Why the ethnic hate recently?

[Ssan]

Forcing people to be a part of a nation against their will is a mockery of the very idea of nationhood

Yeah it’s a mockery and it sounds fascist but probably pays dividends in the long run. It’s also how most nation states consolidated their nation identity too. The Chinese did he same thing with the Han identity. Turkey with the Turk identity, heck most European countries went through some process of forcing disparate elements of smaller nations to consolidate into a single national identity.

Unfortunately, only Punjabis, and to some extent Muhajirs truly believe in the idea of Pakistan. For the rest of the ethnic groups in the country, their ethnicity always comes before Pakistan

I think that is the case precisely because the Punjabis and Muhajjirs have been relatively socio-economically well offish. And have seen some progress (arguably at times).

If you were part of a country and didn’t see any progress for decades, and the rest of the country was ignoring your problems (some of them which may be legitimate) then you too would lose patriotism and nationalism. Ultimately, it’s an angle that explains why East Pakistan broke off.

That's a separate issue. Many Turkish people trace their ancestry as Albanian, Bosnian, Greek, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Cypriot, and Arab. Its a very multi ethnic society and I think real Turkish, Central Asian blood such as from Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakstan and Kyrgyzstan and Azerbaijan is not much and very likely they are a minority and you can see that not everyone looks the same. They have different skin colours and facial features.

Ataturk basically forced them to become "Turk" yet at the same time he was a secularist who abolished the Ottomans and Turkish language underwent some disastrous changes from the Islamic (Arabic/Persian) influence to Western (latin/French. Whether its Turkey or anywhere else, the main issue is economics. If people are living well, people's beliefs will change accordingly. Although there is still a secular population living, today it has become a minority and most of the businesses and rich people are from the socially conservative lot. Why? Because under Erdogan people's incomes increased 10x within 20 years.

Yeah but don’t you agree that as far as things go in terms of consolidating a national identity- it was good. Even if it was bad for the other stuff you mentioned.

 

[Edevelop]

Yeah but don’t you agree that as far as things go in terms of consolidating a national identity- it was good. Even if it was bad for the other stuff you mentioned.

For me, it starts and ends with changing the official language. Urdu is a fake language. It has no history and it's origins from India make us look like we belong to an Indian society. Furthermore, changing our language will prevent our people from watching Bollywood and following other ills of Indian culture. Now, considering your point, there 2 options. I'll prefer the second option.

1. Punjabis are the majority, ideally, it could be the 'national language' but funnily its not even official in the province, let alone the task of declaring it all over Pakistan which would invite nothing but more hatred from other ethnic groups. So no, that fails.

2. Punjabi, Pashto, Kashmiri, Balochi, and Sindhi have one thing in common. The languages are branch of Farsi/Dari due to islamic and cultural reasons.Not many people know this but before British Indian colonialism, the people use to speak their regional languages at home and in schools, universities and in interacting with other people, Farsi/Dari was the language of communication. My great grandparents spoke those languages too. I'm a Kashmiri. If you ask a Persian about Kashmir, they will say it is 'little Iran' because we have so much in common although we are far from each other geographically. So what I'm trying to say is, follow the Switzerland model. They have 4 official languages but German is the widely spoken one.

 

[TheSolution]

I think that is the case precisely because the Punjabis and Muhajjirs have been relatively socio-economically well offish. And have seen some progress (arguably at times).

If you were part of a country and didn’t see any progress for decades, and the rest of the country was ignoring your problems (some of them which may be legitimate) then you too would lose patriotism and nationalism. Ultimately, it’s an angle that explains why East Pakistan broke off.

No it isn't. These are just excuses and cope. They are inherently ethnonationalist leaning, regardless of development, and you can tell by the way they speak. It might be hard to accept but it's better to accept this reality than live in delusion.

Their loyalties are mostly with their own province and Afghanistan tbh. Pashtuns historically have always been ethnically chauvinistic.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

He's right though:

"A city of 100k people which exports 4 bn USD annual does not even have proper social facilities and here you are crying about south punjab which doesnt produce anything remotely viable.

My point is lets focus on industry producing areas first a foremost before we lose what little we produce today. In the meantimes whats stoppinh other areas in pakistan from implementing the sialkot model? Sialkot doesn recieve any special benefits than say larger cities."

Invest in what's making you the most money to increase it's output and use partially that money to get South Punjab started.

Where do you think the raw materials for these industrial hubs comes from?

 

[TheSolution]

For me, it starts and ends with changing the official language. Urdu is a fake language. It has no history and it's origins from India make us look like we belong to an Indian society. Furthermore, changing our language will prevent our people from watching Bollywood and following other ills of Indian culture. Now, considering your point, there 2 options. I'll prefer the second option.

1. Punjabis are the majority, ideally, it could be the 'national language' but funnily its not even official in the province, let alone the task of declaring it all over Pakistan which would invite nothing but more hatred from other ethnic groups. So no, that fails.

2. Punjabi, Pashto, Kashmiri, Balochi, and Sindhi have one thing in common. The languages are branch of Farsi/Dari. Not many people know this but before British colonialism, the people use to speak their regional languages at home and in schools, universities and in interacting with other people, Farsi/Dari was the language of communication. My great grandparents spoke those languages too. I'm a Kashmiri. If you ask a Persian about Kashmir, they will say it is 'little Iran' because we have so much in common although we are far from each other geographically. So what I'm trying to say is, follow the Switzerland model. They have 4 official languages but German is the widely spoken one.

A federal nation with ethnic provinces like Pakistan without a lingua franca only creates more division and less "unity". It's also required for practical reasons. Urdu is really the only viable language.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Where do you think the raw materials for these industrial hubs comes from?

most third world countries export raw materials to manufacturing countries with better living standards, who in turn earn more than 3rd world countries
now that doesnt mean you turn them into dumps like what we do in Pak, but they cant be equal unless they become manufacturing cities or reegions

 

[TheSolution]

Yeah it’s a mockery and it sounds fascist but probably pays dividends in the long run. It’s also how most nation states consolidated their nation identity too. The Chinese did he same thing with the Han identity. Turkey with the Turk identity, heck most European countries went through some process of forcing disparate elements of smaller nations to consolidate into a single national identity.

While you're right, it's the storm before the calm. You need to do some questionable things to get permanent stability. Nearly all stable and powerful nations today were strict like this at one point in time.

But it's difficult for Pakistan because it will cause uproar, you don't exactly have a clear plan either.

 

[Edevelop]

A federal nation with ethnic provinces like Pakistan without a lingua franca only creates more division and less "unity". It's also required for practical reasons. Urdu is really the only viable language.

Modern day Israel has ethnic groups such as Polish, Russian, Hungarian, Arab, Ethiopian etc. Yet the state of Israel is as old as Pakistan and Hebrew was literally re-born and everyone knows about their nationalism. Urdu was imposed on us through colonialism. We don't want to change it because we are afraid or we are just too comfortable and lazy

 

[Maula Jatt]

Modern day Israel has ethnic groups such as Polish, Russian, Hungarian, Arab, Ethiopian etc. Yet the state of Israel is as old as Pakistan and Hebrew was literally re-born and everyone knows about their nationalism. Urdu was imposed on us through colonialism. We don't want to change it because we are afraid or we are just too comfortable and lazy

both, only issue is indians can understand our lingua franca, other than that - we re fine , even most of Afghanistan through Bollywood and Iranian Balochistan through Pakistani drams can understand urdu
much, much bigger issues than Urdu- issues like bringing political stability by ending the role of the establishment in politics, ending parliamentary democracy and replacing it with an Indonesian style of Presidential democracy (or bringing electoral votes to bring more equality between states)

nor am I a fan of making a foreign Iranian language a lingua franca, I am a nationalist and imposition of foreign culture's and languages should be discouraged, any of our local native languages is a much better proposition for me than foreign ones (although I think its a nonissue anyways...)

 

[Edevelop]

both, only issue is indians can understand our lingua franca, other than that - we re fine , even most of Afghanistan through Bollywood and Iranian Balochistan through Pakistani drams can understand urdu
much, much bigger issues than Urdu

In Iran, our poets are appreciated and respected. Allama Iqbal said himself he preferred writing in Farsi. On the other hand, I think you are talking about the ethnic groups who are common between India and Pakistan. I think they understand those languages and what do they do? Their entertainment industry steal our Urdu and Punjabi music and label it as their own. I doubt they have done the same with Pashto because no one speaks Pashto there lol. Btw, Farsi is not a foreign language. It was well known to our population due to islamic empires before British colonialism. We are a federation and cradle of civilizations, not a single ethnic group. Farsi is also spoken in Afghanistan and Tajikistan yet they have not become Iranic. In fact even in Iran, the ethnic groups are not pure Farsi speakers per say because Farsi language comes from a tiny province called Fars. It has even influenced as far as Turkey. Its about finding common ground. Our history and culture is close to our western borders than it is on the Eastern border and it is pretty disappointing that we forget that Iran is our next door neighbour.

 

[ThunderCat]

Modern day Israel has ethnic groups such as Polish, Russian, Hungarian, Arab, Ethiopian etc. Yet the state of Israel is as old as Pakistan and Hebrew was literally re-born and everyone knows about their nationalism. Urdu was imposed on us through colonialism. We don't want to change it because we are afraid or we are just too comfortable and lazy

It originates from our medieval forefathers in the Punjab from contact with the Ghaznavids. This was centuries before the North Indian Muslim poet gave it the name "urdu."

Try not to be ignorant and read history. It has been our lingua franca and serves as a neutral non-ethnic language. North Indian Muslims later adopting it as their native language and calling it "Urdu" does not make it theirs, nor does it become an ethnic language.

 

[Maula Jatt]

In Iran, our poets are appreciated and respected. Allama Iqbal said himself he preferred writing in Farsi.

so what man? I dont want to learn and speak that gay language, I love our own languages, any of our native one, but I dont want foreign stuff on our lands

besides first we need to focus on more important stuff, down the line when things are improving than you can maybe look for making any of the provincial language into lingua franca

 

[Tamerlane]

Every problem in Pakistan, including ethnic divisions, has a solution. Sometimes people seem to think that Pakistan has unique insolvable issues. But in reality all these problems have been solved in other parts of the world before. Almost every country started off with a multiplicity of ethnicities, languages, etc. but they used scientific methods to unite their country.

It all starts with good governance. Education and development can get rid of most of Pakistan’s problems, including ethnic divisions.

A good example of Pakistan having its own unique and common culture can be seen when attending upper middle class Pakistani functions, like weddings, both in Pakistan in the West. There’s a common language and culture and it’s hard to tell who belongs to which ethnicity, and no one cares about it.

But if we carry on with military-backed looters then the country is on the verge of falling apart.

 

[TheSolution]

Modern day Israel has ethnic groups such as Polish, Russian, Hungarian, Arab, Ethiopian etc. Yet the state of Israel is as old as Pakistan and Hebrew was literally re-born and everyone knows about their nationalism. Urdu was imposed on us through colonialism. We don't want to change it because we are afraid or we are just too comfortable and lazy

And they all see themselves as Jewish which is a uniquely binding identity that is nowhere comparable to "Pakistani" - you can't replicate that as it has a long basis in history.

Pashtuns feel more connection the Pashtun ethnic identity and Afghanistan. Baloch mostly don't recognise Pakistan's formation at all. Pakistan is a very recent ideology and cannot be compared to these examples you've given.

Secondly, it's just totally unfeasible to adapt to a completely new language. Toying around with such concepts like a lingua franca makes Pakistan seem like a joke of an experiment.

Urdu is linked to the subcontinent at least - and while I don't like it due to the influence it gives of Indian society onto us, unless you want to make one of our indegenous languages as a lingua francua, then it's a bad idea. Sounds like you want to adopt Farsi? Just doesn't seen feasible to me and seems cringe

 

[Erieye]

both, only issue is indians can understand our lingua franca, other than that - we re fine , even most of Afghanistan through Bollywood and Iranian Balochistan through Pakistani drams can understand urdu
much, much bigger issues than Urdu- issues like bringing political stability by ending the role of the establishment in politics, ending parliamentary democracy and replacing it with an Indonesian style of Presidential democracy (or bringing electoral votes to bring more equality between states)

nor am I a fan of making a foreign Iranian language a lingua franca, I am a nationalist and imposition of foreign culture's and languages should be discouraged, any of our local native languages is a much better proposition for me than foreign ones (although I think its a nonissue anyways...)

Urdu is more connected to us than Farsi is. Switching to Farsi would be entirely foreign and incredibly cringe. At least Urdu originated from the subcontient.

Plus I think it's way too late to change lingua francas and would be difficult.

For me, it starts and ends with changing the official language. Urdu is a fake language. It has no history and it's origins from India make us look like we belong to an Indian society. Furthermore, changing our language will prevent our people from watching Bollywood and following other ills of Indian culture. Now, considering your point, there 2 options. I'll prefer the second option.

1. Punjabis are the majority, ideally, it could be the 'national language' but funnily its not even official in the province, let alone the task of declaring it all over Pakistan which would invite nothing but more hatred from other ethnic groups. So no, that fails.

2. Punjabi, Pashto, Kashmiri, Balochi, and Sindhi have one thing in common. The languages are branch of Farsi/Dari due to islamic and cultural reasons.Not many people know this but before British Indian colonialism, the people use to speak their regional languages at home and in schools, universities and in interacting with other people, Farsi/Dari was the language of communication. My great grandparents spoke those languages too. I'm a Kashmiri. If you ask a Persian about Kashmir, they will say it is 'little Iran' because we have so much in common although we are far from each other geographically. So what I'm trying to say is, follow the Switzerland model. They have 4 official languages but German is the widely spoken one.

Language is a non-issue, the problems we see today have nothing to do with language really.

although undeniably it does give India cultural depth into Pakistan.

right now the problem is quite frankly ethno-nationalism, changing a language is not going to fix that. Strengthing your national identity will.