Yep, the world has a new role model for political and economic development

[Realtalk108]

Check my comment history.
I am pro China because of Pakistan
But I can never get on board with Communism.

I have friends in China right now, who I can't talk to on Facebook, or Skype because of the Great Firewall.

History has shown that, in the long run, any attempt to shield your people from information is bound to fail.

China is as communist today as North Korea is democratic. The correct description for the current Chinese model would be state guided capitalism with significant social safety nets.

As far as the firewall is concerned, I think it's mainly to protect their citizens from getting brainwashed by the West.

 

[Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA]

The Chinese model only works IF (and that is a VERY BIG IF) the leadership is in good hand, and since it was all the way to the top, if the leader quality is bad, than, it mean it will fail dramatically.

Question is, whether or not you can maintain a good leadership or keep churning out good leader is one thing, another thing is when the economy begin to tank, it would take a good bunch of people to save it, but being in China, you don't have the luxury for that big bunch of people, because power is centralised. And you cannot remove anyone that is not suitable to lead, because power is centralised.

As a Military Officer, I was always told it's easy to fight an downhill battle when people before you already prep the battlefield, but when you fight an uphill battle, that is where the leadership quality shows. And China have not seen many "Uphill Battle" since 1980 when the leadership with Deng is exceptionally good, but all good things comes to an end, and whether or not China can survive a bad leader remain to be seen. But I would not want to be in that China if they were elected.

the biggest advantages which make CPC different from.other communist party is its learning ability.....
TIme changes so does CPC!
From 1776 to 1865 Yankees was under slavery system and even today black poeple still suffering in.many field....do.not.pretend you are perfect....
YOUR country father Washington is a black slaves owner am i right?!
or you will.say.CHINESE of today are all slaves?!

I heard Iran also has firewall(Not so sure though). If it's true, at least it proves that firewall doesn't just exist in Communism country. Iran and China have nothing in common except they are the main targets of US propaganda machines.

Hypothetically if someday China becomes the most powerful country and funds anti-America propaganda institutions. The only purpose of them is inciting hatred between different races and inspiriting separatists in the south states. Will America government set firewall to block the propaganda?

Of course it's an assumption. Conversely to say it's reality because that is what exactly America government is doing to China.

yankees are powerful that is true but if you really believe yankees want to help other countries to be more prosper especially Chinese ordinary people to obtain human rights and freedom and democracy then you are sadly too naive....the best interest for yankees is no country now and in the future can challenge Or has the ability or pottential to challenge yankees.
their God need them to crash its enemy to hell....like China.Russia.pottentially india .jap.brazil.UK.Germany.France. Indonesia.Vietnam.pakistan BD....generally speaking all countries has more than 65millions people or have huge land is the natural enemy of yankees！

 

[jhungary]

the biggest advantages which make CPC different from.other communist party is its learning ability.....
TIme changes so does CPC!
From 1776 to 1865 Yankees was under slavery system and even today black poeple still suffering in.many field....do.not.pretend you are perfect....
YOUR country father Washington is a black slaves owner am i right?!
or you will.say.CHINESE of today are all slaves?!

I don't understand what that have to do with anything?

We are ALL SLAVE, today, we live for money, tell me one country you can live without earning any money? Tell me which citizens on earth does not need to care about Money? So, yes, Chinese are ALL SLAVES, American are ALL SLAVES, British are ALL SLAVES, so, what is the point?

You are talking about 1770s, where life is simple, people live in 1770 don't have what we have today, try live without electricity for a month and you will know how you were enslaved to technology.

My point still stand. The Chinese model only works when you have the right person on the very top, if the person on top is not fit to lead the country, the Chinese system WILL FAIL. When you talk about Authoritarian Regimes, it's simply that, because you cannot remove the person on top, whether or not if the person on top is competent or up to the challenge. because power is centralised.

 

[TaiShang]

Every model has virtues and deficiencies. Take the US for example. The system works as long as there is elite consensus as to how to share the abundant resources.

When resources are few and elite consensus cannot be reached, the US system WILL FAIL.

It is just in the nature of corporatism to devolve into fascism as it is the absolute power holders that manage information flow and select the right candidates for competition in elections.

 

[TaiShang]

Should a corrupt model really impose itself upon others? How about just having it for themselves and letting others be.

Let them choose whatever model they want? Why toppling governments, supporting dictators like in Guatemala? In the end, it backfires and people are filled with generational hatred, as the US is today probably the top most hated country in the world?

Once the bread and butter of the US is gone (as it is now diminishing) what will left for the rest of the world is hatred.

Such a model WILL not just FAIL but it WILL IMPLODE.

China is a new model based on historical knowledge and pragmatic evaluation of present conditions. It is not to be exported or adopted. Its only potential external impact is 1) the theory of peaceful coexistence, 2) providing evidence that alternatives do exist.

The former, the US can get live by (a sort of G2 they dream about), but the latter is the very anti-thesis of US regime. That's where the friction is now. Otherwise, the US has been forced to respect most of China's space and arguments already.

***

 

[Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA]

I don't understand what that have to do with anything?

We are ALL SLAVE, today, we live for money, tell me one country you can live without earning any money? Tell me which citizens on earth does not need to care about Money? So, yes, Chinese are ALL SLAVES, American are ALL SLAVES, British are ALL SLAVES, so, what is the point?

You are talking about 1770s, where life is simple, people live in 1770 don't have what we have today, try live without electricity for a month and you will know how you were enslaved to technology.

My point still stand. The Chinese model only works when you have the right person on the very top, if the person on top is not fit to lead the country, the Chinese system WILL FAIL. When you talk about Authoritarian Regimes, it's simply that, because you cannot remove the person on top, whether or not if the person on top is competent or up to the challenge. because power is centralised.

Tell me again,how did Hitler or Trump be elected？ democratically or chinese way?
Hitler said Germanic people comes the first while today Trump make it clear Americain comes the first!!!!
Really amazing democratical system!!!

What i am trying to say is the CPC system is the best system for China and is the only system that can works for the best interests of chinese people,whoever told you china should be democratized they are either naive and do not understand china at all or just play the old Zero-sum game, Collapse of China is in the best interest for those kind of people...

Which is " NEVER GONNA HAPPEN "!!! Chinese poeple are not that supid as iraqis or libyans that could easily believe the democratic propaganda especially when we are not that rich enough and we ordinary chinese would not deifinitely believe you american will protect and promot the benifits of chinese ordinary people!!!!

what´s about the Manchuria, occupied by the russians?


No you are wrong. Chinese are master of universe. soon they will fly thru the window like a bird.

A VN who can not even read its ancester words who think they have a 3000 years long history while its offficial language are westernized by french occupation....LOL.............
Same to Outer mongolia,they think they are the offspring of Genghis Khan while using russian like language,we China uses chinese language 3000 years ago and today we still use it.

I don't understand what that have to do with anything?

We are ALL SLAVE, today, we live for money, tell me one country you can live without earning any money? Tell me which citizens on earth does not need to care about Money? So, yes, Chinese are ALL SLAVES, American are ALL SLAVES, British are ALL SLAVES, so, what is the point?

You are talking about 1770s, where life is simple, people live in 1770 don't have what we have today, try live without electricity for a month and you will know how you were enslaved to technology.

My point still stand. The Chinese model only works when you have the right person on the very top, if the person on top is not fit to lead the country, the Chinese system WILL FAIL. When you talk about Authoritarian Regimes, it's simply that, because you cannot remove the person on top, whether or not if the person on top is competent or up to the challenge. because power is centralised.

In terms of economy development,China is a child while usa an adult,the political system can not be built on nothing,today China GDP per capita is around 8200 USD,i think when it reaches 20000 usd,china may be more westernized but will never copy western system coz that will coz chaos and would lose chinese characters and losing the spirit of china as a Passive protectionism empire under prefectures and counties system!
How can you explain china built Great wall and did not invade anyone when it has the most powerful navy in MING dynasty!!!
CHINA= Passive protectionism empire under prefectures and counties system！

what´s about the Manchuria, occupied by the russians?


No you are wrong. Chinese are master of universe. soon they will fly thru the window like a bird.

There are treaties for the outer Manchuria although it is not fair but there are treaties made by Qing Empire and the gov of People's republic of China has recognized it,tell me which treaty allowed China to cede Nanshan and Xisha islands to you and the gov of People's republic of China has recognized it?!!!!
Chinese gov has made it clear that China recognized that bach long island in Beibu Gulf belongs to VN this is clear so no dispute ok?!
but the gov of People's republic of China has never recognized Nanshan and Xisha islands belongs to VN whatsoever!!!!
if you can claim some islands belogn to you coz you are more powerful just after taken down South Vietnam and have Soviet union support,then we have nothing to say,the 1988 南沙海战(South China sea battle=Hải chiến Trường Sa ) made China gov point quite clear!!!
Thanks for your time!

 

[TaiShang]

The question of the OP is not if the China Model works or does not work for others.

It is to point that there is a new role model that proves that there are alternatives. Alternatives are possible. It is up to others to copy (they should not, at least, as a whole, if you ask any diplomat in China), or to get inspired, or to totally ignore.

The argument that a model would work for others because it worked well in China is absurd. That's entirely against to what th Belt and Road represents.

The beauty lies in the destruction of US exceptionalism and the post colonial hubris that claimed the end of ideology.

NOPE. Ideological plurality is actually just warming up.

 

[Viet]

Tell me again,how did Hitler or Trump be elected？ democratically or chinese way?
Hitler said Germanic people comes the first while today Trump make it clear Americain comes the first!!!!
Really amazing democratical system!!!

What i am trying to say is the CPC system is the best system for China and is the only system that can works for the best interests of chinese people,whoever told you china should be democratized they are either naive and do not understand china at all or just play the old Zero-sum game, Collapse of China is in the best interest for those kind of people...

Which is " NEVER GONNA HAPPEN "!!! Chinese poeple are not that supid as iraqis or libyans that could easily believe the democratic propaganda especially when we are not that rich enough and we ordinary chinese would not deifinitely believe you american will protect and promot the benifits of chinese ordinary people!!!!


A VN who can not even read its ancester words who think they have a 3000 years long history while its offficial language are westernized by french occupation....LOL.............
Same to Outer mongolia,they think they are the offspring of Genghis Khan while using russian like language,we China uses chinese language 3000 years ago and today we still use it.


In terms of economy development,China is a child while usa an adult,the political system can not be built on nothing,today China GDP per capita is around 8200 USD,i think when it reaches 20000 usd,china may be more westernized but will never copy western system coz that will coz chaos and would lose chinese characters and losing the spirit of china as a Passive protectionism empire under prefectures and counties system!
How can you explain china built Great wall and did not invade anyone when it has the most powerful navy in MING dynasty!!!
CHINA= Passive protectionism empire under prefectures and counties system！


There are treaties for the outer Manchuria although it is not fair but there are treaties made by Qing Empire and the gov of People's republic of China has recognized it,tell me which treaty allowed China to cede Nanshan and Xisha islands to you and the gov of People's republic of China has recognized it?!!!!
Chinese gov has made it clear that China recognized that bach long island in Beibu Gulf belongs to VN this is clear so no dispute ok?!
but the gov of People's republic of China has never recognized Nanshan and Xisha islands belongs to VN whatsoever!!!!
if you can claim some islands belogn to you coz you are more powerful just after taken down South Vietnam and have Soviet union support,then we have nothing to say,the 1988 南沙海战(South China sea battle=Hải chiến Trường Sa ) made China gov point quite clear!!!
Thanks for your time!

So so you ceded the land of Manchuria to Russia that was part of great China, while you want to rob lands and sea from other that have never been parts of China?

You should understand, we, the Vietnamese people have no humor for humourless clowns.

 

[gambit]

This is funny...

The title of the thread clearly states that the world has a new 'role model', implying something worthy of importing and implementation at home. And yet, when point out the flaws, the Chinese are quick to retreat behind the shield of 'works only for China'.

So which is it, does it work only for China, or is it worth emulating at home ?

 

[Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA]

So so you ceded the land of Manchuria to Russia that was part of great China, while you want to rob lands and sea from other that have never been parts of China?

You should understand, we, the Vietnamese people have no humor for humourless clowns.

You are still avoiding my question!!!!
tell me which treaty allowed China to cede Nanshan and Xisha islands to you and the gov of People's republic of China has recognized it???

This is funny...

The title of the thread clearly states that the world has a new 'role model', implying something worthy of importing and implementation at home. And yet, when point out the flaws, the Chinese are quick to retreat behind the shield of 'works only for China'.

So which is it, does it work only for China, or is it worth emulating at home ?

I do not care what others said,but in My opinion:
it works only for China!
Thanks for your time!

 

[Cybernetics]

We will remember that.


The problem with this argument is that you opened the door to a modern version of feudalism.

I am USAF veteran, so you are using the wrong analogy. I may enter the military as the lowest ranking enlisted or commissioned officer, but unlike the feudal classes, I can move up the ranks based upon my own efforts, which includes intellectual and physical. Same with any corporation. If I do not like the military or honorably completed my contract, I can leave and enter another social class and move up its structure. If I do not like working for a company, I can leave that company and start my own and move up that social structure. Social strata is inevitable, but what make modern society different and better is the opportunities to move laterally and/or upward among the strata.

What you are advocating is nothing new. The communists said it before and so many people swallowed it.

Avoiding feudalism is about promoting capable people and giving the masses a good basic education/environment.

The reality we live in is where nepotism exists including in whats considered the most developed western liberal democracies. Canada (9th) and Denmark(1st) are some of the least corrupt countries in the world.

Y-axis: rate of nepotism, X-axis: percentile of father's income.

Nepotism remains steady and spikes above 95th percentile to 50% in Denmark and 70% in Canada. Elites of even liberal democracies with least corrupt and least unequal societies have large amounts of nepotism, hurting meritocracy. Canada and Denmark are still good countries to live in, the point is that there are many factors that go into building a society suited for its people.

There are elements of feudalism in USA and other developed western countries. Big political families, corporate families, banking families, investment funds like Vatican investment fund will continue to dominate the elite of Western society. Not saying the west is a bad place to live at all but its near impossible for an outsider to be at the top of Western society.

Moving up in society is not just about political position. In China people make money, pursue their dreams by starting their own businesses, work in an established firm, work in another country, immigrate, etc. If one wishes to be part of the political structure one needs to start from the bottom and work to the top, just like any other organisation.

What am I advocating for? I'm just observing.

The article was written by Curtis Stone a person with a Western view of China. I have noticed that some Westerners who like Chinese culture and development will want to push the Chinese model on other parts of the world because they think if it works for China it should work for others. On the other hand Chinese people in China rarely think that way, they rarely think that China needs to push others to use the Chinese governance model, Chinese are not that evangelical. It doesn't reflect people from China's thoughts even if its published by China Daily since Chinese people are curious to hear what foreigners think about China.

 

[Viet]

You are still avoiding my question!!!!
tell me which treaty allowed China to cede Nanshan and Xisha islands to you and the gov of People's republic of China has recognized it???


I do not care what others said,but in My opinion:
it works only for China!
Thanks for your time!

How can you cede anything that never belongs to you?

 

[Georg]

for a poor country,the most important thing to be a human is having enough food, shelter,clean water,medicines,job opportunities instead of so called humain rights!!!
Ask people live in Syria,Iraq,Libya,Afghanistan,Sudan,what does human right mean really?!

You know under what conditions this constitution was writen? bombed out citys... 13million refugees in Germany ...no heating no clothing no food nothing.. there was a photodocomentation in Berlin showing todays refugess how Berlin looked like 1945 and they had old eyewitness telling who the Bombraids were.... what happen in today is nothing compared to the mass bombing flatten whole citys in one night...

At the Dresden Bombing the first wave dropped 900to of bombs in 15Minutes destroying 3/4 of the old city, the second wave 2 hours later dropped 1500to of bombs... this started a firehurrican in the city melting glass and metal with a storm that pulled full groan adults into the fire... between 20-25.000 people died in a single raid in a single night.

That what Germany looked like as human rights were put at first place....

 

[TaiShang]

The article was written by Curtis Stone a person with a Western view of China. I have noticed that some Westerners who like Chinese culture and development will want to push the Chinese model on other parts of the world because they think if it works for China it should work for others.

Actually, the author simply responds to the ethno-centric hubris spewed by a retired US general who said:

“Heard China claims to be ‘role model’ for the world. Nope. The world has a role model. Unless we talk ourselves out of it,”

So, against the hubris spewed by that US general, the author in the OP simply says, "Yep, there is a new role model. The US model is not the only one."

Notice, the author does not suggest that China claims to offer an alternative. But he simply says China is a model as it is a distinct system, and, potentially, can be an alternative, if it is seen and copied as such by others. However, truth is, China has never claimed to be an alternative, let alone imposed it upon others.

Nonetheless, even the existence of a distinct model is big enough a challenge to the international political debasement, that is, the Washington Consensus, as it seems.

 

[Adam WANG SHANGHAI MEGA]

You know under what conditions this constitution was writen? bombed out citys... 13million refugees in Germany ...no heating no clothing no food nothing.. there was a photodocomentation in Berlin showing todays refugess how Berlin looked like 1945 and they had old eyewitness telling who the Bombraids were.... what happen in today is nothing compared to the mass bombing flatten whole citys in one night...

At the Dresden Bombing the first wave dropped 900to of bombs in 15Minutes destroying 3/4 of the old city, the second wave 2 hours later dropped 1500to of bombs... this started a firehurrican in the city melting glass and metal with a storm that pulled full groan adults into the fire... between 20-25.000 people died in a single raid in a single night.

That what Germany looked like as human rights were put at first place....

Before WWII,Germany was already a developed country what kind of country can build Tiger Tank=developed country!!!Germany had very well educated people while at the same time 80% of chinese are illiterates..
Cities destroyed,they can be rebuilt,and of course a lot of people dead,but the education level does not drop too much and with support of Marshall Plan and German hard work especially german women hard work,and free market policies,good governance,and so on....
Plus Germany has usa market, while today China giant like huawei is banned in USA,India,Australia.......
China has been sanctionned firstly by USA and then by both USA and Soviet union,even today USA,Japan,Australia,Canada and Europe are still sanctioning China by not selling any so called high tech products to China,such as Chipset company,high tech weapons.....If Germany was sanctionned since 1945 like no permission to enter americain market ... I do not know if it could have such achivements......
For exemple,without the falling of Soviet union,do you think germany can be united again.....i seriously doubt it would happen or at least 20 years later!! Why you think taiwan is not united coz of usa direct support ans european and jap indirect support!!!
so do not tell me that external environment doesn't matter.....But we China would finally overcome it and become number 1 again !

You know under what conditions this constitution was writen? bombed out citys... 13million refugees in Germany ...no heating no clothing no food nothing.. there was a photodocomentation in Berlin showing todays refugess how Berlin looked like 1945 and they had old eyewitness telling who the Bombraids were.... what happen in today is nothing compared to the mass bombing flatten whole citys in one night...

At the Dresden Bombing the first wave dropped 900to of bombs in 15Minutes destroying 3/4 of the old city, the second wave 2 hours later dropped 1500to of bombs... this started a firehurrican in the city melting glass and metal with a storm that pulled full groan adults into the fire... between 20-25.000 people died in a single raid in a single night.

That what Germany looked like as human rights were put at first place....

The direct reason why you cherish so called human right this much is becasue your new german gov want to show the world that you are different from hitler and Jewish holocaust.....
Most importantly,you lost the WWII by adopting aggressive foreign policy so after WWII, you have no choice but to be peaceful!
As far as i know,It is a glory thing for you westerns to conquer others while China was and is a passive conservative empire.There is no God ask us to conquer others!

 

[Cybernetics]

You know under what conditions this constitution was writen? bombed out citys... 13million refugees in Germany ...no heating no clothing no food nothing.. there was a photodocomentation in Berlin showing todays refugess how Berlin looked like 1945 and they had old eyewitness telling who the Bombraids were.... what happen in today is nothing compared to the mass bombing flatten whole citys in one night...

At the Dresden Bombing the first wave dropped 900to of bombs in 15Minutes destroying 3/4 of the old city, the second wave 2 hours later dropped 1500to of bombs... this started a firehurrican in the city melting glass and metal with a storm that pulled full groan adults into the fire... between 20-25.000 people died in a single raid in a single night.

That what Germany looked like as human rights were put at first place....

Certainly Germans weren't left with much of an infrastructure and was in a terrible state. On the other hand Germany still had its social inertia carried by the memories of its people's collective conscience. Germans remember the knowledge and ideas they had before the devastation, thus rebuilding civilisation and progressing is a matter of obtaining materials to rebuild the physical infrastructure and restore societal functions. Once order is restored its easy for society to catch up with its original trajectory. In the post war period Germans still had the organisation and respect for authority that prevented anarchy. Its easy to destroy a city but hard to destroy a people's history and experiences.

It would be impossible for a country like Congo to have the social environment like Germany within one generation even if they all became billionaires through selling resources. Cultivating a civil consciousness takes multiple generations.

Any constitution is written upon the reflection of one's cultural history. On some major points people around the world have agreements but not all values are universal. Laws and constitutions require interpretation and that interpretation varies from place to place.

What people think of as their rights is a reflection upon their experiences or society's experiences. In the US many people would think its their god given right to drive any car they can afford. It would be "against their rights" if anybody told them they couldn't drive a big block chevy truck. While in China people are not that conditioned to them having any car they like since car ownership is fairly new, so its perceived more as a privilege than a right and the car more as a transportation tool.

In the US people generally respect authority, police are more accustomed to use violent force and people use the reference "I will contact my lawyer" which is a sign that its a deeply law and order based society. While in China many would be surprised to the degree police officers receive open disrespect from some people because they know the officers can't use force like american officers. If american cops were patrolling Chinese streets, people would be complaining about their human rights all the time. Even if the same laws were put into place as in the West, it cannot be regulated in the same way, as some normal and respected laws in the West would cause Chinese people to be up in arms. Just like if Chinese laws were forced upon Americans, it doesn't make sense.

Actually, the author simply responds to the ethno-centric hubris spewed by a retired US general who said:



So, against the hubris spewed by that US general, the author in the OP simply says, "Yep, there is a new role model. The US model is not the only one."

Notice, the author does not suggest that China claims to offer an alternative. But he simply says China is a model as it is a distinct system, and, potentially, can be an alternative, if it is seen and copied as such by others. However, truth is, China has never claimed to be an alternative, let alone imposed it upon others.

Nonetheless, even the existence of a distinct model is big enough a challenge to the international political debasement, that is, the Washington Consensus, as it seems.

You are right.

Some times I'm not sure if people really believe it or they are just saying it because of their position. Then again any organisation needs an opposition/mission whether real or imaginary to strengthen vigilance.