Wikileaks revelations - realistic view of our army

[Newguy123]

Hi,

Have any of you guys read the Wikileaks cables? I just went through the cables from US Embassy in Islamabad, they generally cover the period from 2000- 2010 and are very revealing on multiple dimensions.

I would encourage you to read the cables at the below website. It will take 5-6 hours to go through the key ones...look for the ones marked secret as they will generally contain the more interesting information. Also the titles of the cable will give you an idea of the general content.

wikileaks.org/origin/129_0.html


Key findings from my reading of the cables indicate:
-There is an air corridor above pakistan airspace that US is allowed to use (presumably to go from afghanistan to US aircraft carriers or bases in gulf etc.) and that as late as 2008 or so the corridor had traffic of as many as 150 aircraft per day. (I personally suspect that this could have been how US got into pakistan for the UBL mission, using the corridor for part of the way in and then going off course where needed...leaving us with too little time to react)

-Pakistan military's equipment is quite old and highly dependent on US for spare parts. Cables reveal how majority of Cobra gunship fleet is not operational as well as how the air defense radars are more than 25 years old and need spare parts from US every so often.

-SSG are not all they are hyped up to be. Apparently US has trainers at tarbela helping train them even on things like sniper training, etc. and they are described as being still on the learning curve based on performance in tribal areas

-F-16s come with strings attached (e.g. specific basing requirements for the block 52)

Although we all like to believe that the pak army is the best, etc., I think the cables provide a reality check as they are frank assessments by US embassy in messages back to washington DC (and were never meant to be made public)

Please let us NOT get into a discussion of whether the cables are authentic or not as that argument will never end. Some people will claim they are fake, but I believe it is rather difficult to fake 250,000 cables with vey precise information, dates, conversations, etc. to date and no one has claimed that conversations quoted are incorrect or events stated did not take place.

I am happy to post links to specific cables if members are interested.

 

[KingMamba]

Interesting indeed.

 

[revojam]

Whats more interesting is this is his first post

 

[WAR-rior]

Hi,

Have any of you guys read the Wikileaks cables? I just went through the cables from US Embassy in Islamabad, they generally cover the period from 2000- 2010 and are very revealing on multiple dimensions.

I would encourage you to read the cables at the below website. It will take 5-6 hours to go through the key ones...look for the ones marked secret as they will generally contain the more interesting information. Also the titles of the cable will give you an idea of the general content.

wikileaks.org/origin/129_0.html


Key findings from my reading of the cables indicate:
-There is an air corridor above pakistan airspace that US is allowed to use (presumably to go from afghanistan to US aircraft carriers or bases in gulf etc.) and that as late as 2008 or so the corridor had traffic of as many as 150 aircraft per day. (I personally suspect that this could have been how US got into pakistan for the UBL mission, using the corridor for part of the way in and then going off course where needed...leaving us with too little time to react)

-Pakistan military's equipment is quite old and highly dependent on US for spare parts. Cables reveal how majority of Cobra gunship fleet is not operational as well as how the air defense radars are more than 25 years old and need spare parts from US every so often.

-SSG are not all they are hyped up to be. Apparently US has trainers at tarbela helping train them even on things like sniper training, etc. and they are described as being still on the learning curve based on performance in tribal areas

-F-16s come with strings attached (e.g. specific basing requirements for the block 52)

Although we all like to believe that the pak army is the best, etc., I think the cables provide a reality check as they are frank assessments by US embassy in messages back to washington DC (and were never meant to be made public)

Please let us NOT get into a discussion of whether the cables are authentic or not as that argument will never end. Some people will claim they are fake, but I believe it is rather difficult to fake 250,000 cables with vey precise information, dates, conversations, etc. to date and no one has claimed that conversations quoted are incorrect or events stated did not take place.

I am happy to post links to specific cables if members are interested.

Bolded parts are something which are not limited to only American Embassys but also available to Indian Intelligence. This is what Indian Defence guyz know very well. Dont know why are Pakistanis unknown to this?

 

[KingMamba]

Whats more interesting is this is his first post

He got excited.

Anyway welcome to OP.

 

[airomerix]

Nothing new actually.

 

[jaibi]

It's good that something we already suspected came with some evidence. No army is better than its nation's economy and sadly despite the warrior spirit of our nation's armed forces our economy and 'allies' would doom us in battle as they have done so repeatedly!

 

[Jango]

-There is an air corridor above pakistan airspace that US is allowed to use (presumably to go from afghanistan to US aircraft carriers or bases in gulf etc.) and that as late as 2008 or so the corridor had traffic of as many as 150 aircraft per day. (I personally suspect that this could have been how US got into pakistan for the UBL mission, using the corridor for part of the way in and then going off course where needed...leaving us with too little time to react)

Nothing new here. Everybody knows of that corridor. If you have that A/C frequency radio, you can frequently hear them. Whiskey etc etc. They usually come in from Qatar area or Oman, get into Pak airspace from Balochistan, keep on going in that area over the Balochistan-Sindh boundary and then make an exit through KPK. It all varies though on conditions.

-Pakistan military's equipment is quite old and highly dependent on US for spare parts. Cables reveal how majority of Cobra gunship fleet is not operational as well as how the air defense radars are more than 25 years old and need spare parts from US every so often.

I would be having doubts over the bolded part. There were some problems a few years back, but now they are well and good, atleast the majority of them. And there is a reason why PA/PAF is moving towards third parties and other places for spares and diversifying there asset base.

-SSG are not all they are hyped up to be. Apparently US has trainers at tarbela helping train them even on things like sniper training, etc. and they are described as being still on the learning curve based on performance in tribal areas

-F-16s come with strings attached (e.g. specific basing requirements for the block 52)

Again nothing new.

So nothing all that surprising or new here, atleast the parts you posted and some that I read. Will give it a detailed look sometime though!

 

[Newguy123]

He got excited.

Anyway welcome to OP.

Thanks for the welcome. While this is my first post, I have been reading the forums for a while and found them quite useful to stay up to date on defence info.

 

[Gandalf]

and not to forget that PAF personnel were sabotaging F-16's of PAF.

 

[Newguy123]

Nothing new actually.

I agree that there is nothing earth shattering about the news but the level of detail and confirmation is interesting as some things have historically not been confirmed by government of pakistan.

For example, I am reproducing below the Dec 2007 cable about the air corridor which I found to be more revealing than anything I had read to date on the topic.

wikileaks.org/cable/2007/12/07ISLAMABAD5283.html
------------------------
S E C R E T ISLAMABAD 005283

SIPDIS

SIPDIS

E.O. 12958: DECL: 12/14/2017
TAGS: PGOV PREL PK
SUBJECT: PAKISTAN: ATTEMPTED INTERCEPTS OF COALITION
AIRCRAFT

Classified By: Anne W. Patterson, Reasons 1.4 (b), (d)

1. (S) SUMMARY. On December 11, the Pakistani Air Force
(PAF) Liaison Officer (LNO) to the Office of the Defense
Representative (ODRP) told the ODRP Air Cell that PAF
aircraft had launched to intercept a Coalition aircraft that
had crossed the Afghanistan-Pakistan border via the standard
Coalition air corridor. The aircraft was clearly a Coalition
airplane. General Helmly has sent a stiff letter to the
Chairman JCS and the head of the Air Force and requested an
urgent meeting. This action could have resulted in serious
consequences, so Post is raising the issue with Pakistan
senior military leadership. This is the second incident of
this type. END SUMMARY.

2. (S) At 0602Z on December 11, the Pakistan military
detected an aircraft within the established ("the boulevard")
airspace that serves as the flight corridor for Coalition
forces through Pakistani airspace. (Approximately 150
Coalition aircraft traverse the "the boulevard" each day.)
The aircraft entered Pakistan's airspace from Afghanistan per
established procedures, but its transponder code (or
"squawking") failed to identify it as one of those scheduled
to cross the border. Meanwhile, the U.S. CENTCOM Air Cell
located at Post was working to establish the identity of the
specific aircraft.

3. (S) Shortly after 0700Z the Pakistan Air Force (PAF)
Liaison Officer (LNO) reported that Pakistani fighters were
scrambling to intercept the aircraft. A few minutes later
PAF was notified that the plane had been positively
identified by the Air Cell. The PAF LNO now says the
interceptors never launched.

4. (S) We are reporting this because it is not the first
incident where the PAF has launched or prepared to launch
interceptors against what were clearly Coalition aircraft,
but which were not previously identified on an air tasking
order or were squawking an incorrect code. Such incidents
have the potential to result in a serious international
incident. Scrambling armed fighters to intercept armed or
support Coalition aircraft creates an unnecessarily dangerous
situation. Any aircraft entering from Afghanistan can safely
be presumed to be a Coalition asset as the airspace is
monitored and controlled by ISAF.

5. (S) The US CENTCOM Air Cell located at Post is also
following up with appropriate ISAF elements to address the
fact that the aircraft in question was not adhering to all
established procedures for flying the corridor. However, the
pilot's failure to squawk the correct code only led to
difficulty in identifying the exact aircraft - multiple other
indicators identified it as Coalition aircraft, especially by
flying within the Pakistan prescribed and approved corridor,
squawking in the clear, and demonstrating no aggressive or
threatening posture.

6. (S) We are engaging with GoP to address this issue. ODRP
Chief has drafted a message stressing our concerns and citing
the dangers of such intercepts to Pakistan's Chairman of
Joint Chiefs of Staff Tariq Majeed and Air Chief Marshall
Tanvir, and will raise in meetings as appropriate.
PATTERSON
----------------------------------

 

[Newguy123]

I would be having doubts over the bolded part. There were some problems a few years back, but now they are well and good, atleast the majority of them. And there is a reason why PA/PAF is moving towards third parties and other places for spares and diversifying there asset base.

The cable related to Cobra gunships is several years old, so it may very well be that the problems have been overcome.

 

[livingdead]

Welcome newguy.

 

[AUz]

Well nothing new. Whats new here? lol...

SSG getting training from U.S military? Well, even before that, SSGs used to go to America for military training. Even now, we have many Pakistani officers/soldiers doing different courses in UK, U.S military academies etc..Everyone does that. Even our saffron enemy...

Pakistani military is designed to take on indian threat, which it can easily since indian Army is so junk that their tanks dont even have night vision..lmao..but an American looking at Pakistan military will definitely call it "old" ..duhh

 

[Ayush]

Hi,

Have any of you guys read the Wikileaks cables? I just went through the cables from US Embassy in Islamabad, they generally cover the period from 2000- 2010 and are very revealing on multiple dimensions.

I would encourage you to read the cables at the below website. It will take 5-6 hours to go through the key ones...look for the ones marked secret as they will generally contain the more interesting information. Also the titles of the cable will give you an idea of the general content.

wikileaks.org/origin/129_0.html


Key findings from my reading of the cables indicate:
-There is an air corridor above pakistan airspace that US is allowed to use (presumably to go from afghanistan to US aircraft carriers or bases in gulf etc.) and that as late as 2008 or so the corridor had traffic of as many as 150 aircraft per day. (I personally suspect that this could have been how US got into pakistan for the UBL mission, using the corridor for part of the way in and then going off course where needed...leaving us with too little time to react)

-Pakistan military's equipment is quite old and highly dependent on US for spare parts. Cables reveal how majority of Cobra gunship fleet is not operational as well as how the air defense radars are more than 25 years old and need spare parts from US every so often.

-SSG are not all they are hyped up to be. Apparently US has trainers at tarbela helping train them even on things like sniper training, etc. and they are described as being still on the learning curve based on performance in tribal areas

-F-16s come with strings attached (e.g. specific basing requirements for the block 52)

Although we all like to believe that the pak army is the best, etc., I think the cables provide a reality check as they are frank assessments by US embassy in messages back to washington DC (and were never meant to be made public)

Please let us NOT get into a discussion of whether the cables are authentic or not as that argument will never end. Some people will claim they are fake, but I believe it is rather difficult to fake 250,000 cables with vey precise information, dates, conversations, etc. to date and no one has claimed that conversations quoted are incorrect or events stated did not take place.

I am happy to post links to specific cables if members are interested.

welcome newguy.

a very nice thread. hope to see many such threads from you.