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With Chabahar Text Finalised, India’s Dream of a Road to Afghanistan Gathers Speed

Can you do the same for Chabahar? Just so we can compare...........


Yes, but from where to where. Chahbhar is not meant to serve China. It is to serve Indian interest in Afghanistan, CAR and Caucus.

It is difficult to do calculation for Afghanistan as there is no reliable data. For USA, it cost $7200 per container to supply Afghanistan through Pakistan.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=-wneCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT182&lpg=PT182&dq=cost+of+transporting+good+to+kabul+per+ton+by+NATO+via+pakistan&source=bl&ots=Xkkq9RZQFs&sig=LK2xoamZr-piaHgsJtOMmS2_fCU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwih79aR543MAhXGoZQKHXReC3YQ6AEIVTAJ#v=onepage&q=cost of transporting good to kabul per ton by NATO via pakistan&f=false


Compare this with cost of supplying Baku via Chahbar. It would be around $2200 per container, and cost of supplying Chahbar with an Indian container is around $125 per container. For India to supply Caucus with Indian container, costs would be around $2500 per container.

As usual, cost for Afghanistan could not be calculated with any degree of reliability as there is very heavy hazard premium for Afghanistan. Extra $120 that India would incur for supplying Afghanistan via Chahbhar would form only very small part of total cost.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...diterranean-rail-and-sea-corridor-agreed.html

There is already calculations done for using Iran to trade between Mumbai and Helsinki.

Cost using N/S corridor = $4697

Cost using Suez canal = $2194

As we can see, Even Indo-Europe trade via road (using Chahbar) is unfeasible like Pak-China trade.

http://commons.wmu.se/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1289&context=all_dissertations

Similarly, calculations for CAR has also been done. Here CAR would find it cheaper to trade via Iran than Pakistan.

http://www.unescap.org/sites/default/files/pub_1560_ch4.pdf
 
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Looking forward to it after the success of Rafael,tejas and modi Pakistan foreign policy.
Acountry which will not sign a deal for asking price reduction of 1-2 billion dollars to strenthen its defence will spend $20 billion to import hashish and poppy from land of Warlords
Off course we will.
We think even paying $1-2 billion for Rafael to Franc is too high. We don't feel so for Port.

Your dirty conspiracy won't succeed, recently there is a Indian spy caught.
That was most awkward moment of my life when I watched a Chinese trolling in Pakistani style first time in my life
What's next? All terror attacks in India are false flag operations? :omghaha:

Another one.
http://www.india.com/news/world/pakistan-claims-raw-running-special-cell-to-sabotage-cpec-1107674/
:playball:
 
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If Pakistan is playing its cards right it is well on track to cause a massive financial shock to India.

Has Pakistan been liberal in giving transit trade concession to India. the opportunity of Chahbar would still lurk around and act as a negotiating fulcrum to extract more discounts and concessions from Pakistan...

If Pakistan suddenly liberalizes after multi-billion dollar investments in Chahbar it would cause sudden erosion of business and market share at Chahbar as well as massive financial shock to India.

There is a suspicious side to this whole deal that Iran is tracking India for investment in its port rather than doing it itself.

And always remember Iran is under watchful eyes of sanction axe anytime which would have massive implications for both India and Pakistan.

Pakistan will earn during sanctions time on Iran while India will lose.

A port needs two way traffic to make it business competitive for international maritime freighters. Now there is not much Afghanistan and Iran can export so you are looking at ships unloading cargo and returning empty. Which would raise the cost of freight to this port..Just to give you an example of how cost can escalate..

Dubai and Dammam seaport are in close proximity to each other yet it cost half as much than Dammam to ship containers to Dubai. Shipping is a game of economies of scale...volume up..cost down...

China’s existing sea route passes through the risky South China Sea, Pacific Rim, the Strait of Malacca and Sri Lanka, and Chinese vessels have to cruise about 10,000 km to reach the trading partners in the region. But the Gwadar Port will reduce the sea distance to 2,500 km instead of 10,000 km and land distance for Kashgar to 2,800 because Kashgar is 4,500 km from the main Chinese port, the port of Shanghai, while Gwadar is 2800 km from Kashgar. Resultantly, it will not only save time, but also millions of dollars for China.


I dont think you can give that much financial shock to us ,considering the gap of the economy between these two nations .Again Pakistan is not an issue in here .This is ours and Iranians humble effort to increase mutual trade and helping Afghanistan for stand in their own foot without any foreign support and blackmailing.
 
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The province of China that borders Pakistan and provinces of China that borders that province along with their bordering provinces cover 54% of China's landmass and have only 6% of population because they are mostly deserts, mountains, and high altitude plateau. There are no consumers in provinces to develop them.

XinXiang is 2.1 times larger than Pakistan, Tibet is 1.54 times larger, Inner Mongolia 1.48 times larger, Qinghai equal to Pakistan, and Gansu half of Pakistan. People who think that CPEC would be used for trade with China has not fathmoned how big China is. Even Takla Makan deser which lies beyond Kashi is larger than Pakistan.

Apart from that most of cities in Western China are farther from Islamabad than European capital by road. Shaanxi (Taiyuan) is 4900 Km from Islamabad by road, Ningxia (Yinchuan) is 4300 Km, Choquinin is 5000 Km, Ghuzihou (gulyang) is 5500Km away, Yunan(Kuming) is 5900Km, and Sichuan (Chengdu) is 5000Km away from Islamabad.

Compare to this, Distance between Berlin and Islamabad is 6300 K and Paris is 7300 Km by road. People who think that CPEC would lead to trade with Western China need to look at volume of Pakistan-Germany trade by road to fathom its potential.

CPEC is nothing but an insurance policy of China.



Actually I done some off the hand calculations.

This is cost comparison for viability of CPEC.


Distance between Shanghai and Kashghar = 5121 Km

5121 Km - Distance from Shanghai to Kashgar

Distance between Kashghar and Gwadar = 2747 Km

2747 Km - Distance from Kashgar to Gwadar


Average Trucking cost per Ton per Km in China = 5 cents.

http://www.worldbank.org/transport/transportresults/regions/eap/eap-china-output.pdf

Average Trucking cost per Ton per Km in Pakistan = 1.8 cents.

https://www.iisd.org/gsi/sites/default/files/ffs_india_irade_trucking.pdf

These cost are of 2002 and would have become 7 cents for China and 3 cents for Pakistan, just by taking inflation into account.

This is the most conservative calculation as I am not taking into account Hazard premium that nature of Terrain imposes on Pakistan (Karakoram Highway is rated world's fourth most dangerous highway World's 10 dangerous roads | CNN Travel ) and Hazard premium that China has to pay for transporting good through Takla Makan Desert , Kulun Shan mountains range, and Altai Shan mountain range.

But still let us calculate cost of transporting a Tonn of good from Shanghai to Gwadar.

Cost incurred in Chinese territory = 0.07 X 5121 = $358.47

Cost incurred in Pakistani territory = 0.03 X 2747 = $82.41

So total cost from Shanghai to Gwadar for a tonn of goods= $440.88

Now let destination port be Dubai.

Cost of Transporting Dubai to Shanghai = $625 per TEU

http://www.simic.net.cn/news_list.php?lan=en&id=368&flag=cnports&pname=shanghai&page=10

Since standard 1 TEU= 21,600 Kg : Cost of Transporting 1 Ton via sea from Dubai to Shanghai = $28.93

Twenty-foot equivalent unit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Similarly cost from Karachi to Dubai for 1 TEU = $125 (rate for Gwadar are not available as port is not operational)


BusinessDubai.com - Bizneeds

Cost of Transporting 1 Ton from Karachi to Dubai = $5.787


Total cost of Shipping a Ton from Shanghai to Dubai via Gwadar = $446.67

Total cost of Shipping directly from Dubai to Shangahi = $28.93 which is 16 times less than that of Transporting via Gwadar.

Heck Total cost of Transport from Gwadar to Chinese border is more than what would be required for Transport from Dubai to Shanghai.

This is time viability calculation for CPEC.

Let's calculate time. In order to give CPEC some leeway, I am expecting that a Truck would not stop anywhere (No rest for drivers, no checkpoints, no fuel or repair break) and assume that a Truck runs 24 Hours at 30Kmph, and I am neglecting time it would be needed to transfer goods in Gwadar.

Time required for Travel = 262 Hours = 11 Days.

Time required for transport of a container from Dubai to Karachi = 5 days

BusinessDubai.com - Bizneeds

Total time required for overland transport when your drivers and port handlers are superman = 16 days.

Time required to transport a container from Dubai to Shanghai via sea = 15 Days.

Calculating Container Shipping Time


This was an outlier calculation.

Let's be realistic.

Assume that a driver drives for 12 hour per day, it would take and on average take a day extra to go through customs and refuelling stop.

It would take him 91.57 hours to reach Kashghar, which would be equal to 7.7 days or 8.7 days taking pit stops into account.

Let's assume that it takes only a day to transfer cargo from a Pakistani to a Chinese truck. The time spent before that Truck moves towards CHina is 9.7 Hours.

That Truck would take 170 Hours to reach SHanghai from Kashghar. ie 14 days of driving and assuming two days for pit stops, 16 days.

Now we assume that Gwadar system is as efficient as that of Karachi, it would take 6 days to clear import formalities.

Import Clearance Procedure -- Mehran Corporation Karachi Pakistan

Thus the total time it would need to transport goods from Dubai to Shanghai via Gwadar would be 37 days compared to 15 days it would take to reach Dubai from Shanghai via Malacca.

Even reaching border of China-Pakistan would take more time (21 days vs 15 days) than transporting a container from Dubai to remotest part of Chinese seaboard.


This is about growth potential calculation for CPEC:

Following provinces are close to CPEC

1. XinXiang: Area 1664900 Sq Km; Pop 22.09 million

2. Qinghai: Area 720,000 Sq km; Pop 5.58 million

3. Gansu : Area 425,800 Sq Km; Pop 25.64 million

4. Inner Mongolia: Area 1183,000Sq Km; Pop 24.82 million

5. Tibet: Area 1228400 Sq Km; Pop 3.145 million

Total area of these provinces = 5222100 Sq km. This is 54% of Total area of China , and an area 6.6 times that of Pakistan; while its population is just 81 million which is 6% of Chines population and less than half (0.44 times) of Pakistani population.This is the extent of how sparsely populated Western part of China is. Pakistan share border with Takla Makan desert of China.

Highway and Economic corridors brings prosperity when Economic depression of a region is due to that region being cut off from rest of country. In this case, underdevelopment is due to geographical factors, not due to infrastructure factors. Deserts, cold arid Plateaus, and mountains reduce your Economic potential (unless you harness them for tourism like Switzerland).You could not put up factories in desert. You could not built cities in desert (Las Vegas would not count as that city exist because of Hoover dam). An area with such low population density does not have consumer base to build consumption driven economy. You could not build service industry in desert ,or any other low population density area because there is not enough qualified labour at any place,


CPEC is not airdropping in Western Qinghai so that it would have same effect on all of Western China; it is joining China in North-West corner of China ie Western corner of XinXiang (no 10). The only provinces that it could affect are no 10 (XinXiang) and its neighbours no9 (Tibet) ,no 8 (Qinghai) , no 7 (Gansu) in Western China, and no 4 (Inner Mongolia) in Northern China.

I have already counted all these provinces.And I am being generous here. XinXiang itself is so large that CPEC has no chance of affecting even its neighbours.

People usually could not fathom that some provinces (mostly in Western China) are many times larger than even Pakistan itself. XinXiang is 2.1 times larger than Pakistan, Tibet is 1.54 times larger, Inner Mongolia 1.48 times larger, Qinghai equal to Pakistan, and Gansu half of Pakistan.

It need to be understood that Eastern part of Western China is further away from Pakistan that even Europe!

For example capital of Shaanxi (Taiyuan) is as far away from Islamabad by air (3559 Km) as Ankara (3600 Km)

I am yet to understand this optimism of serving Eastern part of Western China.

let's do some analysis. I am calculating Islamabad so that you could get a grasp over distance as Ankara is 4400 Km away from Islamabad by road. and All distance henceforth are by road.


No 3 (Shaanxi), Capital (Taiyuan).

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4904.3 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Tianjin)=943 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6644 Km


No 6 (Ningxia), Capital (Yinchuan)

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4337 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Tianjin)= 1200 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6077 Km

No 1 (Chongquing) , No capital

Distance of Chongquibg from Islamabad = 5069 Km

Distance of Chongquing from nearest Chinese seaport = 0 Km. After construction of Three Gorges Dam, barring largest cargo Ship, Ocean going ships could sail upto Chongquing.

But still distance between Chongquing and Shanghai is 1689 Km

Distance of Chongquing from Gwadar = 6843 Km

no 4 (Guzihou) , capital (gulyang)

Distance of capital from Islamabad = 5459 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Beihai) = 796 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 7199 Km

No 5 (Yunnan) , capital (Kuming)


Distance of capital from Islamabad = 5859 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Beihai) = 1024 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 7635 Km


No 2 (Sichuan) , capital (Chengdu)


Distance of capital from Islamabad = 4976 Km

Distance of capital from nearest Chinese seaport (Chongquing) = 326 Km and (Shanghai) = 1968 Km

Distance of capital from Gwadar = 6716 Km


All these Western provinces of China are farther away from Gwadar than Western Europe is from Pakistan by Road. Distance between Islamabad and Berlin by road is 6353 Km , and of Paris is 7300 Km; nearly of the order of distance of Gwadar from any of Eastern provinces of Western China.

Anyway China does not even intend to use Gwadar for these provinces. It already has a corridor via Myanmaar (Yunnan border Myanmar) for redundancy.


I could do same calculation for Chahbar too. It would take max half an hour for me, though I do not see any point as India is developing Chahbar as strategic port, rather than for financial benefits. Similar to what China is doing with Gwadar.

Excellent analysis brother.
 
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I could do same calculation for Chahbar too. It would take max half an hour for me, though I do not see any point as India is developing Chahbar as strategic port, rather than for financial benefits. Similar to what China is doing with Gwadar.

Chahbahar is needed as a strategic alternative given Pakistani penchant for imagination in geo-politics.
 
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@Vyom care to comment?

I was traveling so couldn't be online.
On topic : On most points ,@Immortan.Joe has made good calculations about Gwader (why is he banned ??) and gives an apt commercial idea of the project. His post on Chahbahar is on target.

Land routes will be costly than sea transport, that's given as unfathomable scales of cargo can be shipped via cargo ships. trains and road transport are simply inefficient at those scales. the only purpose hat these terminals serve are strategic, and costs are not that much of concern here. I had read a analysis on this let me dig the links. Ill post here.

 
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Indian bureaucracy and Indian laziness will take the deal another twenty years to get signed...
 
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can easily be sabotaged through sunni baloch groups inside iran and through haqqani talibs and afghan talibs inside afghanistan ( khush mat ho ziada dear indians and iranians )
 
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Indias dream road dependent on PAKISTANS approval.....:o: :rofl:.

Wow!! Get serious dude.. We dint even require your permission to help Afghanistan all these years, how do you think we need your approval to build something in Iran who are more powerful than you guys in every aspect.

can easily be sabotaged through sunni baloch groups inside iran and through haqqani talibs and afghan talibs inside afghanistan ( khush mat ho ziada dear indians and iranians )

Dont worry. You guys have become too obvious for us and the Iranains..

Indian bureaucracy and Indian laziness will take the deal another twenty years to get signed...

Well well well.. That are things of past.
 
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Wow!! Get serious dude.. We dint even require your permission to help Afghanistan all these years, how do you think we need your approval to build something in Iran who are more powerful than you guys in every aspect.



Dont worry. You guys have become too obvious for us and the Iranains..



Well well well.. That are things of past.
your fate is the same that you felt in the 80s when russia left your sorry and demoralised RAW in afghanistan and you were only confined to your rat hole in new dehli
 
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your fate is the same that you felt in the 80s when russia left your sorry and demoralised RAW in afghanistan and you were only confined to your rat hole in new dehli
Ur country is still paying for it ! what harm it has done to india !
 
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your fate is the same that you felt in the 80s when russia left your sorry and demoralised RAW in afghanistan and you were only confined to your rat hole in new dehli

But that made your entire country a Rat hole. India is one of the top 10 major economies, one of the top 10 manufacturing countries, No 1 FDI destination, Fastest growing major economy. And you guys are improving your ranks in nothing but the list of failed nations.
 
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can easily be sabotaged through sunni baloch groups inside iran and through haqqani talibs and afghan talibs inside afghanistan ( khush mat ho ziada dear indians and iranians )
your fate is the same that you felt in the 80s when russia left your sorry and demoralised RAW in afghanistan and you were only confined to your rat hole in new dehli

You are still living in the 80s dude, pop out of your bubble already.
We are a BRIC nation now and our defense forces are growing at an impeccable rate.
You can't stop us, when we talked about Chabahar years ago you people insisted that it'll never be built, and now it is ready and you all are saying you'll use terrorists which we all can surmise will fail too and what will you people say then?
 
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