this information was kept secret," he says.

The Project 941 design was not based on any Soviet-era attack helicopter project and was strictly designed for China's unique requirements, Mikheev says. "They gave us the desired weight, we discussed preliminary performance parameters, then we signed a contract and we fulfilled the contract," he says.

After Kamov completed the design, the Russian design bureau verified the design via testing. Kamov then delivered the design to China and the Project 941 concept was accepted by that country's government for further development, he says. Kamov did not participate in any further developmental work on the WZ-10, he insists.

Thereafter, to the country's credit, Mikheev says, the Chinese handled the rest of the developmental work. That includes the developmental prototypes and the operational aircraft that is currently in production for the Chinese military.

"So I wish success to the helicopter," Mikheev says.

Mikheev would not comment on the WZ-10's performance. "That is a question for the Chinese," he says. "I know what I have done."

HELI-EXPO: Chinese WZ-10 attack helicopter based on Kamov design

 

[knightmare]

Dude, but what about ISI and Pakistan being responsible for India's all the woes?

Clearly, this is a joint project (making India miserable), concerned member please recognize their contribution.

Seriously you guys are taking 'sucking up' to new limits.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

March 07, 2013
Sergei Mikheyev, general designer of the Kamov Design Bureau, has revealed that the Russian helicopter company secretly designed the baseline version of the Z-10 attack helicopter for China in the mid-1990s.

The two-seat helicopter made its public debut at the 2012 Zhuhai air show in China, having undergone extensive testing by the People’s Liberation Army for several years. While an outward resemblance to the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta was widely discussed, no connection was ever made to Kamov until Mikheyev’s announcement at the Heli-Expo convention here on March 6.

Commenting during a briefing on the Kamov product line, Mikheyev says the decision to reveal the Russian company’s role in the design of the Z-10 followed its unveiling by China at the air show late last year.

Kamov worked on the preliminary design at China’s request in 1995. “Due to understandable reasons this was kept secret, but we made the design and it was accepted by China,” Mikheyev says. The baseline design, which was known internally as Project 941, “was accepted for development,” he adds.

Until now, it was generally believed that the aircraft had been designed in China and that the only real foreign input was in the powerplant.

The Z-10’s development has been highly controversial. Five aircraft were powered by Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C engines fitted with full authority digital engine controls developed by Hamilton Sundstrand. Following investigations by federal agencies, United Technologies Corp., the parent company of the two firms, was fined $75 million for violating the Arms Export Control Act and making false statements in connection with the illegal export to China of U.S.-origin military software in June 2012.

According to evidence heard in the trial, China has sourced the engines under the pretense of producing a civil medium transport. PW&C provided up to 10 engines for the aircraft. Since then, it has been suggested that Z-10 manufacturer Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation has had to use a lower-rated indigenously-built engine in the helicopter, forcing it to undertake a significant weight-saving program until a new, more powerful engine becomes available.

Kamov is better known for its co-axial designs such as the Ka-32 transport helicopter and also the Ka-50/52 attack helicopters. The company is producing the Ka-62 utility helicopter.

“So I wish success to the helicopter,” Mikheyev adds.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_03_07_2013_p0-556313.xml

 

[Myth_buster_1]

March 07, 2013
Sergei Mikheyev, general designer of the Kamov Design Bureau, has revealed that the Russian helicopter company secretly designed the baseline version of the Z-10 attack helicopter for China in the mid-1990s.

The two-seat helicopter made its public debut at the 2012 Zhuhai air show in China, having undergone extensive testing by the People’s Liberation Army for several years. While an outward resemblance to the AgustaWestland A129 Mangusta was widely discussed, no connection was ever made to Kamov until Mikheyev’s announcement at the Heli-Expo convention here on March 6.

Commenting during a briefing on the Kamov product line, Mikheyev says the decision to reveal the Russian company’s role in the design of the Z-10 followed its unveiling by China at the air show late last year.

Kamov worked on the preliminary design at China’s request in 1995. “Due to understandable reasons this was kept secret, but we made the design and it was accepted by China,” Mikheyev says. The baseline design, which was known internally as Project 941, “was accepted for development,” he adds.

Until now, it was generally believed that the aircraft had been designed in China and that the only real foreign input was in the powerplant.

The Z-10’s development has been highly controversial. Five aircraft were powered by Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C engines fitted with full authority digital engine controls developed by Hamilton Sundstrand. Following investigations by federal agencies, United Technologies Corp., the parent company of the two firms, was fined $75 million for violating the Arms Export Control Act and making false statements in connection with the illegal export to China of U.S.-origin military software in June 2012.

According to evidence heard in the trial, China has sourced the engines under the pretense of producing a civil medium transport. PW&C provided up to 10 engines for the aircraft. Since then, it has been suggested that Z-10 manufacturer Changhe Aircraft Industries Corporation has had to use a lower-rated indigenously-built engine in the helicopter, forcing it to undertake a significant weight-saving program until a new, more powerful engine becomes available.

Kamov is better known for its co-axial designs such as the Ka-32 transport helicopter and also the Ka-50/52 attack helicopters. The company is producing the Ka-62 utility helicopter.

“So I wish success to the helicopter,” Mikheyev adds.

Russian Roots Revealed In China's Z-10

The following section illustrates the scale of involvement of non-Indian companies in the design.

The European Union

Belgium

Forges de Zeebrugge FZ

Variants of the ALH have incorporated rocket launchers produced by the Belgiam company, Forges de Zeebrugge FZ.

For example, the photo below shows the FZ nameplate on the rocket launcher mounted on ALH on display at Farnborough International, UK on 14 August 2006.

[Photo Caption] © Robin Ballantyne

Forges de Zeebrugge FZ confirmed that they have contracts with both HAL and the Indian Army, which have been approved by the Belgian authorities and are subject to end-use agreements. Confidentiality clauses contained within the contract prevented fuller disclosure of any details surrounding the nature of the deal.12

France

Turbomeca

The French company Turbomeca (now part of the Safran Group) has undertaken both the direct export of engines from France to India but has also established licensed production and technology transfer arrangements with HAL to produce engines for the ALH. In February 2003, it was announced that Turbomeca and HAL had signed three major contracts. These included a contract for the supply of TM 333 2B2 engines for application on the HAL helicopter; and another contract for the repair and overhaul licence for the TM 333 2B2.13 The HAL website states that the ALH continues to use the "Turbomeca TM 333-2B2 Twin Turbo-shaft Engine 746 kw (1000 SHP)".14

Turbomeca confirmed that it has three contracts with HAL, two of which cover the supply, repair, servicing and overhaul of the TM333-2B2 engines for the ALH. The company also stated that all its contracts were regulated by the appropriate French export licensing authorities.15 However in its response to our enquiries the French Government stated that the engines in question are not classified as war material by the French regulations and do not appear in the list of items subject to the Myanmar embargo. In our view, this interpretation is wrong because non-listed items in the EC Dual Use Regulation if incorporated into military items bound for embargoed destinations become licensable, that is subject to the embargo (for more on this see the section on EU export controls on re-exports over military equipment below).16 It would therefore appear that the French Government places no restrictions on the transfer of equipment fundamental to the operation of the ALH notwithstanding the fact that it is clearly also used as a military aircraft.

GIAT Industries (Nexter) and MBDA

In July 2006 defence news service Shepherd Rotorhub quoted Hindustan

Aeronautics' chairman Ashok Baweja describing a weaponisation programme was under way for the ALH. This was to include a 20mm gun from the French company GIAT and rockets from European missile manufacturer MBDA.17 In December 2006, GIAT (now renamed Nexter) announced that it had been awarded a contract by HAL for:

"the supply of 20 THL 20 turrets that will equip the Indian Armed Forces' Advanced Light Helicopter. The order covers the development phase of 20 turrets. The first deliveries will take place in 2008...."18

In March 2007 Jane's Information Group reported that HAL signed a deal with MBDA in July 2006 for the supply of air-to-air Mistral missiles for armed versions of the ALH.19

Nexter has confirmed that it does supply products to HAL for the ALH. This currently includes twenty 'THL 20' 20mm Helicopter turrets. The company also stated that all of its exports are regulated and approved by the appropriate French export licensing authorities and that any additional contracts to supply the ALH that were not stipulated in the original contract would require a further export licence.20

Germany

Eurocopter Deutschland (formerly MBB) and now wholly owned by Eurocopter

Eurocopter has been involved (originally as MBB) with the development of the ALH since at least July 1984.21 In November 1995, it was reported that Eurocopter had submitted a proposal to the Indian Defence Ministry to "co-produce the ALH designed by HAL. It plans to set up production facilities in India to manufacture the ALH for both local and export markets."22 In 2006 both companies were advertising their mutual co-operation: Eurocopter noting that it was supplying rotor blades for the ALH,23 and HAL announcing that "Eurocopter, the helicopter manufacturer owned by EADS, has been cooperating with HAL for over four decades.... India was the first nation with which Eurocopter signed a licence agreement for technology transfer."24 Amnesty International wrote to Eurocopter in March 2007 asking for clarification over its role in the development of the ALH. As of 25 June 2007, the company had not responded.

SITEC Aerospace

SITEC Aerospace manufactures a range of components and complete assemblies for flight/engine controls for various types of aircraft.25 According to company literature on display at Farnborough International 2006, SITEC provides components for the ALH.

SITEC Aerospace confirmed that they supply parts for the ALH, but that they do not export these directly to HAL, but supply them to another unnamed German manufacturer who subsequently incorporates these items into other systems for the ALH.26

Italy

Elettronica Aster SpA

The Italian company Elettronica Aster SpA on its website describes HAL as a major customer. According to the "Company and Program Overview", Elettronica Aster SpA has produced and supplied the ALH with a brake system.27

Amnesty International wrote to Elettronica Aster SpA in March 2007 to ask for clarifications as to its involvement in the development of the ALH. In its reply dated 15 March, the company had no comment on the specifics of its supply of components for the ALH, stating only that Elettronica Aster SpA's "export activity is regulated by the rules called out in the Italian Law no.185/'90 (with amendment DDL 1927), establishing the regulation for weapons import/export/transit."28

Sweden

Saab AB

Saab Avitronics, the South African joint venture company owned by Saab AB (Sweden) and Saab Grintek (South Africa, itself part owned by Saab AB), has been awarded a multi-million dollar export contract from HAL for the supply of self-protection equipment for installation on the ALH for the Indian Armed Forces.29

Amnesty International wrote to Saab AB on 1 June 2007 asking for clarification over its involvement with the ALH. Saab AB replied saying: "All export approvals from the concerned authorities are in place. The export licences are supported by an end-user certificate."30

The United Kingdom

APPH Precision Hydraulics

At the 2004 Farnborough arms fair, the UK company APPH Precision Hydraulics Ltd displayed its Hydraulic Package as the following:

"HAL Advanced Light Helicopter Hydraulic Package designed and manufactured by APPH Ltd"

Amnesty International wrote to in March 2007 to ask for clarifications as its involvement in the development of the ALH. As of 25 June 2007, the company had not responded.

FPT Industries Ltd

In 1993 it was reported that FPT Industries Ltd had been awarded a contract to supply floatation equipment for the ALH under development by HAL.31 FTP Industries is part of GKN Aerospace Services Ltd. In 1997, it was reported that FPT Industries' self-sealing fuel tank systems were being used in the ALH.32 In 2007, the FPT Industries website stated that: "FPT equipment is fitted to a range of helicopters including ALH".33

In 1997, the then GKN Westland Aerospace Ltd (renamed GKN Aerospace Services Ltd in 2001) was awarded a contract to supply the internal gearbox BR715 for HAL's ALH.34

GKN Aerospace Services Ltd confirmed that they have supplied fuel tanks, floatation equipment and related gaskets and seals for the ALH, but that these are subject to end-use certificates stipulating that they would not be re-exported. The company stated that future supplies for the ALH would be for components and kits for fuel tanks that would be assembled locally in India, but would again be subject to similar end-use undertakings.35 However, while the UK Government normally requires the presentation of end-use documentation as part of the licensing process, it does not as a rule then include explicit end-use restrictions as a condition on the export licence . If this is the case in this instance, what force those end-use undertakings have is unclear.

Other third-country involvement in the ALH:

The United States

It should be noted that the US embargo on Myanmar does not specifically mention indirect supplies, nor does it place controls on civilian components that are incorporated into military systems. However, indirect supplies of US military components or other controlled items are subject to re-export controls under the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) system which specifically states that re-export of US-controlled content can only take place with the express permission of the US Government. Section 123.9 "Country of ultimate destination" provides that:

"(a) The country designated as the country of ultimate destination on an application for an export licence, or on a shipper's export declaration where an exemption is claimed under this subchapter, must be the country of ultimate end-use. The written approval of the Department of State must be obtained before reselling, diverting, transferring, transshipping, or disposing of a defense article in any country other than the country of ultimate destination as stated on the export licence, or on the shipper's export declaration in cases where an exemption is claimed under this subchapter. Exporters must ascertain the specific end-use and end-user prior to submitting an application to the Office of Munitions Control or claiming an exemption under this subchapter. End-use must be confirmed and should not be assumed."36

However, it is not clear whether components supplied by US companies for the ALH have been specifically designed or adapted for military use. If not, they may fall outside this specification.

Aitech Systems Ltd

In September 2005, it was reported that Aitech Systems Ltd, a US company, had announced it had "received the first production order from the Lahav Division of Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) for Display & Mission Computers" for inclusion in the glass cockpit of the ALH. The Lahav Division of IAI is under contract to HAL to develop and provide the avionics system for the HAL.37

Deliveries for the first production of Display and Mission Computers were due to be completed by May 2006:

"Aitech will build 400 Display & Mission Computers for the ALH program, to be delivered over the next several years. In addition, Aitech is under contract to IAI to provide the next generation of Display & Mission Computer." 38

Amnesty International wrote to the company in March 2007 asking for clarifications over its involvement with the ALH, but has yet to receive a reply (as of 25 June 2007).

Lord Corporation

In January 2004, it was reported that Lord Corporation had announced that it had been "awarded the first production contract for its active vibration control system" for the ALH. Lord Corporation had been supplying other parts (such as elastomeric bearings) for the main tail rotor and parts for various "isolators", which together formed part of an anti-resonance isolator system aimed at reducing vibrations in the aircraft." The report also stated that "Lord would supply the vibration dampers for these aircraft with user approvals."39

The Lord Corporation wrote to Amnesty International on 9 March 2007 saying that contractual obligations of confidentiality prevented any disclosure of the Lord Corporation's involvement in military products, other than information currently in the public domain. The company also stipulated that it was fully aware of government compliance issues and "strives to be in full compliance with all applicable regulations."40

 

[The A-5]

WZ-10 was initially designed and tested with US P&W, Russian and Ukrainian engine.

But later China developed Wozhou (WZ)-9 turbo-shaft engine that is used in production WZ-10 attack helicopter.

WZ-9 IS a Chinese made indigenous engine.

Dont think so.

The domestic WZ-9) was designed by the 602 Research Institute, with Ukrainian and Russian assistance. The transmission system was developed with the help of Agusta Westland.

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...uFuF12V6HKEvnPrbQ&sig2=dch_TGgYd1ArnV8eskIecg

 

[The A-5]

@Myth_buster_1

You are neither Chinese not Indian and nor Russian. You are just a self-deluded pakistani moron
who likes putting his fingers into everything.

 

[JSCh]

Dont think so.



http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rc...uFuF12V6HKEvnPrbQ&sig2=dch_TGgYd1ArnV8eskIecg

You quoted

The domestic WZ-9) was designed by the 602 Research Institute, with Ukrainian and Russian assistance. The transmission system was developed with the help of Agusta Westland.

Domestic ergo Indigenous.

 

[IND151]

Nothing wrong if Russia helped China in helicopter design. They have money and they can buy anything. and this hello is fulfilling the requirement of China. that's all matter.

agreed.

its better to take help from countries in such projects which have enormous experience of designing military platforms

China had no experience of designing attack helis in 1990s, so taking outside help was very good decision