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Why was south Asia so difficult to unify?

TurnThyCheek

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China, Rome, Persia, Ottomans and even Mongols all had huge empires with much bigger land mass under their control and successfully administered them, communications never held them back, so why were South asian states struggling to unify and rule India?

It took the Mauryans and Mughals multiple generations to get their territories together and they still failed to conquer the entire subcontinent.
 
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South Asia was never unified in history, many empires tried and for brief periods major chunks of the sub continent was unified but not fully.
It is Gods grace that after 1947 India got a huge continuous landmass to call a country.

The English could have very well divided the subcontinent into many many countries.

We have to thank Sardar Vallabhhai Patel for uniting the smaller states to form the union of India.
 
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South Asia was never unified in history, many empires tried and for brief periods major chunks of the sub continent was unified but not fully.
It is Gods grace that after 1947 India got a huge continuous landmass to call a country.

The English could have very well divided the subcontinent into many many countries.

We have to thank Sardar Vallabhhai Patel for uniting the smaller states to form the union of India.
Why though? What challenges did south Asian states face that made unifying the region difficult? Persian/Roman/Ottoman empires had fairly diverse populations but still succeeded
 
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conquer the entire subcontinent.
It is no differant from any other region of the world. What you see in South Asia is the normative rather then a exception. Same could be said about -

  1. Europe
  2. Asia
  3. Africa
  4. Americas

In fact more then South Asia which has 10 religions, 100 languages, 200 ethnic groups, 400 cultures and with 1.8 billion people nearly 1/4 of the global population what I want to know is why are 400 million Arabs, speaking the same language, same religion, similiar culture similar geography not united into one country in Middle East instead of dozens of warring states. In fact even on the Arabian peninsula with less than 50 million people we have -

  1. Saudia Arabia
  2. Kuwait
  3. UAE
  4. Oman
  5. Bahrain
  6. Qatar
  7. Yemen
 
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Why though? What challenges did south Asian states face that made unifying the region difficult?

Asalamu Alaikum

We are all simply too different to one another. Indo Aryan, Iranian and Dravidian people are all pretty different from each other culturally, and even within these groups you have vastly different ethnic groups.

It's like asking why was Europe rarely unified? Or Africa? Or Latin America? It's an oversimplification to lump everyone in the same basket. A Punjabi is not the same as a Tamil, a Pashtun is not the same as a Gujarati, a Sindhi is not the same as a Mewari, etc.

People unite based on common interests, not general perception of each group being indifferent to each other.
 
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It's like asking why was Europe rarely unified? Or Africa? Or Latin America?
Just because we have geographic regions like -

Europe
Asia
Africa
Americas
Scandanavia
Iberia
Balkans
Arabian peninsula
Indochina
Maghreb
etc

does not follow that they will unite. In fact I would expect Europe, Arabs, East Asians, Africans to unite far before South Asia as they are more homogenous whereas there is as I said before more diversity in South Asia. I mean you might as well ask why have human beings on earth not united as we all belong to the same species ~ homo sapiens ....
 
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Two words: despotism and geography.

The Persians ruled through satrapies. The Romans had governors and adhered to local custom whenever that didn't interfere with their military and taxation policies. The Brits in South Asia were more interested in trade than anything else.

However, the pre-European rulers of India leaned towards absolute power. The most powerful Muslim rulers imposed taxes meant to impoverish the non-Muslims, breeding resentment: even in areas that didn't retain non-Muslim rulers, all that a local Muslim commander had to do to win Hindu loyalty was promise lower taxes and revolts were born, instantly. Geography did the rest: mountain ranges and inaccessible swamps hindered mounted troop movements over long distances, and the longer the despot was gone from his capital to quell a revolt far away the greater the chance of revolt in his own capital.
 
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In terms of ethnic/cultural diversity the subcontinent is the size of western and central europe ,and even greater in population.How many empires united europe except roman and charlemagne?

To control subcontinent you need to have sufficient economic base.You need to control gangetic plains to be master of northern india,this is not very difficult for a strong emergent power(especially strong in elephants or cavalry) as terrain obstacles are absent.But to be a pan-indian power controlling gangetic plains is not enough.You have to fulfill 2 more conditions -
You have secure resources of the 2nd great fertile belt -the indus river valley,and push west enough to create a buffer against invasions through the kandahar-kabul natural mountain gateway.
Once western frontiers are secure you have to secure the flanks and the richest ports in India -bengal-odisha controlling trade with S-E asia and china and Gujarat-sindh controlling trade with middle east and europe.

If an empire succeeds in accomplishing the above then they can afford to cross the natural vindhya terrain barrier and enter south india.Only 2 empires achieved total conquest - British and the mauryans.4 others came close - Mughals,Guptas,Marathas and Delhi sultanate at its peak under khiljis.

The british expansion followed a different pathway because they were a maritime external power,but the other 4 followed the above model.

Mauryans under chandragupta secured power in Magadha which was the dominant power of the gangetic valley first.Then expanded west and took over the indus valley area.Defeated the greeks and pushed the frontier upto the hindukush in afghanistan,thus securing step 2.Then he took gujarat and then entered south.Bindusara continued expansion in south.Ashoka finished off the last remaining anomaly - kalinga(odisha area).One reason mauryans succeeded was because during that time regional languages and identities had not developed so much.So you see maurya edicts in pali and prakrit all over india.

Mughals fought for Indus and gangetic valleys simultaneously.They took control the indus valley quickly,but had to fight the rajputs and afghans continously for victory in the gangetic plains.After akbar finally achieved this,he next turned to Gujarat and Rajputana had to be controlled because it formed the link between gujarat ports and delhi core area.Then orissa.Akbar controlled both kandahar and kabul -the 2 western frontier entry points.Jahangir lost kandahar,and shahjahan tried desperately to retake it but failed.But the iranians (safavids) were themselves threatened by uzbeks and ottomans on 2 sides so never attacked until much later(nadir).This allowed shahjahan to enter south india.Aurangzeb continued the policy but didn't suceed,overextended,made enemies everywhere .

Look at the guptas -same model.Chandragupta I begins the empire by becoming the main power in eastern gangetic plains.Samudragupta conquers all of it and expands till the indus.He also takes orissa and penetrates deccan on the eastern side.Chandragupta II conquers the sakas,gujarat-sindh and th indus valley.He secures the western frontier to an extent with vassal buffer states in the indus region.And this holds until the hepthalite white huns tear down the system.In the south Guptas followed slightly different policy.In the eastern part of deccan they ruled via vassals.In the western part of deccan and south india they followed matrimonial alliance policy. The vakataka kingdom was the main power and allied with guptas and its queen was generation after generation a gupta princess.

Delhi sultanate under alauddin same model.Already controlled gangetic plains and indus belt.Secured western frontier by defeating ilkhanate mongols.Then took gujarat.Then penetrated deccan.Ultimately didn't work long term and never reached the depths of south india like the mughals attempted to.

Marathas failed because -1.They had no central imperial administration,but a loose confederate structure.2.Their sardars were mainly raiders by nature focusing on loot to be acquired by force,rather than streamlined bureaucracy to extract revenue efficiently over long periods,this also alienated friendly forces in north india.3.They lost 10 precious years due to panipat debacle in 1761.It took them 10 years to recover and return to north india and delhi.But by this time English position had become impregnable,they had taken over bengal,orissa,bihar,eastern U.P (awadh was vassal)and were now the dominant power of gangetic plains.They were commercially and technologically far superior.Even then as long as confederacy fought united they had a chnace (stalemate in 1st anglo-maratha war).Once confederacy unity was broken,they fell easily.

Apart from marathas,the 3 south Indian empires that might have had a chance at pan-indian domination were satavahans, cholas and rashtrakutas.Its difficult for a south indian power to as easily snowball because land revenue potential is not as great as in gangetic and indus belts combined.2ndly local dynasties are very resilient and we see perseverance of pandyas, cheras, cholas, chalukyas,pallavas for hundreds of years -even if temporarily defeated cadet branches persist and revive later.
Satavahans were almost a pan-indian empire,but most of their energies which could have have been expended at expansion into north india were spent in the 200 year rivalry against the sakas.Still satavahans are an important empire as they were the greatest indian power when after the fall of the sungas,north india had a political power vaccuum and no other power could resist the sakas until the rise of the guptas.
Rashtrakutas were the strongest power of their day,stronger than their northern rivals -the gurjara pratiharas and pala .But they always had to fight too many enemies,due to continous attempts by local dynasties to undermine their supremacy in the south -they were never able to establish a permanent presence in the north,even though whenever they entered north in force they usually won most of the battles.But inevitably they had to leave or weaken their presence and oppurtunistic palas and gurajars waiting on 2 flanks pounced and retook kannnauj.

Cholas made a strategic choice.Unlike the rastrakutas who actually made a bid for pan-indian domination.Cholas instead focused their military might on a maritime empire - in lanka,-SE asia.In the north they only penetrated bengal and orissa,that too to complete their complete mastery of the -SE asian trade route with china by taking all the eastern ports.Bay of bengal was a chola lake.
 
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Two words: despotism and geography.
Lack of political unity of geographic regions is the normative rather then exception as I said before. Perhaps you can explain why these geographies are/were lacking in political unity?

Europe
Balkans
Maghreb
Middle East
East Asia
Latin America
Africa
etc
 
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It is no differant from any other region of the world. What you see in South Asia is the normative rather then a exception. Same could be said about -

  1. Europe
  2. Asia
  3. Africa
  4. Americas

In fact more then South Asia which has 10 religions, 100 languages, 200 ethnic groups, 400 cultures and with 1.8 billion people nearly 1/4 of the global population what I want to know is why are 400 million Arabs, speaking the same language, same religion, similiar culture similar geography not united into one country in Middle East instead of dozens of warring states. In fact even on the Arabian peninsula with less than 50 million people we have -

  1. Saudia Arabia
  2. Kuwait
  3. UAE
  4. Oman
  5. Bahrain
  6. Qatar
  7. Yemen

Asalamu Alaikum

We are all simply too different to one another. Indo Aryan, Iranian and Dravidian people are all pretty different from each other culturally, and even within these groups you have vastly different ethnic groups.

It's like asking why was Europe rarely unified? Or Africa? Or Latin America? It's an oversimplification to lump everyone in the same basket. A Punjabi is not the same as a Tamil, a Pashtun is not the same as a Gujarati, a Sindhi is not the same as a Mewari, etc.

People unite based on common interests, not general perception of each group being indifferent to each other.

Just because we have geographic regions like -

Europe
Asia
Africa
Americas
Scandanavia
Iberia
Balkans
Arabian peninsula
Indochina
Maghreb
etc

does not follow that they will unite. In fact I would expect Europe, Arabs, East Asians, Africans to unite far before South Asia as they are more homogenous whereas there is as I said before more diversity in South Asia. I mean you might as well ask why have human beings on earth not united as we all belong to the same species ~ homo sapiens ....

But the territories you guys mention are entire continents, South Asia is relatively compact in its size, its true its diverse with different ethnic/racial/linguistic/religious groups but other empires overcame this, Rome united the Med which was also diverse and very big, various Persian states unified Mesopotamia,Persia,Armenia, and the Turks of central Asia, and finally the Afghans into one solid state, the Achaemenid empire managed to go even further, with Egypt Syria Turkey as well, Seljuks managed similar feats, their territories were diverse and bigger but just not as populated
 
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Lack of political unity of geographic regions is the normative rather then exception as I said before. Perhaps you can explain why these geographies are/were lacking in political unity?
The OP question was specific and I responded. I'm not going to take the time to expand from it.
 
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But the territories you guys mention are entire continents
Balkans is a tiny sliver comapred to South Asia with slightly greater population then mega South Asian city like Mumbai. Continent is a man made contruct. It is not a definitive thing. And what about -

Maghreb - one language. Similar people.
Balkans - Similar culture.
Middle East - mostly Arabs
Arabian peninsula - all Arab. all Muslim but divided into half dozen states.

And for the record South Asia is almost as large as Europe, with 3 times the population, 5 times more lamguages and twice more religions. Indeed Europe should be more united then it is given that it is not as diverse as South Asia and with only 600 million people as opposed to 1,800 million people.

If South Asia is place over Europe it extends from Denmark to Libya in North Africa, from France to Turkey and Georgia. Note not only is it as large as Europe but has nearly three times the population. Therefore South Asia is equivalent to Europe which in some ways could be described as being a sub-continent as it is part of the larger Asian [Eurasian] landmass.


hk4c2JG.png
 
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I think there were no big empires in tropical or near tropical areas in the entire human history.. heat and moist often make people sleepy,retreat and idealistic, colder weather tend to make people more martial,pragmatic and conquering...well just see how big Russia is.:cheesy:
 
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In terms of ethnic/cultural diversity the subcontinent is the size of western and central europe ,and even greater in population.How many empires united europe except roman and charlemagne?

To control subcontinent you need to have sufficient economic base.You need to control gangetic plains to be master of northern india,this is not very difficult for a strong emergent power(especially strong in elephants or cavalry) as terrain obstacles are absent.But to be a pan-indian power controlling gangetic plains is not enough.You have to fulfill 2 more conditions -
You have secure resources of the 2nd great fertile belt -the indus river valley,and push west enough to create a buffer against invasions through the kandahar-kabul natural mountain gateway.
Once western frontiers are secure you have to secure the flanks and the richest ports in India -bengal-odisha controlling trade with S-E asia and china and Gujarat-sindh controlling trade with middle east and europe.

If an empire succeeds in accomplishing the above then they can afford to cross the natural vindhya terrain barrier and enter south india.Only 2 empires achieved total conquest - British and the mauryans.4 others came close - Mughals,Guptas,Marathas and Delhi sultanate at its peak under khiljis.

The british expansion followed a different pathway because they were a maritime external power,but the other 4 followed the above model.

Mauryans under chandragupta secured power in Magadha which was the dominant power of the gangetic valley first.Then expanded west and took over the indus valley area.Defeated the greeks and pushed the frontier upto the hindukush in afghanistan,thus securing step 2.Then he took gujarat and then entered south.Bindusara continued expansion in south.Ashoka finished off the last remaining anomaly - kalinga(odisha area).One reason mauryans succeeded was because during that time regional languages and identities had not developed so much.So you see maurya edicts in pali and prakrit all over india.

Mughals fought for Indus and gangetic valleys simultaneously.They took control the indus valley quickly,but had to fight the rajputs and afghans continously for victory in the gangetic plains.After akbar finally achieved this,he next turned to Gujarat and Rajputana had to be controlled because it formed the link between gujarat ports and delhi core area.Then orissa.Akbar controlled both kandahar and kabul -the 2 western frontier entry points.Jahangir lost kandahar,and shahjahan tried desperately to retake it but failed.But the iranians (safavids) were themselves threatened by uzbeks and ottomans on 2 sides so never attacked until much later(nadir).This allowed shahjahan to enter south india.Aurangzeb continued the policy but didn't suceed,overextended,made enemies everywhere .

Look at the guptas -same model.Chandragupta I begins the empire by becoming the main power in eastern gangetic plains.Samudragupta conquers all of it and expands till the indus.He also takes orissa and penetrates deccan on the eastern side.Chandragupta II conquers the sakas,gujarat-sindh and th indus valley.He secures the western frontier to an extent with vassal buffer states in the indus region.And this holds until the hepthalite white huns tear down the system.In the south Guptas followed slightly different policy.In the eastern part of deccan they ruled via vassals.In the western part of deccan and south india they followed matrimonial alliance policy. The vakataka kingdom was the main power and allied with guptas and its queen was generation after generation a gupta princess.

Delhi sultanate under alauddin same model.Already controlled gangetic plains and indus belt.Secured western frontier by defeating ilkhanate mongols.Then took gujarat.Then penetrated deccan.Ultimately didn't work long term and never reached the depths of south india like the mughals attempted to.

Marathas failed because -1.They had no central imperial administration,but a loose confederate structure.2.Their sardars were mainly raiders by nature focusing on loot to be acquired by force,rather than streamlined bureaucracy to extract revenue efficiently over long periods,this also alienated friendly forces in north india.3.They lost 10 precious years due to panipat debacle in 1761.It took them 10 years to recover and return to north india and delhi.But by this time English position had become impregnable,they had taken over bengal,orissa,bihar,eastern U.P (awadh was vassal)and were now the dominant power of gangetic plains.They were commercially and technologically far superior.Even then as long as confederacy fought united they had a chnace (stalemate in 1st anglo-maratha war).Once confederacy unity was broken,they fell easily.

Apart from marathas,the 3 south Indian empires that might have had a chance at pan-indian domination were satavahans, cholas and rashtrakutas.Its difficult for a south indian power to as easily snowball because land revenue potential is not as great as in gangetic and indus belts combined.2ndly local dynasties are very resilient and we see perseverance of pandyas, cheras, cholas, chalukyas,pallavas for hundreds of years -even if temporarily defeated cadet branches persist and revive later.
Satavahans were almost a pan-indian empire,but most of their energies which could have have been expended at expansion into north india were spent in the 200 year rivalry against the sakas.Still satavahans are an important empire as they were the greatest indian power when after the fall of the sungas,north india had a political power vaccuum and no other power could resist the sakas until the rise of the guptas.
Rashtrakutas were the strongest power of their day,stronger than their northern rivals -the gurjara pratiharas and pala .But they always had to fight too many enemies,due to continous attempts by local dynasties to undermine their supremacy in the south -they were never able to establish a permanent presence in the north,even though whenever they entered north in force they usually won most of the battles.But inevitably they had to leave or weaken their presence and oppurtunistic palas and gurajars waiting on 2 flanks pounced and retook kannnauj.

Cholas made a strategic choice.Unlike the rastrakutas who actually made a bid for pan-indian domination.Cholas instead focused their military might on a maritime empire - in lanka,-SE asia.In the north they only penetrated bengal and orissa,that too to complete their complete mastery of the -SE asian trade route with china by taking all the eastern ports.Bay of bengal was a chola lake.

Indus valley isn't fertile, looks like your information is very wrong to start off. Its semi-desert area, only thing going for it is rivers and ground water, rain fed areas. This is why only British with their common sense could irrigate plains of western punjab by setting of huge numbers of colonies. Before that people dependent on cattle and nomadic lifestyle. As agriculture was poor and rain dependent.

Similar to Rajasthan but with difference being IVC get much more rain and have rivers. But only British toke advantage of that.
 
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Balkans is a tiny sliver comapred to South Asia with slightly greater population then mega South Asian city like Mumbai. Continent is a man made contruct. It is not a definitive thing. And what about -

Maghreb - one language. Similar people.
Balkans - Similar culture.
Middle East - mostly Arabs
Arabian peninsula - all Arab. all Muslim but divided into half dozen states.

And for the record South Asia is almost as large as Europe, with 3 times the population, 5 times more lamguages and twice more religions. Indeed Europe should be more united then it is given that it is not as diverse as South Asia and with only 600 million people as opposed to 1,800 million people.

If South Asia is place over Europe it extends from Denmark to Libya in North Africa, from France to Turkey and Georgia. Note not only is it as large as Europe but has nearly three times the population. Therefore South Asia is equivalent to Europe which in some ways could be described as being a sub-continent as it is part of the larger Asian [Eurasian] landmass.


hk4c2JG.png

Well the Maghreb was historically made up of lots of tribes, it wasn't really a sedentary civilization, the tribes often made states in the region unstable, South Asia didn't have that problem
The Balkans was unified for most of its history, under the Macedonians to Romans to Byzantines to Ottomans
The middle east is true it was disunited a lot but also had many major empires , unifying it was difficult because of the sheer size, the Achaemenids, Macedonians, Parthians/Sassanians/Romans held large parts later on Rashidun/Umayyad/Abassid caliphates held lots of ground too then the Ottomans and safavids split the region
Arabia never had a history of statehood, only during the brief period of the early caliphates it was unified as a state, before and after it was pretty much independent tribes roaming the desert

But you are right though South Asia is massive I was totally wrong on that account, still China proper is huge with a huge population, they managed to keep their country together and they have multiple dialects that are non intelligible to each other --------
languages-spoken-in-china-cover.jpg
 
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