Why the TTP is undefeatable

[Goenitz]

@Irfan Baloch

So, you asked me on another thread. I said it will take time and no single step can reverse that.
TTP is defeatable but it will take years of narrative. Turkey/Iran examples for consensus etc that how they defeated extremism is not valid as nationalism is very strong there.

We are a new nation. Even Muslim League had no representation in West Pakistan (but in UP, Bihar, and East Pakistan, first time won in Punjab in 1945). Hence, initially, ML ruled Pakistan through bureaucracy, then Army thought it is easy and we could do that too (through DCs, SPs, and Judges).

Anyway, that is why Pakhtoon and Baloch nationalist moments rose just after 47. Three parties rose from the cradle of civilians. PPP, A/League and PTI. PTI is the first truly pan-Pakistan party. PPP was dominant in Punjab and Sindh. AL was all in all in E.Pak. To summarise, Pakistanis don't get represented in parliament and senate and hence there is totally a disconnect what people want and what Islo does. Be it taxation, land reforms, quota, mineral rights etc. Such as, Gawdar protest are for land ownership, Gilgitians are protetsing for the same reason etc.
Parliamentarians make law for rich like eager to takeaway subsidies on fertlisers, diesel, electricity but not on perks, ministers, funds, foreign trips or for industrialist goods.

Lets focus now on the narrative.

Pakistan was formed bcz Muslims realised that a non-muslim sitting in Dehli doesn't represent them and won't take care of them (1937's Congress ministries proved that). The alienation of people from the capital govt must be removed now, by free and fair election. A person sitting in Gawadar or Fata or Khuzdar or Gilgit or a Lahori must have FAITH/Trust in the parliament.

The second thing is people in the sub-continent don't give a dman about slavery, conformism, democracy etc. They always care about religion. Be it 1857 uprising, Bengal riots, various rights in India (1992, 2002) or here like Afghan Jihad, Sipah Sahabah, TLP, TTP, etc. All nationalistic movements had short lives but not religious movements. Hence, to defeat TTP, we need national, political, rational, economical consensus but more on religious narrative. A soldier doesn't die for money but for patriotism and religion. Our patriotism is not for liberty or freedom (like in the US) but to save the fortress for Islam, Pakistan. TTP may fight for money, but it is saving 'Islam' in its own realm. That is why it seems difficult to beat them.

Overall, it will take years and a collection of all steps (eco, geo, politics). The only thing we mustn't compromise is ideological differences. Give them leverage, punishment, escape route, whatever but never make the public believe that they were/are on the right path or legitimise their any action. It is not actually kinetic but a battle of hearts and minds.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

@Irfan Baloch

So, you asked me on another thread. I said it will take time and no single step can reverse that.
TTP is defeatable but it will take years of narrative. Turkey/Iran examples for consensus etc that how they defeated extremism is not valid as nationalism is very strong there.

We are a new nation. Even Muslim League had no representation in West Pakistan (but in UP, Bihar, and East Pakistan, first time won in Punjab in 1945). Hence, initially, ML ruled Pakistan through bureaucracy, then Army thought it is easy and we could do that too (through DCs, SPs, and Judges).

Anyway, that is why Pakhtoon and Baloch nationalist moments rose just after 47. Three parties rose from the cradle of civilians. PPP, A/League and PTI. PTI is the first truly pan-Pakistan party. PPP was dominant in Punjab and Sindh. AL was all in all in E.Pak. To summarise, Pakistanis don't get represented in parliament and senate and hence there is totally a disconnect what people want and what Islo does. Be it taxation, land reforms, quota, mineral rights etc. Such as, Gawdar protest are for land ownership, Gilgitians are protetsing for the same reason etc.
Parliamentarians make law for rich like eager to takeaway subsidies on fertlisers, diesel, electricity but not on perks, ministers, funds, foreign trips or for industrialist goods.

Lets focus now on the narrative.

Pakistan was formed bcz Muslims realised that a non-muslim sitting in Dehli doesn't represent them and won't take care of them (1937's Congress ministries proved that). The alienation of people from the capital govt must be removed now, by free and fair election. A person sitting in Gawadar or Fata or Khuzdar or Gilgit or a Lahori must have FAITH/Trust in the parliament.

The second thing is people in the sub-continent don't give a dman about slavery, conformism, democracy etc. They always care about religion. Be it 1857 uprising, Bengal riots, various rights in India (1992, 2002) or here like Afghan Jihad, Sipah Sahabah, TLP, TTP, etc. All nationalistic movements had short lives but not religious movements. Hence, to defeat TTP, we need national, political, rational, economical consensus but more on religious narrative. A soldier doesn't die for money but for patriotism and religion. Our patriotism is not for liberty or freedom (like in the US) but to save the fortress for Islam, Pakistan. TTP may fight for money, but it is saving 'Islam' in its own realm. That is why it seems difficult to beat them.

Overall, it will take years and a collection of all steps (eco, geo, politics). The only thing we mustn't compromise is ideological differences. Give them leverage, punishment, escape route, whatever but never make the public believe that they were/are on the right path or legitimise their any action. It is not actually kinetic but a battle of hearts and minds.

thanks for concentrating on the message of that article and not who is it from. that writer invites a lot of criticism which is unjustified and misplaced totally drowning the subject matter.

re topic, TTP is undefeatable because its narrative rhymes with the people who are not directly affect by its brutality.
soon after APS tragedy I came across facebook groups where some people were mocking the dead of that tragedy and justifying the killing of those children with fabricated Hadith. they had the gal not only to make fun of the dead but also justify that through Hadiths(made up fake ), the contents of Hadiths go absolutely against what we have learnt and preach about our faith,.
they claimed that the Prophet Muhammad PBUH (أَسْتَغْفِرُ ٱللّٰهَ‎ ) ordered the execution of all prisoners in battle if they were adults and the way to check adulthood was to check their pubes and so all the prisoners were killed. therefore killing these APS kids was justified because at class 8 and above the kids have pubes. it is recoiling even to write that and recall that makes me sick as much as the sign of those kids lying dead in a pile. A class fellow of mine from college days, I know for years has become radicalized, he is openly pro TTP and lives in UK. he actually mocked me and said he draws pleasure seeing those dead kids of army officers he said that to me over the phone he got my number from a whatsapp group. I have no contact with him and blocked him. reporting him wont help because there authorities have nothing to work on unless there is some material evidence to link him to active support of TTP.. you cant get someone arrested for his thoughts alone. I also recall a recorded radio conversation shared on this forum 10 or more years ago between a TTP guy and an army soldier where he also felt proud attacking school vans and promised TTP will continue that and mocked him with laughter when soldier appealed his conscience and faith about harming children,

in Blue Area there is a national bank branch where an officer grade 1 who is a resident of Islamabad swore on his faith and kids that Gen Musharraf had used white phosphorus, daisy cutters, carpet bombing ( in short all the buzz words of second Iraq war) in the red Mosque operation and his soldiers raped students there. this nonsense got traction and was shared because of hatred for Gen Musharraf from political point of view. Imran Khan's PTI started some marches from Lal Masjid as well and only after the mentoring of Gen Shuja Pasha PTI quietly changed its narrative from outright justification to polite condemnation of terror attacks and then to support of Pakistan military until Gen Bajwa pulled the rug again (damn it).

our clerics are not clear. those who do condemn TTP are rejected by their own peers. Red Mosque management is again in the hands of those trouble makers who openly mock the state , refuse to accept it and praise Daesh and TTP and dare the establishment to face them. I have offered prayer there about 12 years ago. the place is jam packed and the Islamabadians love that firebrand scumbag for a Mullah.

I end my post with a mention of Gen Tariq Khan who questioned the use of rehabilitation program of TTP members with minor crimes. he said that after spending 6 to 8 months or deradicalization and teaching them some crafts to earn a peaceful honest living in the society they are sent back to a society which is predominantly radicalized nullifying all the efforts and resources and those guys end up joining the group once again.

after writing all this doom and gloom and pessimism. my conclusion is. we as a nation have to unlearn everything and adapt the approach of Turks, Saudis and / or Iranians. their faith and devotion is no less to ours. And the Islamic faith doesn't come in the way of keep a unified stance against those who use faith or ethnicity but pick arms against their respective countries our people cant claim to be better Muslims than them (I included Saudis, Turks and Iranians to cover every sectarian cupcake here).

 

[Goenitz]

re topic, TTP is undefeatable because its narrative rhymes with the people who are not directly affect by its brutality.

Everything is possible. Things don't come out of the vacuum, and they don't go back. People now hate TTP too. You have to acknowledge the decrease in their support in public, army, etc, You know very well that many troops were also inclined toward TTP and some even defected.

they claimed that the Prophet Muhammad PBUH (أَسْتَغْفِرُ ٱللّٰهَ‎ ) ordered the execution of all prisoners in battle if they were adults and the way to check adulthood was to check their pubes and so all the prisoners were killed. therefore killing these APS kids was justified because at class 8 and above the kids have pubes.

That incident I know. Actually, it was a betray by those tribes. It was early days of Islam (Khandaq). A sahabi RA was from the same tribe. The Prophet SW appointed him as the judge who gave the punishment according to that very tribe's customs (betrayal means killing all adult males). Anyway, if that tribe betrayal was successful, all Muslims wd have been killed (so did Islam) as Kuffars came with 10k strong army with one purpose, bloodbath !! . So the crime was very severe too.
SA example is very good btw in one regard they control Mosques, like Turkey and definitely Iran. Only, govt back literature comes through the loudspeaker. Anyway, extremists (TTP and far-right anti-Islam) always uses these types of Hadith. Far rights to show Islam is brutal and TTP to show that killing is a first choice, glorified and the only thing important in Islam.

in Blue Area there is a national bank branch where an officer grade 1 who is a resident of Islamabad swore on his faith and kids that Gen Musharraf had used white phosphorus, daisy cutters, carpet bombing

I also think that was way mishandled. That manager thought whatever information he received. When matters are buried, conspiracy fills the void as nobody can stop information flow. Like for 65, 71, Abbottabad, that Hadith, etc. We have to open up, realise our mistakes and state what is right.

You know that Jamia Hafsa students were happy that army came to their rescue as they are more Muslims than the police and people of Iman, Jihad, Taqwa etc they wd save them from the Police who were stopping them from forcing 'Shariah'.
Secretly, police used to tell them that raid the massage centres, films shops etc as they cannot close these but students raiding them would make news and thus closure might occur. Those policemen were guilty too as they could stop the first step saying taking the law into their hands is criminal.

Musharraf was aggressive. Be it crossing LOC in Kargil, Jamia Hafsa, Bugti, etc. A leader mustn't be emotional. He was short-sighted too like taking responsibility of Ditta Khel, or giving NROs or reviving MQM. Generals are easy to be made fools as their power makes them less street-smart. I think that is why PDM easily convinced Bajwa and PMLQ Musharraf and then ditched him.
Lastly, the idea that the best Muslim is the one who stops wrongdoing with his hand is often misinterpreted. That is what jamisa hafsa students were doing. That Hadith is valid for people in power. Like a police should stop an ongoing robbery. A civilian should if he can. But if robbers are more, even the policeman should wait for backup. Stopping with your hands means when you have the authority.

I end my post with a mention of Gen Tariq Khan who questioned the use of rehabilitation program of TTP members with minor crimes. he said that after spending 6 to 8 months or deradicalization and teaching them some crafts to earn a peaceful honest living in the society they are sent back to a society which is predominantly radicalized nullifying all the efforts and resources and those guys end up joining the group once again.

That was a great interview and eye-opener. He has so clear thoughts and perspectives. The other thing was Arshad asked him short questions and never interrupted him.

 

[Darth Vader]

Army cant fight on empty stomach.
As in this case , problem is people dont know whos stomach should be filled in this first place.

Generals, TTP, Afghan, Politicians or People so someone can fight for Pakistani cause.

General are more worried about political maneuvers than lifes of own Jawans.
People of Pakistan will behave like people of Pakistan,
Dont stand up for own dignity, own interest, heck even for own life
If a nation was blind,coward,deaf and morally dead that be Pakistan.

Lets forget about whats happening now lets focus when operation were in full swing Military was cleaning up the area thousands of refugees in other regions, Military was asking politicians to do own job who are they kidding, why they didn't target TTP supporting infrastructure in Afghanistan, no matter what uncle sam objectives were atleast on media they wouldn't be able to blame Pak as they are hitting terrorists that was the best time for Pak to do but never did.

Single reason Pakistani general's needs blood of civilian and jawans after regular intervals to keep Bloody civilian and politicians in check, to create positive PR for the military, so they can keep a large numeric active force to keep the bogeyman ( India ) in check. While bogeyman in Afghanistan doesn't matter much as mighty general's are out of its reach so why worry about that.

The biggest traitor Pakistan has been facing for last 60 years is Military, which took oath to protect Pakistan

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

we as a nation have to unlearn everything and adapt the approach of Turks, Saudis and / or Iranians.

But the problem is nations had never been changed themselves.
There had always been a leader behind every revolution in the world.
And the state of Pakistan is lacking that f#cking leader to revolutionize its nations.

 

[Dalit]

Very very enjoyable.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

But the problem is nations had never been changed themselves.
There had always been a leader behind every revolution in the world.
And the state of Pakistan is lacking that f#cking leader to revolutionize its nations.

forget the leaders
they are busy fucking or stealing.
the correction is needed at basic ground level.

 

[R2D2]

thanks for concentrating on the message of that article and not who is it from. that writer invites a lot of criticism which is unjustified and misplaced totally drowning the subject matter.

re topic, TTP is undefeatable because its narrative rhymes with the people who are not directly affect by its brutality.
soon after APS tragedy I came across facebook groups where some people were mocking the dead of that tragedy and justifying the killing of those children with fabricated Hadith. they had the gal not only to make fun of the dead but also justify that through Hadiths(made up fake ), the contents of Hadiths go absolutely against what we have learnt and preach about our faith,.
they claimed that the Prophet Muhammad PBUH (أَسْتَغْفِرُ ٱللّٰهَ‎ ) ordered the execution of all prisoners in battle if they were adults and the way to check adulthood was to check their pubes and so all the prisoners were killed. therefore killing these APS kids was justified because at class 8 and above the kids have pubes. it is recoiling even to write that and recall that makes me sick as much as the sign of those kids lying dead in a pile. A class fellow of mine from college days, I know for years has become radicalized, he is openly pro TTP and lives in UK. he actually mocked me and said he draws pleasure seeing those dead kids of army officers he said that to me over the phone he got my number from a whatsapp group. I have no contact with him and blocked him. reporting him wont help because there authorities have nothing to work on unless there is some material evidence to link him to active support of TTP.. you cant get someone arrested for his thoughts alone. I also recall a recorded radio conversation shared on this forum 10 or more years ago between a TTP guy and an army soldier where he also felt proud attacking school vans and promised TTP will continue that and mocked him with laughter when soldier appealed his conscience and faith about harming children,

in Blue Area there is a national bank branch where an officer grade 1 who is a resident of Islamabad swore on his faith and kids that Gen Musharraf had used white phosphorus, daisy cutters, carpet bombing ( in short all the buzz words of second Iraq war) in the red Mosque operation and his soldiers raped students there. this nonsense got traction and was shared because of hatred for Gen Musharraf from political point of view. Imran Khan's PTI started some marches from Lal Masjid as well and only after the mentoring of Gen Shuja Pasha PTI quietly changed its narrative from outright justification to polite condemnation of terror attacks and then to support of Pakistan military until Gen Bajwa pulled the rug again (damn it).

our clerics are not clear. those who do condemn TTP are rejected by their own peers. Red Mosque management is again in the hands of those trouble makers who openly mock the state , refuse to accept it and praise Daesh and TTP and dare the establishment to face them. I have offered prayer there about 12 years ago. the place is jam packed and the Islamabadians love that firebrand scumbag for a Mullah.

I end my post with a mention of Gen Tariq Khan who questioned the use of rehabilitation program of TTP members with minor crimes. he said that after spending 6 to 8 months or deradicalization and teaching them some crafts to earn a peaceful honest living in the society they are sent back to a society which is predominantly radicalized nullifying all the efforts and resources and those guys end up joining the group once again.

after writing all this doom and gloom and pessimism. my conclusion is. we as a nation have to unlearn everything and adapt the approach of Turks, Saudis and / or Iranians. their faith and devotion is no less to ours. And the Islamic faith doesn't come in the way of keep a unified stance against those who use faith or ethnicity but pick arms against their respective countries our people cant claim to be better Muslims than them (I included Saudis, Turks and Iranians to cover every sectarian cupcake here).

Looks like you have been rehired by defence.pk. It was nice listening to your independent news in-between jobs.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Looks like you have been rehired by defence.pk. It was nice listening to your independent news in-between jobs.

glad you liked my prior posts that suited your point of view.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Looks like you have been rehired by defence.pk. It was nice listening to your independent news in-between jobs.

The video you just posted was straight up BS.

 

[FuturePAF]

Negotiations can happen with TTP/Taliban as Pakistan does not have the resource or the will to wipe them out in an all out war, but only from a position of strength.

Few years/decade down the line, the Pakistani state would need to take on the Afghan Taliban. If these dogs don’t become civilised and integrate into the world, Pakistan will have to fight them as well. They are eating Pakistan from within by spreading their extremist ideology.

We have the resources but we are allocating them wrongly. The resources are not military firepower, but the other three elements of D.I.M.E. Diplomatic, Industrial, and Economic. The desire to shift to geo-economics in the National Defense Strategy a year ago highlighted the need to reorient society towards economics to build up the areas of potential strength to deal with our challenges.

We don’t have decades to let this keep festering, we have a small window of time before the Russians and Iranians are no longer distracted and the Afghans are no longer as dependent to get our own house in order so we can establish the rules of the road in our region.

We need at least the fence in most places and in other places a wall, with massive fortifications (with markets, schools and hospitals) on the border to establish the writ of the state.

But this will all be for naught if it’s not sustainable by a society and an economy and a polity that empowers locals that support us and reduces the economic opportunities of those that oppose us.

Remember the slogan after the APS massacre; “we will teach their children”. The average age along the border is 18; a generation or two will be the level of sustained investment (such as spreading parts of the value added mining/textile industry/factories amongst loyal areas because they are safe for business and proof of mutual benefit) to change the course of relations.

 

[Wolfhunter]

Let’s address the elephant on the room. Why is the TTP “undefeated” as yet? The answer - Islam.

As difficult as a pill as this is to swallow, so long as Muslims allow mullahs to twist and shape their faith, allow “PIRs” to intercede on their behalf, donate blindly to online Shaikhs, thoughtless put the the odd 500 rupee note in the black box outside a mosque without asking where it will go and so long as people abuse the blasphemy laws to target innocent people, so long as these things exist… You will never defeat the Taliban.

So the time has come to part state from church, to think critically about Islam and the need for due diligence when it comes to consuming, propagating religious content from random sources on the interweb…

Lastly, being tolerant and human, I feel a lot of so called “Muslims” have in their quest to become the perfect “Musliman” forgotten what it is just to be a decent human.

Just my two cents.

 

[R2D2]

Why defeat TTP in the first place when we can get the whole Afghanistan by just feeding them halwa. Jo gur se mar jae use zehar dene ki kia zaroorat hai?

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

the correction is needed at basic ground level.

It's always system that pushes changes at basic levels also
And that system is brought by true leaders
And we don't have that leaders who can build up a powerful system.

 

[TheSolution]

Pakistan itself gives fuel to groups like TTP.

Obviously if you call yourself an Islamic Republic but then you are releasing things like Joyland and LGBT laws, you're legitimising their narrative and perhaps even turning very moderate folks towards a more radical outlook because they see no other option.

If Pakistan wants to be an Islamic Republic I think it should have laws closer resembling one, and instead of people like this picking up weapons, they'll be more compelled to work under a national political framework for any grievances they may have with the state. Groups like TTP would be easily destroyed if you did this because their narrative wouldn't last.

Negotiations with terrorist groups is also a bad idea because now you indicate to them they have power - their terrorism is having a positive affect for them and you are willing to consider their demands.

But his idea of removing the fence being a "reasonable" demand is short sighted and idiotic, if we removed the fence like he suggests, that would be a significant disaster as Afghanistan is completely unreliable and would use that to their advantage. It just needs to be fortified with maximum surveillance & security but have easy methods to cross over for family.