Why religion and politics don't go together.

[313ghazi]

People all around the glob praise the west, but ignore their moral depravity, Homosexuality on the rise, LGBTQ, public drunkenness, mothers having slept with multiple men before having children, 50%+ divorce rate, cutting ties between families and friends (senior homes), I could write 5 pages on this, but you get the idea.

Ask yourself whether or not this is what all progressive countries have in common? Look at LA, the height of progressiveness, it's heaven for those who are rich, but hell for those who are poor.

I've noticed this trend between all developing countries, whenever they reach a height of progressiveness, there is without a doubt moral depravity that follows. Progressiveness is not a one way deal, there are certain sacrifices that you'd have to make for it and they are often moral sacrifices.

This is not to say that we shouldn't progress, rather, are we willing to give up our beliefs at the cost of it? You speak of the negativities of Muslim nations, but don't speak about the positivities of it, your nation Pakistan wouldn't be here if not for Islam, and the only thing holding it together is Islam.

Brother, we should look inwards for the answer to this too. You live in Canada i assume. You will know other people who are Muslim who openly engage in haram, and others who live in the same society and refrain from it? What is the difference between these people? Some of it will be nature, opportunity etc - but a large part of it is Taqwa.

In our Muslim societies do we focus on Taqwa or do we focus on presenting an outward face of taqwa? Do we question our intention when we do acts of worship or refrain from haram? IDK about Afghanistan, but in Pakistan a lot of what we consider appropriate or not is underpinned by "dunya kya soche gi?!"

I have found so often that the focus when teaching Islamic values at a young age is reward and punishment, heaven and hell, - rather than love for Allah, or love of doing the right thing, or the impact on others of doing wrong. In our deen we are taught we can hope that our failures in huquq ul Allah, but only people can forgive our shortcomings in huqooq ul ibaad. You'd think that would lead to a focus on ensuring we don't wrong each other, but instead we have societies where everyone is out to get everyone else.

We need to correct this, this is as important as basic literacy.

 

[Battle of Waterloo]

Typical racist comment targetted at migrants. Everyone knows full well people left for economic opportunity. Perhaps it reflects that you can't argue the mans point so you're trying to deflect and troll.

It's a criticism against political islam, nothing to do with race. If political islam was as good as that guy says it is, he wouldn't need to leave a system of political islam to live under a totally opposite system of secular liberal democracy.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Brother, we should look inwards for the answer to this too. You live in Canada i assume. You will know other people who are Muslim who openly engage in haram, and others who live in the same society and refrain from it? What is the difference between these people? Some of it will be nature, opportunity etc - but a large part of it is Taqwa.

In our Muslim societies do we focus on Taqwa or do we focus on presenting an outward face of taqwa? Do we question our intention when we do acts of worship or refrain from haram? IDK about Afghanistan, but in Pakistan a lot of what we consider appropriate or not is underpinned by "dunya kya soche gi?!"

I have found so often that the focus when teaching Islamic values at a young age is reward and punishment, heaven and hell, - rather than love for Allah, or love of doing the right thing, or the impact on others of doing wrong. In our deen we are taught we can hope that our failures in huquq ul Allah, but only people can forgive our shortcomings in huqooq ul ibaad. You'd think that would lead to a focus on ensuring we don't wrong each other, but instead we have societies where everyone is out to get everyone else.

We need to correct this, this is as important as basic literacy.

I feel the same way the problem is hard to talk openly about Islamic topics online and irl because everyone is raised differently espacilly in the west or in multi ethnic societies so it hard to find people that you could talk topics or guide each other and sadly these days people are so atomized on the screen all the time and the feeling of mistrust among people and cheating is higher than ever which pushes folks who want to talk to become insular

 

[H. Dawary]

Brother, we should look inwards for the answer to this too. You live in Canada i assume. You will know other people who are Muslim who openly engage in haram, and others who live in the same society and refrain from it? What is the difference between these people? Some of it will be nature, opportunity etc - but a large part of it is Taqwa.

In our Muslim societies do we focus on Taqwa or do we focus on presenting an outward face of taqwa? Do we question our intention when we do acts of worship or refrain from haram? IDK about Afghanistan, but in Pakistan a lot of what we consider appropriate or not is underpinned by "dunya kya soche gi?!"

I have found so often that the focus when teaching Islamic values at a young age is reward and punishment, heaven and hell, - rather than love for Allah, or love of doing the right thing, or the impact on others of doing wrong. In our deen we are taught we can hope that our failures in huquq ul Allah, but only people can forgive our shortcomings in huqooq ul ibaad. You'd think that would lead to a focus on ensuring we don't wrong each other, but instead we have societies where everyone is out to get everyone else.

We need to correct this, this is as important as basic literacy.

I understand your points and will consider them.

It's a criticism against political islam, nothing to do with race. If political islam was as good as that guy says it is, he wouldn't need to leave a system of political islam to live under a totally opposite system of secular liberal democracy.

I came here as a kid when I was very young, I didn't choose to come here, but don't worry I will be leaving back the moment your soldiers leave from my country. You should tell your politicians that they stop interfering in our countries and stop creating false flags, then you won't be seeing our kind...

 

[313ghazi]

It's a criticism against political islam, nothing to do with race. If political islam was as good as that guy says it is, he wouldn't need to leave a system of political islam to live under a totally opposite system of secular liberal democracy.

You're right, racism is a clumsy way to term it, i should have thought more about my words.

I won't answer for him, but I suspect if you were to ask him why his country is in such a poor state compared to France he might point at colonialism, and the legacy left behind. Tunisia has not had any "Islamic governance" in over 150 years.

It might be co-incidence, but there wasn't mass migration from Muslim lands into Non Muslim lands before the west colonised Muslim countries, stripped them of their assets, imposed yes-men in charge and continues to this day to interfer in the political system of these countries. Of course we can't say for sure - though if someone was to drawn a map of where the worlds wealth/resources moved, you might find the worlds populations moved towards the same places.

Also interestingly enough I'd argue there isn't a big difference between a Islamic political model and a secular political model. The mechanisms to deliver governance are different, but at the end of the day we all want the same thing, safety, shelter, health, freedom.

 

[HannibalBarca]

Contradictions, contradictions. The best place to cry about virtues of teetoling is inside a club full of drunks. The best place to cry virtures of virginity is inside a brothel full of crackhead whores.

You will be right... If I love political Islam... you will be right... If I left Tunisia... and you will be not put to shame if you asked first...
As I told you before... Don't let yourself associated with those type of ppl... Since if they fall you fall with them...

Desires/Emotion Driven behavior.,.. will only fail you, sir...

 

[Battle of Waterloo]

You're right, racism is a clumsy way to term it, i should have thought more about my words.

I won't answer for him, but I suspect if you were to ask him why his country is in such a poor state compared to France he might point at colonialism, and the legacy left behind. Tunisia has not had any "Islamic governance" in over 150 years.

It might be co-incidence, but there wasn't mass migration from Muslim lands into Non Muslim lands before the west colonised Muslim countries, stripped them of their assets, imposed yes-men in charge and continues to this day to interfer in the political system of these countries. Of course we can't say for sure - though if someone was to drawn a map of where the worlds wealth/resources moved, you might find the worlds populations moved towards the same places.

Also interestingly enough I'd argue there isn't a big difference between a Islamic political model and a secular political model. The mechanisms to deliver governance are different, but at the end of the day we all want the same thing, safety, shelter, health, freedom.

There are indeed perfectly valid criticisms to be made of colonialism (whether that be European colonialism, European settler-colonialism in the USA/Israel or Islamic colonialism before that).

 

[313ghazi]

There are indeed perfectly valid criticisms to be made of colonialism (whether that be European colonialism, European settler-colonialism in the USA/Israel or Islamic colonialism before that).

Yeah, the business of Empire has always had a streak of asset stripping in it. I was in Istanbul a few years ago. I saw pillars that the Romans had taken from Eygpt to decorate what was then Constantinople. It was quite something, to stare at a monument that had been built by one empire, moved by another and then claimed by a third.

For as long as there has been man, powerful men have taken what was earned by the less powerful. We just hide it better today.

 

[SingHee]

The problem is that some misguided people have been led to believe a repetition of past history would be ideal even though the world is no longer entirely the same.

What the misguiders choose to ignore is the understanding of ideological context, and how that contextual understanding would apply to fundamentally different societies and social structures while ensuring the original aims are met. However, just like time cannot stand still, nothing can be completely rigid and completely fair at the same time.

Sometimes, when presented with a choice, neither may present perfect results. I believe the concept is called the lesser of the two evils. The purpose of ideology is to guide people in all circumstances, and not to force people to live in a make-believe world that can no longer effectively ensure a fair and balanced existence.

Nevertheless, the most important thing is letting people make their own choices, and learn through their own, internal mechanisms of improvement, as to not do so would also go against the above principle by taking away their right to naturally progress.

 

[Lincoln]

I don't follow this logic, because history has shown that in every society with this separation, religion has become irrelevant and functioning only as a tool for government.

The Islamic system was well established during the time of Prophet Muhammad saws and 4 Rashidoon. Quran and Sunnah are very clear on that.

Functioning only as a tool for the Government, what?

If the religion goes irrelevant then it probably wasn't meant to be. Are you implying that Islam needs a Government to keep it afloat? Think before you hit enter.

It's about Muslim and you sir, are not a Muslim... so butt off.
And if you dream that Pakistan or Any Muslim country will end up a Kuffar nation... then just Forget about it...

ISLAM will prevail...whatever you like it or not...

We all believe that Islam will prevail till judgement day, but your belief is weak, you believe that Islam needs a Government which enforces it to keep it afloat. That is extremely sad.

 

[HannibalBarca]

you believe that Islam needs a Government which enforces it to keep it afloat. That is extremely sad.

Where did I say so?

The problem is that some misguided people have been led to believe a repetition of past history would be ideal even though the world is no longer entirely the same.

What the misguiders choose to ignore is the understanding of ideological context, and how that contextual understanding would apply to fundamentally different societies and social structures while ensuring the original aims are met. However, just like time cannot stand still, nothing can be completely rigid and completely fair at the same time.

Sometimes, when presented with a choice, neither may present perfect results. I believe the concept is called the lesser of the two evils. The purpose of ideology is to guide people in all circumstances, and not to force people to live in a make-believe world that can no longer effectively ensure a fair and balanced existence.

Nevertheless, the most important thing is letting people make their own choices, and learn through their own, internal mechanisms of improvement, as to not do so would also go against the above principle by taking away their right to naturally progress.

You, sir just made a paradoxical statement...
History repeat itself... because of letting ppl making their own choices and learning from it...

History repeat itself when Civilization exchange knowledge with Ignorance ...

 

[SingHee]

Where did I say so?



You, sir just made a paradoxical statement...
History repeat itself... because of letting ppl making their own choices and learning from it...

History repeat itself when Civilization exchange knowledge with Ignorance ...

You misunderstand.

History cannot repeat itself, but people make the same mistakes.

 

[Lincoln]

Where did I say so?



You, sir just made a paradoxical statement...
History repeat itself... because of letting ppl making their own choices and learning from it...

History repeat itself when Civilization exchange knowledge with Ignorance ...

You imply that by saying that making a country secular will make religion irrelevant.

 

[HannibalBarca]

You misunderstand.

History cannot repeat itself, but people make the same mistakes.

Human societies tend to WISH to feel what their ancestors felt in their time... The glory of a time... The greatness of another...The power of the latter and so on... Humans tend to push and create conditions for that to be "Repeated" it's an unconscious pattern that made us what we are today... Without it... We will still be in the stone age...

History also teach us... that it does repeat itself... not by the letter but by the shape/conditions/results etc... And thankfully for us... it does... thankfully...

So yes... People wish to repeat the past (ie History) Therefore MUST go through those same "conditions" (ie Mistakes, as you call them) to make it to their time... It's an Endless Circle... a Necessary one.

You imply that by saying that making a country secular will make religion irrelevant.

No. maybe you got the wrong guy.

 

[SingHee]

Human societies tend to WISH to feel what their ancestors felt in their time... The glory of a time... The greatness of another...The power of the latter and so on... Humans tend to push and create conditions for that to be "Repeated" it's an unconscious pattern that made us what we are today... Without it... We will still be in the stone age...

History also teach us... that it does repeat itself... not by the letter but by the shape/conditions/results etc... And thankfully for us... it does... thankfully...

So yes... People wish to repeat the past (ie History) Therefore MUST go through those same "conditions" (ie Mistakes, as you call them) to make it to their time... It's an Endless Circle... a Necessary one.

All of humanity wants to improve itself, and some may even call that a purpose for existence.

Along the way, we may make the same mistakes due to a lack of knowledge or understanding, and even get carried away by emotion, but the end result is consistent with the concept of finite time. If we refuse to accept the nature of our existence, we may not achieve all that we as people or even whole civilisations had the potential to.