Why the US military's M1 Abrams tank is still the king of the battlefield.

[Penguin]

Germans were pretty well trained. And the "failure" of polish cavalry charge in ww2 was a myth, according to wiki, most charges were successful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_at_Krojanty
The Polish cavalry charge stopped the German pursuit for the day, and the units of Czersk Operational Group were able to withdraw southwards unopposed. Also, it took the Germans several hours to reorganise and continue the advance. On September 2, 1939, the 18th Pomeranian Uhlans Regiment was decorated by Gen. Grzmot-Skotnicki, the commander of the Operational Group, with his own Virtuti Militari medal for valour shown in this combat.

The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield, together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, as well as German tanks that had arrived at the place after the battle. One of the Italian correspondents, Indro Montanelli, sent home an article, in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with sabres and lances. Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was used by German propaganda during the war. German propaganda magazine Die Wehrmacht reported on 13 September that the Poles had gravely underestimated German weapons, as Polish propaganda had suggested that German armored vehicles were only covered with sheet metal, leading to a grotesque attack. After the end of World War II, it was still used by Soviet propaganda as an example of stupidity of pre-war Polish commanders, who allegedly did not prepare their country for the war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers. As late as the 1990s, this myth was still taught in history classes in American high schools and colleges.

George Parada states:[8]

Contrary to German propaganda, Polish cavalry brigades never charged tanks with their sabres or lances as they were equipped with anti-tank weapons such as 37 mm Bofors wz.36 (exported to UK as Ordnance Q.F. 37 mm Mk I) antitank guns, that could penetrate 26 mm of armour at 600 m at 30 degrees. The cavalry brigades were in the process of being reorganized into motorized brigades.

The Poles also had the anti-tank rifle model 1935 (karabin przeciwpancerny wz. 35). Its calibre was 7.92 mm and it could penetrate 15 mm of armour at 300 m at 30 degrees. In 1939, the Germans were mainly equipped with the small Panzer I and Panzer II models, which were vulnerable to such weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry#Cavalry_charges_and_propaganda

Apart from countless battles and skirmishes in which the Polish cavalry units fought dismounted, there were 16 confirmed[4] cavalry charges during the 1939 war. Contrary to common belief, most of them were successful.

The first and perhaps best known happened on September 1, 1939, during the Battle of Krojanty. During this action, elements of the 18th Pomeranian Uhlan Regiment met a large group of German infantry resting in the woods near the village of Krojanty. Colonel Mastalerz decided to take the enemy by surprise and immediately ordered a cavalry charge, a tactic the Polish cavalry rarely used as their main weapon. The charge was successful and the German infantry unit was dispersed.

The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the battlefield, the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, alongside German tanks that had arrived at the field of battle only after the engagement. One of the Italian correspondents sent home an article,[5] in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with their sabres and lances. Other possible source of the myth is a quote from Heinz Guderian's memoirs, in which he asserted that the Pomeranian Brigade had charged on German tanks with swords and lances.[6] Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was disseminated by German propaganda during the war with a staged Polish cavalry charge shown in their 1941 reel called "Geschwader Lützow".[1] After the end of World War II the same fraud was again being disseminated by Soviet propaganda as an example of the stupidity of Polish commanders and authorities, who allegedly did not prepare their country for war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers.[citation needed]

Even such prominent German writers as Günter Grass, later accused of anti-Polonism by Jan Józef Lipski among others, were falling victims to this Nazi deception. Grass wrote the following passage, somewhat metaphorically, in his famous novel The Tin Drum:

O insane cavalry... with what aplomb they will kiss the hand of death, as though death were a lady; but first they gather, with sunset behind them - for color and romance are their reserves - and ahead of them the German tanks, stallions from the studs of Krupps von Bohlen und Halbach, no nobler steeds in all the world. But Pan Kichot, the eccentric knight in love with death, lowers his lance with the red-and-white pennant and calls on his men to kiss the lady's hand. The storks clatter white and red on rooftops, and the sunset spits out pits like cherries, as he cries to his cavalry: "Ye noble Poles on horseback, these are no steel tanks, they are mere windmills or sheep, I summon you to kiss the lady's hand".
On 1 September 2009 Sir Simon Jenkins, writing for the The Guardian newspaper's website, characterised the notion of pitting Polish cavalry against tanks as "the most romantic and idiotic act of suicide of modern war."[7] On 21 September 2009, The Guardian was forced to publish an admission that his article "repeated a myth of the second world war, fostered by Nazi propagandists, when it said that Polish lancers turned their horses to face Hitler's panzers. There is no evidence that this occurred."[7]



"Representative Cavalry Squadron of Polish Army" on military parade in Warsaw commemorating the Feast of the Polish Army 2006


Polish Mounted Police city of Poznań
Other cavalry charges of 1939 were as follows:

1. September 1 - Battle of Mokra - 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment took by surprise the elements of German 4th Panzer Division, which retreated in panic.[5][8] During the charge, lances were used. In fact, the cavalry charge in the traditional sense was neither planned, nor executed. The mounted infantry rode over behind the attacking German armor in behind the tankettes with the tank men throwing smoke grenades to cover the approach. Indeed, the mounted infantry did repel the German support infantry and forced part of the German armored regiment to continue to advance while deprived of the infantry support.
2. September 1 - Battle of Janów - 11th Legions Uhlan Regiment on a reconnaissance mission encountered a similar unit of German cavalry. Lieut. Kossakowski ordered a cavalry charge, but the enemy did not accept battle and after a short clash withdrew[4] towards their positions.
3. September 2 - Battle of Borowa Góra - 1st squadron of the 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment encountered a squadron of German cavalry in the village of Borowa. A charge was ordered, but the Germans withdrew.[4]
4. September 11 - Osuchowo - 1st squadron of the 20th Uhlan Regiment of King Jan III Sobieski charged through[4] the German infantry lines to avoid encirclement, and broke through. There were negligible losses on both sides.
5. September 12 - Kałuszyn - 4th squadron of the 11th Legions Uhlan Regiment charged overnight at the German positions in the town of Kałuszyn. Although the charge was a mistake (the Polish infantry commander issued a wrong order which was understood as a charge order while the cavalry was meant to simply move forward), it was a success. After heavy casualties on both sides, the town was retaken[4] in the early morning.
6. September 13 - Mińsk Mazowiecki - 1st squadron of the 2nd Regiment of Grochow Uhlans charged German infantry positions, but was repelled by German MG and artillery fire.
7. September 13 - Maliszewo - 1st squadron of the 27th Uhlan Regiment was engaged in heavy fighting near the village of Maliszewo. After the Germans were beaten[4] and started to retreat towards the village, the Poles charged and took the village along with a large number of German prisoners.
8. September 15 - Brochów - elements of the 17th Greater Poland Uhlan Regiment charged towards the German positions to frighten[4] the enemy infantry. Shortly before reaching the range of enemy weapons, they dismounted and continued their assault on foot; the attack was successful.
9. September 16 - Dembowskie - a platoon from the 4th squadron of the 17th Uhlan Regiment charged towards a small German outpost located around a foresters' hut. The small number of Germans withdrew.[4]
10. September 19 - Battle of Wólka Węglowa - Most of the 14th Regiment of Jazlowiec Uhlans (without its MGs and AT platoon) was ordered to probe the German lines near the town of Wólka Węglowa. After elements of 9th Regiment of Lesser Poland Uhlans arrived, the group was ordered to charge through the German lines to open the way towards Warsaw and Modlin for the rest of Polish forces who were withdrawing from the Battle of Bzura. The Poles charged through a German artillery barrage and took the German infantry by surprise.[4] Polish losses were high (205 killed and wounded), the German losses remain unknown, but the Polish unit broke through and was the first to reach Warsaw after the Battle of Bzura.
11. September 19 - Łomianki - recce squad of 6th Mounted Artillery Detachment charged through the German lines in the town of Lomianki and paved[4] the way for the rest of the unit to Warsaw.
12. September 21 - Battle of Kamionka Strumiłowa - 3rd squadron of the 1st Mounted Detachment (improvised) charged through German infantry who were preparing to assault the Polish positions. The preparations were paralysed and the Germans withdrew.[4]
13. September 23 - Krasnobród - 1st squadron of the 25th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the town of Krasnobród. After heavy casualties, they reached the hilltop on which the town was located. A unit of German organic cavalry from the German 8th Infantry Division countercharged from the hill, but was repelled and the Poles captured the town and took the HQ[4] of the division, together with its commander and about 100 German soldiers. 40 Polish combatants previously taken prisoner by the Germans were also freed.
14. September 24 - Husynne - reserve squadron of the 14th Regiment of Jazlowiec Uhlans (some 500 sabres), reinforced with an improvised cavalry unit of police and some remnants of divisional organic cavalry, was ordered to break through the Soviet infantry surrounding the Polish positions in the village of Husynne. The charge was led by the mounted

So, the poles won?

 

[SQ8]

So, the poles won?

What are the poles doing in a thread about the Abrams in the first place?

 

[Penguin]

What are the poles doing in a thread about the Abrams in the first place?

An example. Where courage and traning do not matter in the face of a better equipped opponent using a modern , cutting edge doctrine.

 

[Fenrir]

What are the poles doing in a thread about the Abrams in the first place?

Poland is actively playing host to American armor (among that of other nations), so it's not completely unmentionable (even outside of the context of the other member's discussion), but it's not a user of said equipment either:

Though Poland uses T-72 and leopard 2 variants in its own Army:

https://defence.pk/threads/polish-military.135523/

 

[forsigmar]

So, the poles won?

Poles fought better than expected, considering they were abandoned by UK/France, and also attacked by Soviets.

T 90 better than the M1A? in which aspects? can you please elaborate how a t 90 is "much better" than M1A?

Weight:

M1: 60 short tons (54 t)[5]
M1A1: 63 short tons (57 t)[5]
M1A2: 72 short tons (65 t)
46 tonnes (45 long tons; 51 short tons) (T-90)
46.5 tonnes (45.8 long tons; 51.3 short tons) (T-90A)

Cost:
M1
US$6.21 million (M1A2 / FY99)[3] Estimated in 2016 as US$8.92 million (with inflation adjustment)
USD 2.5 million in 1999,[1] USD 2.77 – 4.25 million in 2011 (varies by source)[2] T-90MS: USD 4.5 Million

Mobility:
Both have similar mobility, abrams is slightly faster, but with less fuel efficiency, and mechanical reliability/problems, with a turbine engine vs piston.

Armor:
Depleted Uranium vs active defense/ECM Shtora. Explosive reactive armor, and composite.

 

[DCS]

In my opinion, most of the 3rd generation MBTs are broadly equivalent. However, the M1 series remains my favorite. The M1 program was done on time and on budget, the project was thoroughly de-risked, but still brought along important innovations such as the use of blow-off panels and isolated ammo compartments.

The tank itself has good fundamentals and has been continuously developed and updated from the 80's all the way to today. It has been strongly implied by the designers of the ZTZ-99A that the M1 series was a key benchmark for them.

 

[Hamza913]

Really? Provide some examples from modern history pls. Meanwhile, do you know what happened to polish cavalry when they attacked grrman armor in 1939?

One robin doesn't make a summer, not to mention the Nazi military was very well trained in most aspects. Oh and I can provide examples, in the first Chechen war, the militants managed to defeat the big and might Russian military. Even in the 2nd one, it took Russia quite some time to get peace, and even then they had to change their demands. In Afghanistan, you tell me, is the Taliban on it's way out or NATO ground troops? Who won in Vietnam? The poorly equipped communists (well, most of them were poorly equipped anyways). How about Iraq? Answer: The outnumbered and outgunned militants. Another prime example would be how the Afghans kicked the Soviets out of their land.

I can name some more if you want.

Germans were pretty well trained. And the "failure" of polish cavalry charge in ww2 was a myth, according to wiki, most charges were successful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_at_Krojanty
The Polish cavalry charge stopped the German pursuit for the day, and the units of Czersk Operational Group were able to withdraw southwards unopposed. Also, it took the Germans several hours to reorganise and continue the advance. On September 2, 1939, the 18th Pomeranian Uhlans Regiment was decorated by Gen. Grzmot-Skotnicki, the commander of the Operational Group, with his own Virtuti Militari medal for valour shown in this combat.

The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield, together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, as well as German tanks that had arrived at the place after the battle. One of the Italian correspondents, Indro Montanelli, sent home an article, in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with sabres and lances. Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was used by German propaganda during the war. German propaganda magazine Die Wehrmacht reported on 13 September that the Poles had gravely underestimated German weapons, as Polish propaganda had suggested that German armored vehicles were only covered with sheet metal, leading to a grotesque attack. After the end of World War II, it was still used by Soviet propaganda as an example of stupidity of pre-war Polish commanders, who allegedly did not prepare their country for the war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers. As late as the 1990s, this myth was still taught in history classes in American high schools and colleges.

George Parada states:[8]

Contrary to German propaganda, Polish cavalry brigades never charged tanks with their sabres or lances as they were equipped with anti-tank weapons such as 37 mm Bofors wz.36 (exported to UK as Ordnance Q.F. 37 mm Mk I) antitank guns, that could penetrate 26 mm of armour at 600 m at 30 degrees. The cavalry brigades were in the process of being reorganized into motorized brigades.

The Poles also had the anti-tank rifle model 1935 (karabin przeciwpancerny wz. 35). Its calibre was 7.92 mm and it could penetrate 15 mm of armour at 300 m at 30 degrees. In 1939, the Germans were mainly equipped with the small Panzer I and Panzer II models, which were vulnerable to such weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry#Cavalry_charges_and_propaganda

Apart from countless battles and skirmishes in which the Polish cavalry units fought dismounted, there were 16 confirmed[4] cavalry charges during the 1939 war. Contrary to common belief, most of them were successful.

The first and perhaps best known happened on September 1, 1939, during the Battle of Krojanty. During this action, elements of the 18th Pomeranian Uhlan Regiment met a large group of German infantry resting in the woods near the village of Krojanty. Colonel Mastalerz decided to take the enemy by surprise and immediately ordered a cavalry charge, a tactic the Polish cavalry rarely used as their main weapon. The charge was successful and the German infantry unit was dispersed.

The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the battlefield together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown the battlefield, the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, alongside German tanks that had arrived at the field of battle only after the engagement. One of the Italian correspondents sent home an article,[5] in which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who charged German tanks with their sabres and lances. Other possible source of the myth is a quote from Heinz Guderian's memoirs, in which he asserted that the Pomeranian Brigade had charged on German tanks with swords and lances.[6] Although such a charge did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the myth was disseminated by German propaganda during the war with a staged Polish cavalry charge shown in their 1941 reel called "Geschwader Lützow".[1] After the end of World War II the same fraud was again being disseminated by Soviet propaganda as an example of the stupidity of Polish commanders and authorities, who allegedly did not prepare their country for war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers.[citation needed]

Even such prominent German writers as Günter Grass, later accused of anti-Polonism by Jan Józef Lipski among others, were falling victims to this Nazi deception. Grass wrote the following passage, somewhat metaphorically, in his famous novel The Tin Drum:

O insane cavalry... with what aplomb they will kiss the hand of death, as though death were a lady; but first they gather, with sunset behind them - for color and romance are their reserves - and ahead of them the German tanks, stallions from the studs of Krupps von Bohlen und Halbach, no nobler steeds in all the world. But Pan Kichot, the eccentric knight in love with death, lowers his lance with the red-and-white pennant and calls on his men to kiss the lady's hand. The storks clatter white and red on rooftops, and the sunset spits out pits like cherries, as he cries to his cavalry: "Ye noble Poles on horseback, these are no steel tanks, they are mere windmills or sheep, I summon you to kiss the lady's hand".
On 1 September 2009 Sir Simon Jenkins, writing for the The Guardian newspaper's website, characterised the notion of pitting Polish cavalry against tanks as "the most romantic and idiotic act of suicide of modern war."[7] On 21 September 2009, The Guardian was forced to publish an admission that his article "repeated a myth of the second world war, fostered by Nazi propagandists, when it said that Polish lancers turned their horses to face Hitler's panzers. There is no evidence that this occurred."[7]



"Representative Cavalry Squadron of Polish Army" on military parade in Warsaw commemorating the Feast of the Polish Army 2006


Polish Mounted Police city of Poznań
Other cavalry charges of 1939 were as follows:

1. September 1 - Battle of Mokra - 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment took by surprise the elements of German 4th Panzer Division, which retreated in panic.[5][8] During the charge, lances were used. In fact, the cavalry charge in the traditional sense was neither planned, nor executed. The mounted infantry rode over behind the attacking German armor in behind the tankettes with the tank men throwing smoke grenades to cover the approach. Indeed, the mounted infantry did repel the German support infantry and forced part of the German armored regiment to continue to advance while deprived of the infantry support.
2. September 1 - Battle of Janów - 11th Legions Uhlan Regiment on a reconnaissance mission encountered a similar unit of German cavalry. Lieut. Kossakowski ordered a cavalry charge, but the enemy did not accept battle and after a short clash withdrew[4] towards their positions.
3. September 2 - Battle of Borowa Góra - 1st squadron of the 19th Volhynian Uhlan Regiment encountered a squadron of German cavalry in the village of Borowa. A charge was ordered, but the Germans withdrew.[4]
4. September 11 - Osuchowo - 1st squadron of the 20th Uhlan Regiment of King Jan III Sobieski charged through[4] the German infantry lines to avoid encirclement, and broke through. There were negligible losses on both sides.
5. September 12 - Kałuszyn - 4th squadron of the 11th Legions Uhlan Regiment charged overnight at the German positions in the town of Kałuszyn. Although the charge was a mistake (the Polish infantry commander issued a wrong order which was understood as a charge order while the cavalry was meant to simply move forward), it was a success. After heavy casualties on both sides, the town was retaken[4] in the early morning.
6. September 13 - Mińsk Mazowiecki - 1st squadron of the 2nd Regiment of Grochow Uhlans charged German infantry positions, but was repelled by German MG and artillery fire.
7. September 13 - Maliszewo - 1st squadron of the 27th Uhlan Regiment was engaged in heavy fighting near the village of Maliszewo. After the Germans were beaten[4] and started to retreat towards the village, the Poles charged and took the village along with a large number of German prisoners.
8. September 15 - Brochów - elements of the 17th Greater Poland Uhlan Regiment charged towards the German positions to frighten[4] the enemy infantry. Shortly before reaching the range of enemy weapons, they dismounted and continued their assault on foot; the attack was successful.
9. September 16 - Dembowskie - a platoon from the 4th squadron of the 17th Uhlan Regiment charged towards a small German outpost located around a foresters' hut. The small number of Germans withdrew.[4]
10. September 19 - Battle of Wólka Węglowa - Most of the 14th Regiment of Jazlowiec Uhlans (without its MGs and AT platoon) was ordered to probe the German lines near the town of Wólka Węglowa. After elements of 9th Regiment of Lesser Poland Uhlans arrived, the group was ordered to charge through the German lines to open the way towards Warsaw and Modlin for the rest of Polish forces who were withdrawing from the Battle of Bzura. The Poles charged through a German artillery barrage and took the German infantry by surprise.[4] Polish losses were high (205 killed and wounded), the German losses remain unknown, but the Polish unit broke through and was the first to reach Warsaw after the Battle of Bzura.
11. September 19 - Łomianki - recce squad of 6th Mounted Artillery Detachment charged through the German lines in the town of Lomianki and paved[4] the way for the rest of the unit to Warsaw.
12. September 21 - Battle of Kamionka Strumiłowa - 3rd squadron of the 1st Mounted Detachment (improvised) charged through German infantry who were preparing to assault the Polish positions. The preparations were paralysed and the Germans withdrew.[4]
13. September 23 - Krasnobród - 1st squadron of the 25th Wielkopolska Uhlan Regiment charged towards the town of Krasnobród. After heavy casualties, they reached the hilltop on which the town was located. A unit of German organic cavalry from the German 8th Infantry Division countercharged from the hill, but was repelled and the Poles captured the town and took the HQ[4] of the division, together with its commander and about 100 German soldiers. 40 Polish combatants previously taken prisoner by the Germans were also freed.
14. September 24 - Husynne - reserve squadron of the 14th Regiment of Jazlowiec Uhlans (some 500 sabres), reinforced with an improvised cavalry unit of police and some remnants of divisional organic cavalry, was ordered to break through the Soviet infantry surrounding the Polish positions in the village of Husynne. The charge was led by the mounted police, and the Soviet forces withdrew in panic.[4] However, the attack was soon halted by a strong Soviet tank unit. Casualties were similar on both sides.
15. September 26 - Morańce - 27th Uhlan Regiment twice charged an entrenched German infantry battalion in the village of Morańce. Both charges were repelled with heavy casualties (the Poles lost 20 KIA and about 50 wounded, German losses are unknown). After the second charge the Germans sent out a soldier with a white flag and, after a short discussion with the Polish commander of the Nowogródek Cavalry Brigade, the Germans withdrew.[4]

Thanks for furthering my argument.

So, the poles won?

Who was defeated at the end of WW2, the allies or the axis?

 

[barbarosa]

What a great advertisement for M1 Abram tank, who say M1abram is the king of battle field?

 

[UkroTurk]

Kings were always frightened in front of Turkish Sultan!