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Why they hate Us(The US)?

EjazR

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Why They Hate Us (I): Lessons from Civil War Reconstruction | Stephen M. Walt

One of the many barriers to developing a saner U.S. foreign policy is our collective failure to appreciate why military occupations generate so much hatred, resentment, and resistance, and why we should therefore go to enormous lengths to avoid getting mired in them. Costly occupations are an activity you hope your adversaries undertake, especially in areas of little intrinsic strategic value. We blundered into Somalia in the early 1990s without realizing that we weren't welcome; we invaded Iraq thinking we would be greeted as liberators, and we still don't fully understand why many Afghans resent our presence and why some are driven to take up arms against us.

The American experience is hardly unique: Britain's occupation of Iraq after World War I triggered fierce opposition, and British forces in Mandate Palestine eventually faced armed resistance from both Arab and Zionist groups. French rule in Algeria, Syria, Lebanon, and Indochina spawned several violent resistance movements, and Russia has fought Chechen insurgents in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries. The Shiite population of southern Lebanon initially welcomed Israel's invasion in 1982, but the IDF behaved badly and stayed too long, which led directly to the formation of Hezbollah. Israelis were also surprised by the first intifida in 1987, having mistakenly assumed that their occupation of the West Bank was benevolent and that the Palestinians there would be content to be governed by the IDF forever.

Military occupation generates resistance because it is humiliating, disruptive, arbitrary and sometimes terrifying to its objects, even when the occupying power is acting from more-or-less benevolent motives. If you've ever been caught in a speed trap by a rude or abusive policeman (I have), or selected out for special attention crossing a border (ditto), you have a mild sense of what this is like. You are at the mercy of the person in charge, who is inevitably well-armed and can do pretty much whatever he (or she) wants. Any sign of protest will only make things go badly -- and in some situations will get you arrested, beaten, or worse -- so you choke down your anger and just put up with it. Now imagine that this is occurring after you've waited for hours at some internal checkpoint, that none of the occupiers speak your language, and that it is like this every single day. And occasionally the occupying power kills innocent people by mistake, engages in other forms of indiscriminate force, and does so with scant regard for local customs and sensibilities. Maintain this situation long enough, and some members of the local population will start looking for ways to strike back. Some of them may even decide to strap on explosive vests or get behind the wheel of a explosives-laden truck, and sacrifice themselves.

It is sometimes said that Americans don't understand this phenomenon because the United States has never been conquered and occupied. But this simply isn't true. After the Civil War, a "foreign army" occupied the former Confederacy and imposed a new political order that most white southerners found abhorrent. The first Reconstruction Act of 1867 put most southern states under formal military control, supervised the writing of new state constitutions, and sought to enfranchise and empower former slaves. It also attempted to rebuild the south economically, but the reconstruction effort was undermined by corruption and poor administration. Sound familiar? However laudable the aims may have been, the results were precisely what one would expect. Northern occupation eventually triggered violent resistance by the Ku Klux Klan, White League, Red Shirts, and other insurgent groups, which helped thwart Reconstruction and paved the way for the Jim Crow system that lasted until the second half of the 20th century.

Nor should we forget how long a profound sense of anger and resentment lasted. I was recently discussing this issue with a distinguished American journalist who grew up in the South, and he told me that one hundred years after the end of the Civil War, he was still being taught songs that expressed a lingering hatred of what the Yankees had done. Here are a coupl of stanzas from one of them -- "I'm a Good Old Rebel" -- written by a former Confederate officer and first published in 1914:

I hates the Yankee nation, and everything they do,
I hates the Declaration of Independence too.
I hates the glorious Union, 'tis dripping with our blood
I hates their striped banner, I fought it all I could.

Three hundred thousand Yankees lie stiff in Southern dust;
We got three hundred thousand, before they conquered us
They died of Southern fever, and Southern steel and shot,
I wish they was three million, instead of what we got.

Or to take a more recent (1974), less poetic example, from Lynyrd Skynyrd:

Well I heard Mr. Young sing about her,
Well I heard old Neil put her down.
Well, I hope Neil Young will remember,
A Southern man don't need him around anyhow.

This is what defeat in war and prolonged occupation does to a society: it generates hatred and resentment that can last a century or more. Hatred of the "party of Lincoln" kept the South solidly Democratic for decades, and its political character remains distinctly different even today, nearly 150 years after the civil war ended. (Among other things, Barack Obama has favorable job approval ratings in every region of the country except the South). And don't forget that unlike our current presence in Iraq and Afghanistan, the occupying forces of the North spoke the same language and had been part of the same country prior to the war; in some cases, there were even strong family connections on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. Yet defeat in war and military occupation were an enduring source of division for many years thereafter.

The bottom line is that you don't need to be a sociologist, political scientist, or a student of colonialism or foreign cultures to understand why military occupation is such a poisonous activity and why it usually fails. If you're an American, you just need to read a bit about Reconstruction and reflect on how its effects -- along with the effects of slavery itself -- have persisted across generations. If that's not enough, visit a society that is currently experiencing occupation, and take the time to go through a checkpoint or two. Then you might understand why the local population doesn't view the occupying forces as benevolent and isn't as grateful as occupiers often think they ought to be.
 
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Why they hate us (II): How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years? | Stephen M. Walt

Tom Friedman had an especially fatuous column in Sunday's New York Times, which is saying something given his well-established capacity for smug self-assurance. According to Friedman, the big challenge we face in the Arab and Islamic world is "the Narrative" -- his patronizing term for Muslim views about America's supposedly negative role in the region. If Muslims weren't so irrational, he thinks, they would recognize that "U.S. foreign policy has been largely dedicated to rescuing Muslims or trying to help free them from tyranny." He concedes that we made a few mistakes here and there (such as at Abu Ghraib), but the real problem is all those anti-American fairy tales that Muslims tell each other to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

I heard a different take on this subject at a recent conference on U.S. relations with the Islamic world. In addition to hearing a diverse set of views from different Islamic countries, one of the other participants (a prominent English journalist) put it quite simply. "If the United States wants to improve its image in the Islamic world," he said, "it should stop killing Muslims."

Now I don't think the issue is quite that simple, but the comment got me thinking: How many Muslims has the United States killed in the past thirty years, and how many Americans have been killed by Muslims? Coming up with a precise answer to this question is probably impossible, but it is also not necessary, because the rough numbers are so clearly lopsided.

Here's my back-of-the-envelope analysis, based on estimates deliberately chosen to favor the United States. Specifically, I have taken the low estimates of Muslim fatalities, along with much more reliable figures for U.S. deaths.

To repeat: I have deliberately selected "low-end" estimates for Muslim fatalities, so these figures present the "best case" for the United States. Even so, the United States has killed nearly 30 Muslims for every American lost. The real ratio is probably much higher, and a reasonable upper bound for Muslim fatalities (based mostly on higher estimates of "excess deaths" in Iraq due to the sanctions regime and the post-2003 occupation) is well over one million, equivalent to over 100 Muslim fatalities for every American lost.

Figures like these should be used with caution, of course, and several obvious caveats apply. To begin with, the United States is not solely responsible for some of those fatalities, most notably in the case of the "excess deaths" attributable to the U.N. sanctions regime against Iraq. Saddam Hussein clearly deserves much of the blame for these "excess deaths," insofar as he could have complied with Security Council resolutions and gotten the sanctions lifted or used the "oil for food" problem properly. Nonetheless, the fact remains that the United States (and the other SC members) knew that keeping the sanctions in place would cause tens of thousands of innocent people to die and we went ahead anyway.

Similarly, the United States is not solely to blame for the sectarian violence that engulfed Iraq after the 2003 invasion. U.S. forces killed many Iraqis, to be sure, but plenty of Shiites, Kurds, Sunnis, and foreign infiltrators were pulling triggers and planting bombs too. Yet it is still the case that the United States invaded a country that had not attacked us, dismantled its regime, and took hardly any precautions to prevent the (predictable) outbreak of violence. Having uncapped the volcano, we are hardly blameless, and that goes for pundits like Friedman who enthusiastically endorsed the original invasion.

Third, the fact that people died as a result of certain U.S. actions does not by itself mean that those policy decisions were wrong. I'm a realist, and I accept the unfortunate fact that international politics is a rough business and sometimes innocent people die as a result of actions that may in fact be justifiable. For example, I don't think it was wrong to expel Iraq from Kuwait in 1991 or to topple the Taliban in 2001. Nor do I think it was wrong to try to catch Bin Laden -- even though people died in the attempt -- and I would support similar efforts to capture him today even if it placed more people at risk. In other words, a full assessment of U.S. policy would have to weigh these regrettable costs against the alleged benefits to the United States itself or the international community as a whole.

Yet if you really want to know "why they hate us," the numbers presented above cannot be ignored. Even if we view these figures with skepticism and discount the numbers a lot, the fact remains that the United States has killed a very large number of Arab or Muslim individuals over the past three decades. Even though we had just cause and the right intentions in some cases (as in the first Gulf War), our actions were indefensible (maybe even criminal) in others.

It is also striking to observe that virtually all of the Muslim deaths were the direct or indirect consequence of official U.S. government policy. By contrast, most of the Americans killed by Muslims were the victims of non-state terrorist groups such as al Qaeda or the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. Americans should also bear in mind that the figures reported above omit the Arabs and Muslims killed by Israel in Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank. Given our generous and unconditional support for Israel's policy towards the Arab world in general and the Palestinians in particular, Muslims rightly hold us partly responsible for those victims too.

Contrary to what Friedman thinks, our real problem isn't a fictitious Muslim "narrative" about America's role in the region; it is mostly the actual things we have been doing in recent years. To say that in no way justifies anti-American terrorism or absolves other societies of responsibility for their own mistakes or misdeeds. But the self-righteousness on display in Friedman's op-ed isn't just simplistic; it is actively harmful. Why? Because whitewashing our own misconduct makes it harder for Americans to figure out why their country is so unpopular and makes us less likely to consider different (and more effective) approaches.

Some degree of anti-Americanism may reflect ideology, distorted history, or a foreign government's attempt to shift blame onto others (a practice that all governments indulge in), but a lot of it is the inevitable result of policies that the American people have supported in the past. When you kill tens of thousands of people in other countries -- and sometimes for no good reason -- you shouldn't be surprised when people in those countries are enraged by this behavior and interested in revenge. After all, how did we react after September 11?
 
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a walking corspe is steadily walking towards its coffin and his mouth keeps asking why......
 
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Why they hate us (II): How many Muslims has the U.S. killed in the past 30 years? | Stephen M. Walt

Tom Friedman had an especially fatuous column in Sunday's New York Times, which is saying something given his well-established capacity for smug self-assurance. According to Friedman, the big challenge we face in the Arab and Islamic world is "the Narrative" -- his patronizing term for Muslim views about America's supposedly negative role in the region. If Muslims weren't so irrational, he thinks, they would recognize that "U.S. foreign policy has been largely dedicated to rescuing Muslims or trying to help free them from tyranny." He concedes that we made a few mistakes here and there (such as at Abu Ghraib), but the real problem is all those anti-American fairy tales that Muslims tell each other to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

<snipped>

Saddam Hussein clearly deserves much of the blame for these "excess deaths," insofar as he could have complied with Security Council resolutions and gotten the sanctions lifted or used the "oil for food" problem properly. Nonetheless, the fact remains that the United States (and the other SC members) knew that keeping the sanctions in place would cause tens of thousands of innocent people to die and we went ahead anyway.
Errr...We installed the Oil-For-Food program to prevent those deaths.

UN Office of the Iraq Program - Oil for Food: About the Program
Resolution 778 of 2 October 1992, authorizes transferring back money produced by any Iraqi oil transaction on or after 6 Aug 90 and which had been deposited into the Escrow account, to the states or accounts concerned for so long as the oil exports take place or until sanctions are lifted.
That escrow account was managed by the UN, not the US. During the sanction years, the US became Iraq's largest singular LEGAL oil importer. We did not need to buy Iraqi oil. The ILLEGAL oil importers were...the other UN Security Council members...!!! And who knows how much money exchanged hands. The OFF scandal tainted the UNS SecGen Kofi Annan himself.
 
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@gambit - maybe you have a point about the Oil for Food program. But no matter how hard you try you can't justify the invasion of Iraq - it was stupid - it was pointless - you have created a mess that won't get cleaned up. Iraq had no Al-qaeda and insurgent groups before - you have thousands of fighters and terrorists calling Iraq home now.
Afghanistan was justified - the world supported the US. But Iraq was plain wrong. Iraq is in much worse shape. US security is not much better. The next 9/11 type attack will originate from Iraq - Mark my words!
 
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@gambit - maybe you have a point about the Oil for Food program. But no matter how hard you try you can't justify the invasion of Iraq - it was stupid - it was pointless - you have created a mess that won't get cleaned up. Iraq had no Al-qaeda and insurgent groups before - you have thousands of fighters and terrorists calling Iraq home now.
Afghanistan was justified - the world supported the US. But Iraq was plain wrong. Iraq is in much worse shape. US security is not much better. The next 9/11 type attack will originate from Iraq - Mark my words!
No it will not.

The Iraqis have had a taste of dictatorship. Now they have a taste of a civil war, fomented by foreigners, and I am not talking about US.

fomented - definition of fomented by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
1. To promote the growth of; incite.
It still is al-Qaeda that is the troublemaker and the Iraqis will clean up their own country. If the Iraqis need another dictatorship in order to keep the country united, independent and functional, it will be one that even though may be diplomatically cool to US, it will not be hostile. The Iraqis know we defeated them twice, we can do it again. The other despots in the region knows that the US will not tolerate another attack on US soil, not even less than the scale of 9/11. They are not suicidal.
 
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the US will end up being involved in any mess you find. it is the only superpower in the world and hence has a big footprint.

would you blame the south ossettia war on the US? US was supporting the ukrainian govt there, it was this support which led to the bloodshed. had US not supported the ukrainian govt the russians would have had no reason to meddle and protect their "sphere of influence" and hence no bloodshed.

u see the flaw in this kind of reasoning?

if u really want to see the number of deaths caused , u need to look at more direct actions. US providing arms/money/support to one side does not make the US responsible for the bloodshed caused by this side.

lets look at gulf war 1 as an example. the US then bombed several places in iraq. killed many muslims in the campaign. did the US really have a choice there? and should we blame the US for the deaths caused by the sanctions after the war? and the deaths caused by the sanctions?

gulf war 2 was a major disaster . it served no purpose and the deaths it caused are rightfully blamed on the US. and the US should pay for them too.

but we cant blame the secretarian violence and the deaths caused by it on the US.
deaths were being caused before the US intervened. the majority sect saddam belonged to was killing the kurds and the other sects. the US occupation brought the violence in the open and allowed the subdued sects to hit back.

before the US intervened it was muslims killing muslims and there was no one to blame. once the US got involved, it became a ready target for all the blame.

as to the point that while all the attacks on the US are conducted by individuals, the US attacks the countries as a country and this is wrong.
it does not stand up to scrutiny. this logic implies that the US should only strike at ones directly responsible for the attacks. but is any country capable of it? the US acting autonomously can not enter some other country to strike at those "non state actors". it has to depend on the govt of the country to root out those "non state actors". what option has the US got when the govt in question is uncooperative.
the state government has to be held responsible for control over its "non state actors" atleast to ensure that they dont act against some other nation.

in conclusion i would like to assert that while the US has several bad policies as far as the muslim world is concerned including is support for Israel, it is held responsible for more wrong doings than it deserves. this is due to a sense of xenophobia that the muslims have developed over a very long course of history starting with the crusades.
 
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a living person goes by and then walk along the walking corpse and keep telling it you can do something to change the path, you will do it to escape your fate , and together they unnoticingly come closer to the coffin.....developing news....just a story not involving nations though, MODS, JUST DONT DELETE THIS STORY AND LET IT DEVELOPS INTERESTINGLY....
 
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Once upon a time there was a money maker, a very, very big one. He had so many fantasies about a far away nation that his head exploded from the strain of trying to fit the facts of the real world to his own insane projections. Eventually he died. He was buried in a coffin.
 
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The truth is in the great powers forever,No condemn,You need to do is to make yourself stronger&#65292;Then it(US) must consider the cost before piss you!
 
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