Will never do anything detrimental to India’s security: Russia

[The Great One]

Su-30 MKIs are still cheaper than Rafale/Eurofilghter.

Not to mention far less capable.

He is not talking about China and the relations of them to China are far different. Russian can't afford to lose China, just as they can't lose us, which is why they only would intervene if things goes really bad. As long as Russia remains to offer us more than our opponents I'm ok with them making some additional money, since that's what everybody does.

Will never do anything detrimental to India’s security: Russia

I knew that German worlds are long (Lebensabschnittpartner?) but didn't know that the German translation magically brings out the context and hidden meaning of English statements.


Russian foreign policy is much more closely aligned with China's and with that freak Putin at helm is also increasingly becoming dependent on them. China is a much bigger economic partner, much larger market, much bigger investor, much more global clout. India on the other hand is getting very closely aligned with western powers, is constantly reducing Russian footprint in the Indian defense market by replacing Russian systems with western.

No doubt that 'if things go really bad' they'll side with China and not us.

Their defense interaction with China might seem muted compared to ours but it is only so because China is increasingly indigenouzing and sourcing its weapons from domestic sources and because Russians are wary of Chinese RE'ing their stuff. Also China doesn't purchase a lot of old Russian junk (Adm. Gorkshov, Nerpa etc.) because they had better junk (Varyag, Han class etc). Just because we are part of PAK-FA programme doesn't mean that they prefer us over China, it simply means that China didn't want to be part of the program. Ask your self that if you were Russia, who would you pick to partner in your defense program - a country that shares a similar world view as yours (anti-western imperialism), will soon become the biggest economy in the world and is your neighbor...........or a country that remains somewhat non-aligned (with a serious western tilt), regularly exercises with your enemy, buys their stuff, has various JV's with them and has a struggling economy incomparable in scale or future growth to Option 1. WHO would you pick? WHOOOOOOOOOO?

 

[sancho]

Russian foreign policy is much more closely aligned with China's

Russia's foreign policy "was" far more open to the west just as ours and therefor not limited to the relations to China. Russia and India knows about the political and economic advantages with China in the BRICS, but that doesn't limit the foreign policy to them, that's why there is no joint defence relation between Russia and China, just an economic relation through defence exports to China, which is pretty different to Russias defence relation towards India as seen in the past.

is constantly reducing Russian footprint in the Indian defense market by replacing Russian systems with western.

That's a myth! We are diversifying, which is a smart move by India to not be overdependent on Russia, but by far are not moving away from them. Politically we remain much closer to Russia than to any western country and even our defence procurements will remain mainly based on Russian techs and weapons for the next 30 years at least. We might spend more today on US products, but they come in low numbers, therefor have less importance in operational terms. The 12 x C130Js come with good capabilities and a high price tech, but the 45 MTAs we already have on order will do the bulk of the work and get India far more in industrial terms too. That will bind us to Russia far longer and on a much deeper level than ever before and compared to what the US and even most of the western countries can or want to provide us.
So we are not reducing Russian systems, but improving the relations to Russia from prefered export country to partner level, while most western countries remain to see us as an export country only.

No doubt that 'if things go really bad' they'll side with China and not us.

They have proven the opposite in the past and since China also poses a threat to their borders, that's more than doubtful. India in all terms is much closer and useful to them and since we remain to be industrially behind them, it's also in their interest to remain with us as a partner, than with China that might surpass them within the next decade.

Also China doesn't purchase a lot of old Russian junk

Well, depends on what you mean with junk, but they still procure Kilo subs, Su 30s, Ka 31, Mi 17, Mi 26 numerous aircraft engines and now might even go for Su 35s and Amur class, nothing special that wouldn't be available to us, while their NG techs and systems are limited to us only. Nerpa btw is not old, but actually completely new, they didn't had the money to finish the construction.

 

[The Great One]

You missed the crux of my post
Never mind

Russia's foreign policy "was" far more open to the west just as ours and therefor not limited to the relations to China. Russia and India knows about the political and economic advantages with China in the BRICS, but that doesn't limit the foreign policy to them, that's why there is no joint defence relation between Russia and China, just an economic relation through defence exports to China, which is pretty different to Russias defence relation towards India as seen in the past.

Whatever that was, the point stands that Russia and China co-operate extensively in the UN (joint-vetoing everything), want to remove/reduce global petro-dollar hegemony, western hegemony on banking and finance. China's partnership in these fields is paramount as Russia by itself can't do jack. With the sanctions, Russia's economic security will steadily fall in the hands of China as even though India would disobey the sanctions, it is simply no match to China's economic muscle,not to mention geography.

That's a myth! We are diversifying, which is a smart move by India to not be overdependent on Russia, but by far are not moving away from them. Politically we remain much closer to Russia than to any western country and even our defence procurements will remain mainly based on Russian techs and weapons for the next 30 years at least. We might spend more today on US products, but they come in low numbers, therefor have less importance in operational terms. The 12 x C130Js come with good capabilities and a high price tech, but the 45 MTAs we already have on order will do the bulk of the work and get India far more in industrial terms too. That will bind us to Russia far longer and on a much deeper level than ever before and compared to what the US and even most of the western countries can or want to provide us.
So we are not reducing Russian systems, but improving the relations to Russia from prefered export country to partner level, while most western countries remain to see us as an export country only.

Doesn't disprove my point at alllllllllllllll. While strategically important projects in co-operation with Russians exist (Arihant, Akula, Gorkshov, FGFA), Russian involvement in Indian procurements is steadily fizzing out. India now has multi-party tendors now and turns out that Russians don't do so well in multi-party tendors. FYI They are at No.3 right now in our import list already behind America.

They have proven the opposite in the past and since China also poses a threat to their borders, that's more than doubtful. India in all terms is much closer and useful to them and since we remain to be industrially behind them, it's also in their interest to remain with us as a partner, than with China that might surpass them within the next decade.

Ridiculous. Russia and China have resolved all border dispute way back in the 80's. China has already surpassed them. Any apprehensions that Russia may have left over from the past will have to be swallowed shut and they'll have to act based on present reality which as I said above sees a lot of co-operation with China.

Well, depends on what you mean with junk, but they still procure Kilo subs, Su 30s, Ka 31, Mi 17, Mi 26 numerous aircraft engines and now might even go for Su 35s and Amur class, nothing special that wouldn't be available to us, while their NG techs and systems are limited to us only. Nerpa btw is not old, but actually completely new, they didn't had the money to finish the construction.

That is what I said in the 1st post. The reference to AG and Akula was to preempt any attempt to showcase them as pointers to the Glorious Indo-Russian friendship.

 

[punit]

On World stage position of allies is changing and new partnerships are forming, Russia need Pakistan as they know that every passing day India is becoming less dependent on them and now cozying with US and west, therefore they are also shifting slowly to find new interest based partnership, if current situation prevails like this and India keep milking Russia for tech then one day India will no longer need them, as US and west already offering more advance tech with TOT to them, but this will be slow divorce will take at least a decade or more but they will remain friends not become foes.

how much purchase power you have ?

 

[SrNair]

India is better in terms of weapons building less dependent on other countries but it does not mean that India don't need others support, because if you did not need US approval then you had attacked Pakistan after Mumbai incident of 2008, still India is not as big as you think.

India didnt attack you because of your nukes and we have a lot ofdevelopment work for our nation.

 

[Basel]

India didnt attack you because of your nukes and we have a lot ofdevelopment work for our nation.

Read book of your own leader who was in Rajeev Gandhi govt. when Zia used cricket diplomacy, it will tell you how effective our nukes are when it comes to stop a war specially invasion.

What happened between Zia and Rajiv Gandhi

 

[SrNair]

Read book of your own leader who was in Rajeev Gandhi govt. when Zia used cricket diplomacy, it will tell you how effective our nukes are when it comes to stop a war specially invasion.

What happened between Zia and Rajiv Gandhi

We dont need others support for mobilizing our military.

 

[Basel]

We dont need others support for mobilizing our military.

yes you do, US did not allowed you to attack Pakistan since 2002.

 

[Parmanu]

yes you do, US did not allowed you to attack Pakistan since 2002.

errr...you are confusing India with Pakistan here.

 

[SQ8]

errr...you are confusing India with Pakistan here.

Nope, the US played a key role in calling of an Indian thrust about to start in the Thar area..
First, they called the Indian Ambassador and told them to back off... and then said that if they still went ahead with the attack.. the US will as an ally has provided sat imagery real time to Pakistan(which allowed the defences to be readied here).. and will not have any objections if Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey or China pumps in equipment.

There were many reasons Op Parakaram was a flop and also sparked the whole IBG and "Cold start" idea.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Nope, the US played a key role in calling of an Indian thrust about to start in the Thar area..
First, they called the Indian Ambassador and told them to back off... and then said that if they still went ahead with the attack.. the US will as an ally has provided sat imagery real time to Pakistan(which allowed the defences to be readied here).. and will not have any objections if Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey or China pumps in equipment.

There were many reasons Op Parakaram was a flop and also sparked the whole IBG and "Cold start" idea.

1 Well there is absolutely no proof that any such thing happened

US supporting Pakistan even if indirectly would have definitely
leaked out after so many years and whole India US bonhomie would have collapsed

2 On the contrary US withdrew its citizens from India
SIXTY Thousand of them
and all western countries did follow suit ie US created a scare of Nuclear war

3 China did supply weapons to Pakistan but India Had (even after the said weapons landed in Pakistan) and still has an UNASSAILABLE lead over Pakistan

The other countries you mentioned did not offer anything

4 Parakram was Not a flop

At least a few Pakistani misconceptions about India's SIZE and strength got cleared
SInce it was a full mobilisation bigger than even Operation Barbarossa

Plus it gave birth to Cold start the New age doctrine in the age of Nukes

 

[Parmanu]

and then said that if they still went ahead with the attack.. the US will as an ally has provided sat imagery real time to Pakistan(which allowed the defences to be readied here).. and will not have any objections if Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey or China pumps in equipment.

So, it was our decision still, right ? with or without US pressure..

And it wasn't the key for the attack which never happened. Real time sat imagery and f-16s and bullets and bombs from jordan saudi arabia and china is something we know might happen, with or without US support. we are prepared for that too. if we really wanna go to war, you think we will not discount that ? even today ?

Op Parakram was not meant to be a war. Parakram means strength. We didn't go to war because of reasons which will be unknown for another 30-35 years, if ever the papers are declassified.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@Oscar

The role played by US and their anxieties were as follows

1 US concerns were mainly about Karachi port getting blocked
US used that port plus the land route from
Karachi to Peshawar would have been affected in case of hostilities
ie US convoys would have been hit by IAF

2 Pakistan had begun withdrawing from Western frontier and US operations in Afghanistan
were getting affected

3 US was instrumental in the" Televised declaration " by General Musharraf
of No support to terrorists that too TWICE in January and June

After the whole thing passed away India US relations improved
because India was NOT seen as an aggressor BUT as a victim of terrorism

The Nuclear deal and the offer of F16 /F18 all happened after Parakram

Compare it to Pakistan getting Presler Amendment in 1990 AFTER
threatening a 1000 year war with India

 

[Basel]

errr...you are confusing India with Pakistan here.

I was trying to say that since 2002 US has not allowed India to attack Pakistan.

 

[sancho]

Doesn't disprove my point at alllllllllllllll...

Of course it does, because not the ammount of money is important, but what share the productions have in our forces! Take the ammount of C17s, C130s, add even Ch47 and Ah64 to it and compare it with the share of Mig 29s, Su 30s, Mi17 and IL76 and you realize where the bulk of our military equipment comes from. Not included several hundred MTA and FGFAs. The US doesn't even come at 2nd place, since they lost most of the multi vendor deals to Europeans either (MMRCA, LUH, VVIP helis, basic trainer, or even the tanker deal where Boeing refused to enter...). So it's just nonsense of the media to claim we would route towards the US or even away from Russia.

1. Russia - relation improved to the next level into partnerships
2. Europe / Israel - prefered choice for imports to diversify from Russian dependance
3. US - new alternative that currently is limited to US laws and restrictions, therefor only important in specific parts and low numbers