Why was the Awami League not allowed to form government in 1971?

[gromell]

Gromell
I appreciate your input and accept it as a good debate. You have your believe and I have mine. I gave my explanation with logic and followed a practical approach nonetheless it won't make any different because we look and experience the world in different light. So let's leave it to that and move on..........

YES lets move on

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The answer to your first question would be an unambiguous YES. Of course, he was a Bengali, ethnically speaking. Unfortunately, though, what we are discussing, rather questioning, is not his ethnicity but if he truly represented his ethnic group. Yes, we are discussing the second question. Tangential to you, relevant to us...

...The issue, therefore, is not if he was a Bengali, but lies with the question of if he had represented Bengali cause, being in the position that he was. Amidst the cacophony of Bengali nationalism, his failure to do so translated as his failure to represent his ethnicity.

Here are the relevant parts of the thread starting post:

Who was Iskander Mirza then? A Bengali president of Pakistan. In fact Pakistan's first ever president was a Bengali. Who was the Baloch president, or the Pakistani Punjabi one?

lol. thnx for reminding me of iskhander mirza. he was from the nawab family of bengal born in murshidabad, which now falls in India. the nawab family was not ethnically bengali.

The question was quite clearly regarding Mirza's ethnicity, not whether he 'fought for the Bengali cause or was perceived as Bengali for other reasons'.

That question appears to have been answered - Mirza was Bengali.

The issue of how he was perceived in East Pakistan and why is interesting as well, but I'll let the rest of you continue that discourse.

 

[DarkStar]

Good to see that we have established the fact of Iskander Mirza being a Bengali!

It's nice to have an outcome of a discussion.

 

[DarkStar]

Please stop all the Text Shouting, with Large Fonts. It's not polite and an eyesore.

 

[gromell]

"if relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German, and the Germans will call me a Jew."-A. Einstein

 

[gromell]

Good to see that we have established the fact of Iskander Mirza being a Bengali!

It's nice to have an outcome of a discussion.

Iskhander Mirza was the 1st president of Pakistan, who was born in Bengal and was to Bengalis what Alu Alkhanov and Kadyrovs are to Chechen Muslim sufferers.

 

[DarkStar]

"if relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German, and the Germans will call me a Jew."-A. Einstein

You're talking about perceptions, and viewing something through alternate prisms.

Ethnicity is not relative.

If someone want's to argue with you how and why Iskander MIrza is perceived by Bangladeshis, then they can do so.

I've already taken what i wanted from this discussion.

 

[karnivore]

That question appears to have been answered - Mirza was Bengali.

I've already taken what i wanted from this discussion.

The context to this question is important.

The original thread was an attempt to justify the rejection of Mujib’s electoral win. One thing led to another and finally, it was accused, that Pakistan never really allowed Bengalis to represent Pakistan. To which, a tiny list of Bengalis, who, at one time or the other were appointed in posts, pretty higher up in the hierarchy, was presented. One such name, was Iskander Mirza. It was counter argued that, since Bengalis always considered him to be an outcast, because of his bent towards his Arabic past, his appointment as the president, never really meant that a true Bengali was appointed. It was in this context that he was identified as being “not ethnically Bengali”. It actually symbolized the public perception of him. In my very first post I had warned, rather hinted, that reading it in terms of genetics would be a mistake.

While roadrunner was trying to insinuate that Iskander Mirza served as good example of how Bengalis were not ignored, gromell, countered, and in my mind, correctly, that Mirza’s conscious effort to distance himself from his ethnic identity and cling on to a couple of hundred years old familial history, made him anything but a Bengali.

Thus, although the question seems to be in black and white, the answer, in it’s right context, is in grey.

Anyway, if you think that you have got your answer, nothing can be better that.

 

[roadrunner]

Iskhander Mirza was the 1st president of Pakistan, who was born in Bengal and was to Bengalis what Alu Alkhanov and Kadyrovs are to Chechen Muslim sufferers.

Then there's no argument. You've admitted Iskander Mirza was a Bengali, which is correct, as Kadyrove is a Chechen. Pakistan therefore had several Bengali Presidents and Prime Ministers.

Now your argument is that he wasn't liked by Bengalis. Yet no survey exists for this. You may have demonized him after the war, but where was your evidence he was universally despised in East Pakistan just after Pakistan's independence? Where is your evidence also that he considered himself to be an Arab and not a Bengali? That's another piece of evidence I'd like to see.

One could say Ayub Khan was a traitor for not making Hindko the national language of Pakistan. Or say that President number 3 was despised, therefore one can't include him as a Punjabi president of Pakistan! Silly logic. The fact is Bengalis and so on were selected for the Presidency.

 

[gromell]

The context to this question is important.

The original thread was an attempt to justify the rejection of Mujib’s electoral win. One thing led to another and finally, it was accused, that Pakistan never really allowed Bengalis to represent Pakistan. To which, a tiny list of Bengalis, who, at one time or the other were appointed in posts, pretty higher up in the hierarchy, was presented. One such name, was Iskander Mirza. It was counter argued that, since Bengalis always considered him to be an outcast, because of his bent towards his Arabic past, his appointment as the president, never really meant that a true Bengali was appointed. It was in this context that he was identified as being “not ethnically Bengali”. It actually symbolized the public perception of him. In my very first post I had warned, rather hinted, that reading it in terms of genetics would be a mistake.

While roadrunner was trying to insinuate that Iskander Mirza served as good example of how Bengalis were not ignored, gromell, countered, and in my mind, correctly, that Mirza’s conscious effort to distance himself from his ethnic identity and cling on to a couple of hundred years old familial history, made him anything but a Bengali.

Thus, although the question seems to be in black and white, the answer, in it’s right context, is in grey.

Anyway, if you think that you have got your answer, nothing can be better that.

Thank you Karnivor for understanding my posts. I actually wrote one post talking about the context of this thread, as it was cut from its original argument. That was about the electoral fairness towards Bengalis in pre-71 Pakistan. All I was trying to say Pakistanis should not claim that they gave Bengalis their due political rights just by looking at Iskhander Mirza or Nurul Amin. These people did not associate with us and they were puppets of the West Pakistanis. The real Bengali politicians like Suhrawardy was not allowed to be in power for long; we all know what happened to Sheikh Mujib! Bengalis actually had to fight against these PMs more than West Pakistanis! For example, in 1952 when the language movement reached its height, the PM was who?!Khwaja Najimuddin i guess...?
However the post where I tried to highlight the context of this argument was deleted by a super moderator on the context of irrelevance!

 

[M_Saint]

All I was trying to say Pakistanis should not claim that they gave Bengalis their due political rights just by looking at Iskhander Mirza or Nurul Amin. These people did not associate with us and they were puppets of the West Pakistanis. The real Bengali politicians like Suhrawardy was not allowed to be in power for long; we all know what happened to Sheikh Mujib!

Gromell Bhai,

I got tired of encountering Horse Syte like above but it seemed like there wasn't any lack of supply from your end. Suhrawardy became a real Bengali to you but you didn't see Bengalis like Abul Mansoor Ahmed or Fazlul Kader Chowdhury getting ministerial and speaker posts. Furthermore, he wasn't allowed to enter PAK due to his imbecility of fueling riots in Kolkata that ignited spiral of Muslim cleansings throughout Bihar, WB and Assam. And his disciple Mujib went a step ahead by start killing in parliament. BTW, Suhrawardy was an Arabian descendent too and probably less of Bengali by gene than Iskander Mirza.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Gromell,

Please try and stay on topic.

There was absolutely no point in the video you posted in your last response related to this discussion.

 

[M_Saint]

When more than 50% of the population used to speak Bengali as the first language and most of those Bengali population had no knowledge of literary urdu, then how come you are claiming Urdu would suit most Pakistanis? Are you sure it is I, not you who is fuming with emotion?

Gormell Bhai,

There is a saying, who controls the flow of information, he/it controls the demography. Now the figure 50% has been picked up because it has suited apologists but they conveniently have hided the premise that if part of Bihar, Assam, Hyderabad, Kashmir and Junagharh have been a part of PAK as it has been originally envisaged then our numbers wouldn't have been 50%. And even it had been closer by population of PAK then it wouldn't have been near by the area of that figure. Furthermore, selection of URDU had meanings of spearheading Muslim's spiritual and unified lives. Because Urdu is written by Arabic letter and does Farsi too. So, entire Middle Eastern, Persian and Indian Muslim's paper documents would show in same letters that would make easier for them to unify and re-possess the lost glory. I guess that hasn't crossed your mind yet.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

All I was trying to say Pakistanis should not claim that they gave Bengalis their due political rights just by looking at Iskhander Mirza or Nurul Amin. These people did not associate with us and they were puppets of the West Pakistanis.

And did the political leadership at the time that appointed these people know the above were 'puppets' and 'did not associate with Bengalis'? Was that put on their resumes?

Remember that West Pakistan itself was composed of various ethnicities, and therefore the ideal leadership at the time, and in the present, regardless of what you think, was one that looked beyond ethnicity and focused on the idea of Pakistan, and not on Punjabi rights, Sindhi rights or Bengali rights.

The President and Prime Minister of India are not expected to advocate for the rights of a particular ethnicity in India - they are expected to advocate and represent a United India. Kalam was not supposed to be a torch bearer for the Muslim community and fight for Muslim rights - he was to rightfully represent all of India, Hindu, christian, Muslim, Sikh, as a Muslim president.

Your claim is nothing but a revisionist justification of your perceived ills - the motive being to somehow paint Pakistan as an inherently evil entity from the beginning, so that it further validates the independence of Bangladesh.

Its a sad reflection of your insecurities that you have to resort to such lengths, since you will rarely find a Pakistani that wishes Bangladesh ill will for its secession. In fact, the bonds of brotherhood within Islam and desires for greater cooperation as independent nations is overwhelming. Yet there remains this desire amongst some Bangladeshis (and of course the Indians) to continually vilify and demonize Pakistan even by clutching at straws.

Why the Indians do this is apparent, they would rather deflect attention from the role they played in the years leading up to 1971 in destabilizing East Pakistan, and how their actions played into atrocities committed by both sides, and a spiraling out of control of the situation leading to Indian military intervention (the Indian goal all along).

Why some Bangladeshis insist on vilifying Pakistan even over non-issues, and by that I do not mean to imply there aren't genuine issues to be critical of in terms of the East Pak-West Pak relationship, is a more complex question, and I can only assume it is to somehow seek further validation, when none is required, of the decision to secede.

This line of criticism directed at Pakistan is intellectually dishonest and unwarranted.

 

[HAIDER]

Agno i was unaware of these history question and used to blame Pakistani establishment bad policy. But now I see its not just one sided story. Both are equally or more or less responsible for this division.