Why Türkiye should rethink its relations with India

[MayaBazar]

Well, things are not perfect from Indian people like you described neither... Just visited some Youtube videos and Indians were attacking anything about Turks like savages... Now you might label them as extremists too, but from what I see, Indian media ruined any possibility of a Turkish - Indian friendship with their extreme broadcasts... First they created hate, and after the Support ship deal they created the feeling of Humiliation. In first ''Modi was challenging the Evil Turks'' and after that it was ''Modi will pay billions of dollars to this Evil Turks''
You see where it goes... So, I am curious about where it goes, but not hopeful.

Most of Indians including many journalists are not educated in history, culture and geopolitics.

 

[Nilgiri]

Well, things are not perfect from Indian people like you described neither... Just visited some Youtube videos and Indians were attacking anything about Turks like savages... Now you might label them as extremists too, but from what I see, Indian media ruined any possibility of a Turkish - Indian friendship with their extreme broadcasts... First they created hate, and after the Support ship deal they created the feeling of Humiliation. In first ''Modi was challenging the Evil Turks'' and after that it was ''Modi will pay billions of dollars to this Evil Turks''
You see where it goes... So, I am curious about where it goes, but not hopeful.

We are 1.4 billion ppl nearly man. What you gonna think gonna happen on YT, twitter, fb etc lol.

Even media...shall I go into what European and American media have said about Turkey and even Turks...or is it all different in their case and "friendship is ruined" doesn't apply?

As I said,

our imperfections exist

Idea is to align to best principle possible from get go rather than a bad principle....and then use the bad principle to deny/cover up imperfections altogether till they fissure entirely (why you think Bangladesh and Pakistan are separate countries now?)

If at any point it becomes overbearing, simply Turkish people can reduce what they buy from India and replace with their more bestie friends like Pakistan and Bangladesh...or at least so the trade ratios by population level are same.

I leave that to Turkish people to decide.

 

[Turan09]

Most of Indians including many journalists are not educated in history, culture and geopolitics.

And this supports the possibility of this inevitable end I mentioned. They feel damaged and humiliated, because of their lack of education, do you see anything positive from that?

We are 1.4 billion ppl nearly man. What you gonna think gonna happen on YT, twitter, fb etc lol.

Even media...shall I go into what European and American media have said about Turkey and even Turks...or is it all different in their case and "friendship is ruined" doesn't apply?

I leave that to Turkish people to decide.

Nope, our friendship with them if that ever existed is ruined too... We are tolerating them for now... But you see tolerance is tends to end at some point.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Gandhi always fought for the unity of Hindus and Muslims to fight against the British rule. No other British Indian leader fought so hard for the Hindu-Muslim unity.

What kind of nonsensical claim is this? Every mughal and Muslim-led city state opponent of Britain asked Hindus and Muslims to join together and expel the British. If it wasn't for backstabbing marathas then Tipu Sultan may have beaten the English back. You need to stop worshipping Hindus alone as the only ones who wanted to keep the clans united. Compared to Tipu who gave his life on the front line resisting the colonialists, I'm not even sure if Gandhi comes remotely close.

 

[MayaBazar]

And this supports the possibility of this inevitable end I mentioned. They feel damaged and humiliated, because of their lack of education, do you see anything positive from that?

No they do not matter. The news TV channels only care about their TRPs. So they keep showing click bait breaking news to attract the audience. The audience too do not care. They will take whatever is fed to them without any imagination of their own.

The people who really matter are the policy makers.

As I said earlier I am perfectly fine with Türkiye and India indulging in rhetorical statements for domestic consumption as long as the substance of the relationship is getting stronger.

Managing the opinion of the common people is the least of the worries.

 

[Nilgiri]

Nope, our friendship with them if that ever existed is ruined too... We are tolerating them for now... But you see tolerance is tends to end at some point.

OK fair enough. Everything is basically toleration + pragmatic reality past national border. Maybe a few exceptions exist like between you and Azerbaijan, and say India and Nepal....where there is a huge cultural/ethnic/historical inertia on top and underlying the pragmatic needs and realities.

Only one's own people look out and are responsible for actual friendship of consequence....its within your country for everyone as best you can cultivate and grow it.

Outside everything is mostly transaction based...you can find basis for fundamental disagreement with nearly everyone....sometimes quite bitterly and sorely. The most extreme of these shape the vast majority of easy "discourse" you find online, because simply the middle-bulk of "silent" people dont really know or care much on such issues.

But I simply define even this transaction nature as something of a basic friendship (given you need some element of trust and cooperation), it need not be everyone's definition though.

 

[MayaBazar]

What kind of nonsensical claim is this? Every mughal and Muslim-led city state opponent of Britain asked Hindus and Muslims to join together and expel the British. If it wasn't for backstabbing marathas then Tipu Sultan may have beaten the English back. You need to stop worshipping Hindus alone as the only ones who wanted to keep the clans united. Compared to Tipu who gave his life on the front line resisting the colonialists, I'm not even sure if Gandhi comes remotely close.

Hindu and Muslim kings of the subcontinent were fighting individually for their own interests.

British took the whole subcontinent with ~3000 soldiers. It shows how divided we were.

Both Hindu and Muslim kings fought against and sided with the British East India company from time to time. Muslim Nawabs and Hindus princely states were full aligned and were working for the British. That is the harsh reality.

My post was about uniting British Indians after the complete take over by the British from the British East India company in 1857.

 

[Turan09]

No they do not matter. The news TV channels only care about their TRPs. So they keep showing click bait breaking news to attract the audience. The audience too do not care. They will take whatever is fed to them without any imagination of their own.

The people who really matter are the policy makers.

As I said earlier I am perfectly fine with Türkiye and India indulging in rhetorical statements for domestic consumption as long as the substance of the relationship is getting stronger.

Managing the opinion of the common people is the least of the worries.

If you live in a dictatorship it doesn't matter but if you are ''worlds biggest democracy'' like India claimed, people's views matters a lot. This views also means votes after all... One of the Indians said Modi was quite a reformist and charismatic leader and with the support ship deal anyone except him would lose a lot because of this deal, I agree, but how much this friendship would go under this circumstances? This is my point.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

No they do not matter. The news TV channels only care about their TRPs. So they keep showing click bait breaking news to attract the audience. The audience too do not care. They will take whatever is fed to them without any imagination of their own.

The people who really matter are the policy makers.

As I said earlier I am perfectly fine with Türkiye and India indulging in rhetorical statements for domestic consumption as long as the substance of the relationship is getting stronger.

Managing the opinion of the common people is the least of the worries.

Yes it's very easy to dismiss the rhetoric from a minority of social media and conventional media platforms for your good self but in reality, this is the message that shapes subconscious opinion. For decades, such poison led to the Indian national psyche becoming irreversibly hateful of even innocent non-aligned Pakistanis. We saw in recent years the systematic vilification of ANY Pakistani by the Indian state just because of their Pakistani nationality. Do I need to roll off a list of sports stars, artists, cultural personalities and simple business men who have been harmed by Indian state policy that is based upon toxic media misrepresentations? The cricketers, the traders, the overseas Pakistanis arranging concerts, the artists, Indian personalities banned from appearing with Pakistanis in a completely apolitical forum...It's akin to Iran refusing its judokas fighting against israel's because of their petty political issues (which incidentally has now been lifted).

It is the height of chanakiya to stand here with a straight face and proclaim all is well with the Indian national psyche despite the barrage of venomous media against any nation or individual that simply dares to disagree with an Indian state policy. The eternal hatred of ALL Pakistanis stemmed from media misrepresentations and subsequently haemorrhaged into a hatred of Indian Muslims and mughal heritage within India. The diatribes against Arabs and Turks in recent times are a similar phenomenon and as Pakistanis, we know the inevitable end result of such machinations when your "minority click bait media" is left unchecked. Turks and Arabs are welcome to wait and see for themselves where your nonchalance leads to. I suspect they're smarter than that though.

 

[MayaBazar]

If you live in a dictatorship it doesn't matter but if you are ''worlds biggest democracy'' like India claimed, people's views matters a lot. This views also means votes after all... One of the Indians said Modi was quite a reformist and charismatic leader and with the support ship deal anyone except him would lose a lot because of this deal, I agree, but how much this friendship would go under this circumstances? This is my point.

Pakistan is the only country that can influence voters in India. No other country matters in Indian politics.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

My post was about uniting British Indians after the complete take over by the British from the British East India company in 1857.

Well it was too late then wasn't it?

 

[MayaBazar]

Well it was too late then wasn't it?

Not really. Our forefathers kept fighting initially for representation and later for complete independence. I am sorry if you think our forefathers fought for nothing.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Not really. Our forefather kept fighting initially for representation and later for complete independence. I am sorry if you think our forefather fought for nothing.

He fought a good fight. But he got killed by another Indian hindu...an Indian hindu who is openly declared a national hero by BJP leaders precisely for this act of killing this supposed forefather of India.

So please explain how his fight - which clearly didn't win over half of Indians to Gandhi's cause (and that doesn't include any ML "traitors") - is somehow the best and most unifying effort that you could muster.

To me, the guy charging head first into British cannon fire in a desperate last stand against British occupiers and maratha traitors is the real hero. Tipu had loyal Hindu officers by his side until the very end. That's unity.

 

[MayaBazar]

He fought a good fight. But he got killed by another Indian hindu...an Indian hindu who is openly declared a national hero by BJP leaders precisely for this act of killing this supposed forefather of India.

So please explain how his fight - which clearly didn't win over half of Indians to Gandhi's cause (and that doesn't include any ML "traitors") - is somehow the best and most unifying effort that you could muster.

To me, the guy charging head first into British cannon fire in a desperate last stand against British occupiers and maratha traitors is the real hero. Tipu had loyal Hindu officers by his side until the very end. That's unity.

Well I can also give example of how all Muslim kings colluded to bring down Vijayanagara Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Talikota

The point was all those kings were fighting each other or for themselves.

It would have been great had all of those kings joined hands against the European imperialist forces. But they did not. That is the fact and we are yet to learn from that history. Today, We are still fighting India vs Pakistan or Hindu vs Muslim instead of uniting for the greater good of the people of the subcontinent.

 

[Rusty]

What I say might trigger many of my countrymen. But I don't give credence to Iqbal's views on Ataturk. He was a blessing for Turkey. It's the best, most sorted out Muslim nation in the world thanks to his endeavors. Iqbal was more of a philosopher and not so much a nation maker. Baba Jinnah was our Ataturk, he took Iqbal's dream and made it a reality. Pakistan owes itself to him.

Back when I was young and deeply conservative, I hatted Ataturk.
Now, I can see how right he was.
I think he went a little too far in some parts, but every Muslim country needs an Ataturk or we will never ever progress and will always be the victims of outsiders.