Winter War 1939-1940

[dexter]

Historical documentary continues with a video on the Winter War, as the Soviet Red Army attempts to break through in Karelia and around Ladoga only to meet with the desperate Finnish defense.

 

[Nilgiri]

To really know about it, you got to have a good long talk with a Finn a few times when they are ready to open up on it to you (generally takes a few years of good friendship).

Stories are passed down to them (in personal way) and still quite fresh and visceral in memory.

Same for the continuation war....and the final bitter peace achieved with the Soviets....and the karma of outlasting them as a country.

 

[Nilgiri]

Actually this video's visuals of the battlefront has some interesting parallels with discussion of terrain + logistics we had @Joe Shearer @PanzerKiel @Signalian

 

[Joe Shearer]

To really know about it, you got to have a good long talk with a Finn a few times when they are ready to open up on it to you (generally takes a few years of good friendship).

Stories are passed down to them (in personal way) and still quite fresh and visceral in memory.

Same for the continuation war....and the final bitter peace achieved with the Soviets....and the karma of outlasting them as a country.

This is possibly the most extraordinary war in modern history, of a totally outnumbered, small nation keeping a huge adversary at bay with a ferocious defence.

Whatever the formal outcome, and the loss of Karelia to the Soviet Union, later Russia, the verdict of history must be that David won, and Goliath lost. As @Nilgiri points out, it was not an accidental victory. War-fighting had a lot to do with it, but so did the more humdrum issues of terrain, very important, and logistics, most important.

In South Asia, we neither think of terrain, as determining our war-craft, nor of logistics. War is not just about shiny new toys, and the difference between a smooth-bore tank gun and a rifled one; if it had been so, one side should have prevailed in every encounter over its larger but ill-equipped adversary. Not every David wins.

 

[Nilgiri]

This is possibly the most extraordinary war in modern history, of a totally outnumbered, small nation keeping a huge adversary at bay with a ferocious defence.

Whatever the formal outcome, and the loss of Karelia to the Soviet Union, later Russia, the verdict of history must be that David won, and Goliath lost. As @Nilgiri points out, it was not an accidental victory. War-fighting had a lot to do with it, but so did the more humdrum issues of terrain, very important, and logistics, most important.

In South Asia, we neither think of terrain, as determining our war-craft, nor of logistics. War is not just about shiny new toys, and the difference between a smooth-bore tank gun and a rifled one; if it had been so, one side should have prevailed in every encounter over its larger but ill-equipped adversary. Not every David wins.

It did help Mannerheim was trained and officered under Tsarist Russia. A whole lot.

He knew their standard playbook from the ground up to the minute detail (the later commie purging can only do so much), they didnt quite know his...or how he planned to evolve it as requirements/realities changed.

As for the guys on the ground, there are some excellent Finnish movies on this subject (Talvisota stands out especially as it speaks to the visceral nature that many Finns reference to this day of just how duty/conscription/brutality of war impose heavily on family, community and faith).

 

[Kambojaric]

The Finns basically did a Russia on the Russians i.e. defend their frozen land bravely until the enemy's supply lines fall apart and their morale collapses.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It did help Mannerheim was trained and officered under Tsarist Russia. A whole lot.

He knew their standard playbook from the ground up to the minute detail (the later commie purging can only do so much), they didnt quite know his...or how he planned to evolve it as requirements/realities changed.

As for the guys on the ground, there are some excellent Finnish movies on this subject (Talvisota stands out especially as it speaks to the visceral nature that many Finns reference to this day of just how duty/conscription/brutality of war impose heavily on family, community and faith).

Did you know Mannerheim's niece was Kazini of Sikkim?

 

[Nilgiri]

Did you know Mannerheim's niece was Kazini of Sikkim?

Did not know that at all. #Joetrivia

 

[T-123456]

Did you know Mannerheim's niece was Kazini of Sikkim?

How is that possible?

 

[Joe Shearer]

How is that possible?

She was White Russian, landed up in Burma, fled to India from the Japanese, met the Kazi (the second highest noble in Sikkim next to the Chogyal) and he found life not worth living without her. She had a signed photograph of Mannerheim in the drawing room, and that of course proves nothing, but it did establish local colour, as authors put it.

Imagine her mortification when the highest noble, the Chogyal, married an American socialite named Hope Cooke, who immediately lost no time in showing the Kazini her place in the hierarchy (no. 2!!!). Imagine also her delight when the Chogyal was deposed in a nocturnal coup by the Indian government, the administration was put into the format of any other Indian state (the Gyalmo, Hope Cooke, lost all her privileges), and her husband, the Kazi, became the first democratically elected Chief Minister.

 

[vostok]

The Finns basically did a Russia on the Russians i.e. defend their frozen land bravely until the enemy's supply lines fall apart and their morale collapses.

It was not so hard for the Finns, because they were part of Russia until 1918 and their commander in chief and many generals and officers were from Russian army.
They did a Russia except one little thing - the Finns lost the war.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It was not so hard for the Finns, because they were part Russia until 1918 and their commander in chief and many generals and officers were from Russian army.
They did a Russia except one little thing - the Finns lost the war.

Ah, but what a fight!

 

[Broccoli]

It was not so hard for the Finns, because they were part of Russia until 1918 and their commander in chief and many generals and officers were from Russian army.
They did a Russia except one little thing - the Finns lost the war.

Not being part of corrupted Soviet Union was a good win enough. Back in the day when "eastinghouses" were build Soviet engineers and workers thought that average Finnish supermarkets were a capitalist plot to make Soviet Unions stores look bad... lol.

 

[Nein]

Soviets were so garbage at that time only until the 1942s that they started to get better.

When ww2 was won the Soviet army was vastly different to the one in 1939 to 1941.

In other words they became better and got their act together which allowed them to defeat the Germans and get revenge on the Finns.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Soviets were so garbage at that time only until the 1942s that they started to get better.

When ww2 was won the Soviet army was vastly different to the one in 1939 to 1941.

In other words they became better and got their act together which allowed them to defeat the Germans and get revenge on the Finns.

Apart from many factors, the purge of 1937 onwards was a major factor.