Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

[OrionHunter]

Eurofighter even if not more capable but was a much better choice than rafale anyday.

India Should not expect the delivery of first rafale before 2018(Those delivered by France) and atleast not before 2020 for the HAL assembled Rafale.In the end,the order will be completed around 2027-29

By when the Rafale would have become obsolete!!

 

[he-man]

Why not buy a 5th generation aircraft for the same unit price, and it will start to arrive around the same time frame as well (2018-2020).

Pakfa will start from 2021-22 onwards anyways but it cannot do the things rafale can due to limited no one missiles it can carry in the weapon bays.
Yes we can have missiles on wingtips installed too but then whats the requirement for stealth!!.
But we need rafale to fill gaps that will occur due to retirement of mig-21,27,sepecat jaguar.

The contract ideally should have been signed 2 years back but growth rate fell to 5% in that period and due to this the issue has been dragging for a while.So the original plan was to have rafale before 2020 and start pakfa after that in a sequential pattern,,now due to cost concerns and stupid bureaucracy we would need to sign all these contracts at once and thats a big headache.Moreover lca is still in the testing,lca mk2 is still in designing phase and we are attempting another stealth plane of our own,,,AMCA.

We have tied ourselves in knots due to this delay....................but make no mistake rafale is indeed needed to fill up the squadron strength

 

[Makaramarma]

Please do not consider this deal as a buying selling deal of some aircraft..... Here what India will get with deal is high technical advancement ...This deal is having capability to change the face of Indian Aviation Industry.

Sorry to break your bubble, but since I work in this field I can assure you nothing of that sort is going to happen.

The deal HAD the potential to change the face of Indian Aviation but as of right now it will do nothing except give employment to HAL for the next 15 years.

It is just glorified screw driver technology. Tomorrow if there is a EU embargo I can assure you we will NOT be able to produce a flyable Rafale.

Sad but True.

The end result is that the west will have is one more leverage to ensure we cannot test any more Nukes or further it.

 

[acid rain]

In case India cannot afford rafale at that price, we should buy 60- 70 UAE and Quatar mirages as stop gap..
For the next 5 years, until LCA mk 2 and FGFA makes through..

Since we have facilities for upgraded mirages , and weapons package bought with 500 Mica already,
It wouldn't be that expensive, may be it's my imagination.. Considering now much France charges,,.

My wishful speculation is..
Used mirages at 15 million $ + French charges 5 million $ = 20 million $ per craft
70 * 20 = 1400

Not a bad deal if we get it at that price ...
Add another 2.5 billion dollars for weapons... Say 1000 Mica..

Btw I firmly supported buying brand new rafale instead of upgrading mirages at 2.4 billion dollars when France was closing down mirage facility..

The author didnt mention the per unit cost of gripen that brazil ended up paying.

per gripen cost them 120 million each, which is pretty high for a limited capabilities plane.

life cycle cost of F35 will cross 350 million per frame with very limited TOT on parts.

If I am not wrong, the IAF keeps Mirages operationalized for a very particular reason.

What we need is a replacement for mig21 and gripens collaborative offer on LCA is quite promising.

 

[he-man]

Please do not consider this deal as a buying selling deal of some aircraft..... Here what India will get with deal is high technical advancement ...This deal is having capability to change the face of Indian Aviation Industry.

No they are not...mki is a liability due to huge rcs.
Plus its no match for rafale in anything except fuel reserve and range.
Thirdly an upgraded mki with aesa and qwip irst will end up costing at least 70-75 million$,,,maybe even more than that so its not that cheap anyways.

On lca,,,sorry dude first let it clear foc and then we may talk

Sorry to break your bubble, but since I work in this field I can assure you nothing of that sort is going to happen.

The deal HAD the potential to change the face of Indian Aviation but as of right now it will do nothing except give employment to HAL for the next 15 years.

It is just glorified screw driver technology. Tomorrow if there is a EU embargo I can assure you we will NOT be able to produce a flyable Rafale.

Sad but True.

The end result is that the west will have is one more leverage to ensure we cannot test any more Nukes or further it.

Problem is we have 0 alternative,,,absolutely 0.

It was better had we invested in pakfa initially but as of now our investment in that too stands at 0..........only 300 million$ for design contract has been signed as of yet.

I was of the opinion that we should get only pakfa,albeit more numbers and circumvent the rafale completely.
And what about lca man??
Its still far from even foc

 

[Makaramarma]

No they are not...mki is a liability due to huge rcs.
Plus its no match for rafale in anything except fuel reserve and range.
Thirdly an upgraded mki with aesa and qwip irst will end up costing at least 70-75 million$,,,maybe even more than that so its not that cheap anyways.

On lca,,,sorry dude first let it clear foc and then we may talk

Since China fly's the same aircraft with its "huge rcs", it is enough to be a deterrent. No need to mention pakistan.

Now unless we are planing to fight the USA, but then again Rafale falls short.

Pour another billion and we will have FOC in no time. But no, we would much rather give that billion to france.

Problem is we have 0 alternative,,,absolutely 0.

It was better had we invested in pakfa initially but as of now our investment in that too stands at 0..........only 300 million$ for design contract has been signed as of yet.

I was of the opinion that we should get only pakfa,albeit more numbers and circumvent the rafale completely.
And what about lca man??
Its still far from even foc

PAK FA is a piped dream. Russia is going to SCREW US BIG TIME over it.

Mark my word.

Russia just signed a 400 BILLION $ deal with china. Russia now is irrevocable with China now. Its a new world order and we better wake up fast.

 

[kaykay]

Rafale is a must deal for India. it don't just give us some cutting edge techs but also give us an aircraft with very high availability rate which no Russian aircrafts can give

 

[he-man]

Since China fly's the same aircraft with its "huge rcs", it is enough to be a deterrent. No need to mention pakistan.

Now unless we are planing to fight the USA, but then again Rafale falls short.

Pour another billion and we will have FOC in no time. But no, we would much rather give that billion to france.

U are missing the chinese j-10b,j-20 and j-35 with very small signature.
Plus lca is no match for rafale,not even close.

Pakfa i agree was a great deal,we should have got the initial units with older engine of su-35s,there was nothing wrong in it but then air force got greedy and lost its brains.

I mean we are attempting to make

lca mk1
lca mk2
amca
rafale
pakfa

almost at the same time!!

 

[sathya]

The author didnt mention the per unit cost of gripen that brazil ended up paying.

per gripen cost them 120 million each, which is pretty high for a limited capabilities plane.

life cycle cost of F35 will cross 350 million per frame with very limited TOT on parts.

If I am not wrong, the IAF keeps Mirages operationalized for a very particular reason.

What we need is a replacement for mig21 and gripens collaborative offer on LCA is quite promising.

Gripens need new facility and packages .. Time line will be after 2018..
.. So why not mirages 2009 ,stop gap until lca2 & FGFA come online..

Between mirage 2009 can fill the role of mmrca until 2020..

 

[he-man]

Rafale is a must deal for India. it don't just give us some cutting edge techs but also give us an aircraft with very high availability rate which no Russian aircrafts can give

I told u last year too we would not have money for both rafale and pakfa at the same time.....................

Rafale is fine but can we attempt to make 5-6 different planes at the same time??please answer that

Gripens need new facility and packages .. Time line will be after 2018..
.. So why not mirages 2009 ,stop gap until lca2 & FGFA come online..

Between mirage 2009 can fill the role of mmrca until 2020..

Not at all dude,,,they are way way below the minimum criterion put out for mmrca

 

[Makaramarma]

U are missing the chinese j-10b,j-20 and j-35 with very small signature.
Plus lca is no match for rafale,not even close.

Pakfa i agree was a great deal,we should have got the initial units with older engine of su-35s,there was nothing wrong in it but then air force got greedy and lost its brains.

I mean we are attempting to make

lca mk1
lca mk2
amca
rafale
pakfa

almost at the same time!!

We cannot be in an arms race with a nation who's economy is 4 times ours. All we can hope for is deterrence and Leverage.

Expect Modi to make all efforts to be best friends with china and expand our relationship with china's enemies like Japan and USA.

A strategic level initiative is now required to counter this threat, not tactical decisions like buy Rafale to defend ourselves.

Better to test new Nukes and build infallible missiles and missile defence than buy Rafale. That is what logic dictates. Time to learn some lessons from pakistan too.

 

[kaykay]

I told u last year too we would not have money for both rafale and pakfa at the same time.....................

Rafale is fine but can we attempt to make 5-6 different planes at the same time??please answer that



Not at all dude,,,they are way way below the minimum criterion put out for mmrca

5-6 aircrafts? are you talking about manufacturing or R&D? anyway our own projects are gonna be LCA and amca while manufacturing of these aircrafts are not going to be very difficult once r&d is done. while we can use some techs from Rafale in our future projects like amca and LCA.

 

[he-man]

We cannot be in an arms race with a nation who's economy is 4 times ours. All we can hope for is deterrence and Leverage.

Expect Modi to make all efforts to be best friends with china and expand our relationship with china's enemies like Japan and USA.

A strategic level initiative is now required to counter this threat, not tactical decisions like buy Rafale to defend ourselves.

Better to test new Nukes and build infallible missiles and missile defence than buy Rafale. That is what logic dictates. Time to learn some lessons from pakistan too.

I understand what u mean.
As earlier pointed out the best was to just get pakfa...................it was more than enough.

But as i said air force got greedy

5-6 aircrafts? are you talking about manufacturing or R&D? anyway our own projects are gonna be LCA and amca while manufacturing of these aircrafts are not going to be very difficult once r&d is done. while we can use some techs from Rafale in our future projects like amca and LCA.

I am talking on the monetary side of things.

Can we keep ordering 5 different planes at the same time??
I mean can we really afford it?

Amca is just a stupid idea in my opinion,,,,first get mk1 and 2 flying and then think of anything else

 

[Makaramarma]

I understand what u mean.
As earlier pointed out the best was to just get pakfa...................it was more than enough.

But as i said air force got greedy

I am talking on the monetary side of things.

Can we keep ordering 5 different planes at the same time??
I mean can we really afford it?

Amca is just a stupid idea in my opinion,,,,first get mk1 and 2 flying and then think of anything else

After the 400 Billion $ Russia China deal, PAK FA is now not a safe bet. It was always a dicey deal and it just got dicier.

From a strategic point of view we are currently between the deep sea and the devil.

Our ONLY salvation is to pump LARGE amount of money (Billions of $) into DOMESTIC R&D and build up Capability so that we can leverage our PPP economy to counter the $ GDP of china.

LCA and AMCA is our way out. Now more than ever.

 

[he-man]

After the 400 Billion $ Russia China deal, PAK FA is now not a safe bet. It was always a dicey deal and it just got dicier.

From a strategic point of view we are currently between the deep sea and the devil.

Our ONLY salvation is to pump LARGE amount of money (Billions of $) into DOMESTIC R&D and build up Capability so that we can leverage our PPP economy to counter the $ GDP of china.

LCA and AMCA is our way out. Now more than ever.

Do u know that russia first offerd the pakfa to china for joint development,,,,china rejected it and developed the j-20.
After that russians came to us.

What u are suggesting is impossible to happen,,ur intentions may be good but its not gonna happen