Why's IAF unhappy about Tejas' Thrust to Weight while ok with Mirage-2000s?

[Ping]

The IAFs double standards on Tejas is glaring to say the least. One of the primary IAF's criticism of Tejas was that it is heavy and its thrust to weight is low.

The thrust to weight ratio of Mirage-2000, the fighter which they adore, is more or less equal to Tejas, but they still insist on better engines for Tejas? Why this obsession with only Tejas? They are perfectly Happy with Mirage-2000's T/W which is more or less the same as Tejas. Tejas is our first project(Marut designed by German), so there will be hiccups here and there. Every one who is new to Aircraft designing will face this and IAF should be more reasonable. Hell even china which is more experienced than us which designed/copied and built the Thunder, the JF-17 has even lower thrust to weight than tejas. J-10 has only a little advantage of Thrust to weight compared to Tejas. It's not huge.

Why can't the IAF be more reasonable and understanding? Are they spoiled with too much foreign maal?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...as-mirage-2000s-close-combat-performance.html

Try to make your comments technically oriented please!!

 

[rockstarIN]

IAF is not happy because they did not get the plane for their flight testing etc. They will see LCA in Feb 2013 air exercise and I believe that they would love it once they feel its performance.

LCA suppose to be match the capabilities of Mirage ang Gripen C/D

From my technical POV TEJAS is role model For Indian Planes, a good and Perfect plane equal to eurofighters! Nothing less!

-----------

 

[Tangent]

...IAF will start liking Tejas, when they get their hands (both) on it . Right now, they are skeptical , because of our poor record in developing tactical systems...., they are taking extra precautions..

..Also, ignore the trolls...

 

[arp2041]

Try to make your comments technically oriented please!!

sancho is ur man

 

[sexy gun]

Better than Russian/Chini junk anyways

lets keep it ontopic...

I think IAF has already enough variety in their stable.. They will like to switch to a new platform only when it is better than the existing platforms by some substantial margins. This is because for IAF the REAL cost will include new training modules, overhaul of their strategies based on fighter strength points etc.. notwithstanding the continuous innovation they will need the ADA to come up with to prevent the platform from ageing over the years...

All this factors play a decisive role in todays world where wars are short and high intensity.

 

[Safriz]

Tejas took too long to develop,and now that it has finally matured,IAF has better options to go for.

 

[GORKHALI]

The IAFs double standards on Tejas is glaring to say the least. One of the primary IAF's criticism of Tejas was that it is heavy and its thrust to weight is low.

The thrust to weight ratio of Mirage-2000, the fighter which they adore, is more or less equal to Tejas, but they still insist on better engines for Tejas? Why this obsession with only Tejas? They are perfectly Happy with Mirage-2000's T/W which is more or less the same as Tejas. Tejas is our first project(Marut designed by German), so there will be hiccups here and there. Every one who is new to Aircraft designing will face this and IAF should be more reasonable. Hell even china which is more experienced than us which designed/copied and built the Thunder, the JF-17 has even lower thrust to weight than tejas. J-10 has only a little advantage of Thrust to weight compared to Tejas. It's not huge.

Why can't the IAF be more reasonable and understanding? Are they spoiled with too much foreign maal?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...as-mirage-2000s-close-combat-performance.html

Try to make your comments technically oriented please!!

Good Question but you see there are lots of other factor which make M2k a darling of IAF.
1> Many of tejas system and sub system like Radar capability,spin stall test ,EW test still not done.
2> Tejas is a short leg aircraft while M2k is not.
3>Weapon capability like BVR,GPS glided bomb,canon firing ,rocket firing etc etc none of them not yet done .
So how could any airforce going to be happy even after 20years of development it's still in LSP status.

The IAFs double standards on Tejas is glaring to say the least. One of the primary IAF's criticism of Tejas was that it is heavy and its thrust to weight is low.

The thrust to weight ratio of Mirage-2000, the fighter which they adore, is more or less equal to Tejas, but they still insist on better engines for Tejas? Why this obsession with only Tejas? They are perfectly Happy with Mirage-2000's T/W which is more or less the same as Tejas. Tejas is our first project(Marut designed by German), so there will be hiccups here and there. Every one who is new to Aircraft designing will face this and IAF should be more reasonable. Hell even china which is more experienced than us which designed/copied and built the Thunder, the JF-17 has even lower thrust to weight than tejas. J-10 has only a little advantage of Thrust to weight compared to Tejas. It's not huge.

Why can't the IAF be more reasonable and understanding? Are they spoiled with too much foreign maal?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...as-mirage-2000s-close-combat-performance.html

Try to make your comments technically oriented please!!

Good Question but you see there are lots of other factor which make M2k a darling of IAF.
1> Many of tejas system and sub system like Radar capability,spin stall test ,EW test still not done.
2> Tejas is a short leg aircraft while M2k is not.
3>Weapon capability like BVR,GPS glided bomb,canon firing ,rocket firing etc etc none of them not yet done .
So how could any airforce going to be happy even after 20years of development it's still in LSP status.

 

[Joe Shearer]

lets keep it ontopic...

I think IAF has already enough variety in their stable.. They will like to switch to a new platform only when it is better than the existing platforms by some substantial margins. This is because for IAF the REAL cost will include new training modules, overhaul of their strategies based on fighter strength points etc.. notwithstanding the continuous innovation they will need the ADA to come up with to prevent the platform from ageing over the years...

All this factors play a decisive role in todays world where wars are short and high intensity.

It is for precisely the reason that today's wars are short and high intensity that the IAF leadership should support the Tejas and induct it in very large numbers, 500 to 600 numbers at least. That will give the IAF an opportunity to build large numbers of ground support, interception, and air parity linked very closely to divisional operations. It should be able to react to the requirements of the Army at the battalion level, to begin with, and be able to coordinate perfectly with brigade level and division level operations, driven by the brigade and divisional plans and by fresh developments during operations. What we need is the ability to offer quick, directly accessible air support in fast moving armoured or mechanised infantry offensives, or spoiling attacks against enemy resources lining up against our existing lines of defence.

The Tejas should be seen as an opportunity for the IAF to get significantly closer to the Army than has been possible ever before, largely due to the lack of adequate numbers of aircraft. This is the chance to get there, therefore. But quite apart from its effectiveness against enemy concentrations on the western front and more on the Tibetan-Ladakh frontier, the Tejas gives the IAF an opportunity to support the Navy rather better than it has so far. But that is still far away. First things first.

 

[Tshering22]

It is for precisely the reason that today's wars are short and high intensity that the IAF leadership should support the Tejas and induct it in very large numbers, 500 to 600 numbers at least. That will give the IAF an opportunity to build large numbers of ground support, interception, and air parity linked very closely to divisional operations. It should be able to react to the requirements of the Army at the battalion level, to begin with, and be able to coordinate perfectly with brigade level and division level operations, driven by the brigade and divisional plans and by fresh developments during operations. What we need is the ability to offer quick, directly accessible air support in fast moving armoured or mechanised infantry offensives, or spoiling attacks against enemy resources lining up against our existing lines of defence.

The Tejas should be seen as an opportunity for the IAF to get significantly closer to the Army than has been possible ever before, largely due to the lack of adequate numbers of aircraft. This is the chance to get there, therefore. But quite apart from its effectiveness against enemy concentrations on the western front and more on the Tibetan-Ladakh frontier, the Tejas gives the IAF an opportunity to support the Navy rather better than it has so far. But that is still far away. First things first.

Agree with you mate. But the IAF and IA have an open hatred for indigenous products for some obvious reasons.

Everytime they're asked they say it doesn't meet technical requirements while they happily agree to buy foreign weapons of same or inferior quality.

The best example is when DRDO challenged the Army and how it was left blubbering in front of the entire country and grudgingly accepted the tank.

It is imperative that government seals all future foreign orders till the IAF and IA start accepting those domestic products that are good in quality and are at par with foreign products or better.

 

[Safriz]

^^Dont they accept good quality products from DRDO?
They have no problem accepting DRDO's balanced beam AESA for the AEW&C while rejecting SAAB Ericsson's similar product..
If they say something is inferior quality,it must be.

 

[arp2041]

Agree with you mate. But the IAF and IA have an open hatred for indigenous products for some obvious reasons.

Everytime they're asked they say it doesn't meet technical requirements while they happily agree to buy foreign weapons of same or inferior quality.

The best example is when DRDO challenged the Army and how it was left blubbering in front of the entire country and grudgingly accepted the tank.

It is imperative that government seals all future foreign orders till the IAF and IA start accepting those domestic products that are good in quality and are at par with foreign products or better.

The best model for that is within our country itself - The IN, i simply can't stop praising the way IN has nearly completely switched from a foreign navy to indigenous one. Now of some 50 ships under construction, 45 of them are in Indian shipyards & the only thing that is forcing the IN to go for foreign ships is either the inability of Indian shipyards to take more orders or buying ships & subs like Akula or AC which are not possible to be made in Indian shipyards b'coz of the high tech. involved. Not just that the ships of IN are getting more indigenous but of capability either on par or maybe in some cases even better than the western tech., like for eg. the shivalik class frigates are the heaviest stealth frigates in the world. This is because of IN's initiative of trusting Indian shipyards for big ships & making there objective - to make Indian & buy Indian for nearly 3 decades now, so much the Indian shipyards have evolved that we are making our own AC (though with some delays ofcourse). It's important that IA & IAF should make this a benchmark for there own evolution into completely indigenous force, yes it will take time but than we will not be at the mercy of a foreign nation in any emergency situation.

 

[SQ8]

It is for precisely the reason that today's wars are short and high intensity that the IAF leadership should support the Tejas and induct it in very large numbers, 500 to 600 numbers at least. .

That may translate to a 1000 combat aircraft IAF, but that does not seem to be in the minds of Planners.
Be it disdain for indigenous products or general lack of product performance the Tejas seems to be slated for no more than a 150.
The Navy may be the one that actually adopts the Tejas as its own and the N-LCA has a much better potential than the AF version.
Basically, the IAF seems to have decided on a force comprising more of heavy hitters and do-it-all medium weights rather than a three tier force.
The attitude of the IAF vis-a'-vis the Tejas seems to be that of the step-child, grudgingly carrying it along rather than with full enthusiasm. Perhaps that is how the Staff requirement of the IAF see's it.
The IN on the other hand, may have a gem in the Tejas as it gets a reasonable strike asset which is small enough to be stored in enough numbers on its carriers.

On the topic:

The Mirage-2000 also carried a lot more than the Tejas does, so even with comparable T/W .. the Mirage-2000 is able to carry more to the target.
The Tejas's T/W may be preventing it from carrying the load that the IAF wants it to carry all the way to the target and still be able to defend itself.

 

[arp2041]

That may translate to a 1000 combat aircraft IAF, but that does not seem to be in the minds of Planners.
Be it disdain for indigenous products or general lack of product performance the Tejas seems to be slated for no more than a 150.
The Navy may be the one that actually adopts the Tejas as its own and the N-LCA has a much better potential than the AF version.
Basically, the IAF seems to have decided on a force comprising more of heavy hitters and do-it-all medium weights rather than a three tier force.
The attitude of the IAF vis-a'-vis the Tejas seems to be that of the step-child, grudgingly carrying it along rather than with full enthusiasm. Perhaps that is how the Staff requirement of the IAF see's it.
The IN on the other hand, may have a gem in the Tejas as it gets a reasonable strike asset which is small enough to be stored in enough numbers on its carriers.

can't agree with u more sir, as if u have said that i just wanted to say. As in my earlier post i said that IN trust indigenous tech. more than any of the three force, thus i will not be surprised if the ratio of tejas to that of total ac in IN will be more than the IAF, IAF for some unknown reason is not giving the importance that tejas should have got, instead IN took the N-LCA project with both hands & is now banking on it for it's future air assets, if the NLCA project doesn't get any delays or is not hit by any tech. problem than i have no doubt that IN will at least go for 60-80 of these birds, this will be a good no. considering that IN plans to have nearly 200 fighter jets in a decade or so for it's air arm. IAF on the other hand will hardly go for 150 jets (only if mk2 turns out as expected) & may go for more rafales, sukhois or fgfa instead. I think IAF will now bank on AMCA & will see tejas just as a experimental project.

 

[foxbat]

All it needs is one right ACM for a 2 year term...

 

[SQ8]

can't agree with u more sir, as if u have said that i just wanted to say. As in my earlier post i said that IN trust indigenous tech. more than any of the three force, thus i will not be surprised if the ratio of tejas to that of total ac in IN will be more than the IAF, IAF for some unknown reason is not giving the importance that tejas should have got, instead IN took the N-LCA project with both hands & is now banking on it for it's future air assets, if the NLCA project doesn't get any delays or is not hit by any tech. problem than i have no doubt that IN will at least go for 60-80 of these birds, this will be a good no. considering that IN plans to have nearly 200 fighter jets in a decade or so for it's air arm. IAF on the other hand will hardly go for 150 jets (only if mk2 turns out as expected) & may go for more rafales, sukhois or fgfa instead. I think IAF will now bank on AMCA & will see tejas just as a experimental project.

Which is fine, but then the AMCA should be all hands on board and not the half-hearted effort Tejas was in terms of the AF's interest.
for eg..
The USAF wanted the F-22 so bad that they made sure it came out pretty well.
That same want went into the MKI.. and must go into the AMCA for it to be successful.