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Why Pakistan will go to the IMF again, and again and again

You live in USA and I in UK. Every political party promises the stars. I have yet to see a manifesto which did the 'sell' with -

  • can't do that
  • won't do that
  • imposible to do that
That does not mean PTI can't do anything. Pakistan has problems that have built up over seven decades. To fix everything in 5 years is impossible. What we can expect is PTI to lay the groundwork for change - which thrn rolls in increments over time. Raise literacy standards and health etc A better educated and healthier Pakistan will go on to a better future.

No offence my friend but most of them are rent seekers feeding on patronage. I made a sweeping statement which stands. Industry in Pakistan is like Sahara desert. A few scattered oasis of green here and there in a vast expanse of sterile sand. You know how you can see the rent seekers from real industrialists? The latter do not depend on the state and can operate on the international scene where the market is cut throat and you have no protection. Think of all those sport goods exporters of Sialkot. Yes I give them credit because they have even won world contracts like footbals with FIFA. But those are the 'oasis' in the desert. Pakistan is a 200 million country. Tell me where is our TATA? Where is our Reliance?

Tell me one Pakistani brand that I can go right now to purchase in my city?

Depends if you have a Pakistani shop, but if you do you could be Shezan drinks, Shaan chaat masala (and other masalas), white pearl basmati rice...lol You could even pop out to a Khaadi store and buy yourself a kurta.

There are a few but your point is right. We've not developed big brands yet. It's a challenge for our businessmen. Where is the Pakistani company name everyone knows? It's not there yet, but it's coming. It'd be great to have an infosys or an Audi or something like that, but i'd also be happy with a 1000 more of the smaller names i've just mentioned.
 
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No offence my friend but most of them are rent seekers feeding on patronage. I made a sweeping statement which stands. Industry in Pakistan is like Sahara desert. A few scattered oasis of green here and there in a vast expanse of sterile sand. You know how you can differantiate the rent seekers from real industrialists? The latter do not depend on the state and can operate on the international scene where the market is cut throat and you have no protection. Think of all those sport goods exporters of Sialkot. Yes I give them credit because they have even won world contracts like footbals with FIFA. But those are the 'oasis' in the desert. Pakistan is a 200 million country. Tell me where is our TATA? Where is our Reliance?
Sorry IDA :)
but I may reply in detail later.
 
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Depends if you have a Pakistani shop, but if you do you could be Shezan drinks, Shaan chaat masala (and other masalas), white pearl basmati rice...lol You could even pop out to a Khaadi store and buy yourself a kurta.
I know about them mate. Those are variant of "rent seeking" in that they rely on me and you as ex-pats to buy them. They cater for the Pakistan ex-pat market. I am talking about brands that go out and beyond the captive national markets. Can we go beyond this incestous stuff.

I drive past Jaguar dealership and think TATA. You know and I know Jaguar is not feeding off on the British-Indian market but is a global brand. In Rotherham I have driven past TATA Steel etc. These companies are out there in the world market and not just feeding like parasites on the captive Pakistani market - abroad or at home. That way I could point to PIA but you know and I know it's poor sods like you and me who keep it flying.

I mentioned footbals. Those exporters in Sialkot get my respect. You can't say they are relying on captive markets. Paks are not known to be soccer lovers. Yet those manufacturers got contracts from FIFA. They are the heros in Pakistan. Rest are just parasites relying on captive market rent seeking.
 
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I know about them mate. Those are variant of "rent seeking" in that they rely on me and you as ex-pats to buy them. They cater for the Pakistan ex-pat market. I am talking about brands that go out and beyond the captive national markets. Can we go beyond this incestous stuff.

I drive past Jaguar dealership and think TATA. You know and I know Jaguar is not feeding off on the British-Indian market but is a global brand. In Rotherham I have driven past TATA Steel etc. These companies are out there in the world market and not just feeding like parasites on the captive Pakistani market - abroad or at home. That way I could point to PIA but you know and I know it's poor sods like you and me who keep it flying.

I mentioned footbals. Those exporters in Sialkot get my respect. You can't say they are relying on captive markets. Paks are know known to be soccer lovers. Yet those manufacturers got contracts from FIFA. They are the heros in Pakistan. Rest are just parasites relying on captive market rent seeking.

I wouldn't describe them as parasites. You do what you have to do to get a foothold in the market. A few years ago Shaan would have been found only in the "desi shops", today it's in Asda too. It's an ethnic food, it's going to be consumed mostly by people linked to that ethnicity.

Khaadi for example are different. They're trying exactly the kind of thing you mentioned. I've been to one of his stores in Birmingham, it's not on Alum Rock Rd, or Stratford Rd, it's in the bull ring centre, 2 doors down from Selfridges. It's not merely selling salwar kameez either, they've developed a lot of products to sell to a UK market. Will he succeed? IDK, but if he could be the Pakistani version of Monsoon i'd consider him a big success.

http://tns.thenews.com.pk/man-sultan/#.W8dlcPlRdhE

https://tribune.com.pk/story/861253/the-rat-race-to-london-khaadi-strides-ahead/
 
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I mentioned footbals. Those exporters in Sialkot get my respect. You can't say they are relying on captive markets. Paks are not known to be soccer lovers. Yet those manufacturers got contracts from FIFA. They are the heros in Pakistan. Rest are just parasites relying on captive market rent seeking.
I note that handcrafted items have been the competitive export goods of the Indus Valley throughout much of recorded history.
 
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Shaan today it's in Asda too
Because me and you shop at Asda.

Pakistani version of Monsoon
Or think of H&M. This sector should be dominated by Pakistan. Reason is right from the raw product to end product could all be in Pakistanb. Cotton is grown in Pakistan. That goes through the various processes and final product is on sale in retail store. Pakistan should have competitive edge in this sector.
 
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Because me and you shop at Asda.

Or think of H&M. This sector should be dominated by Pakistan. Reason is right from the raw product to end product could all be in Pakistan -
Don't forget your economics lessons. The principle of comparative advantage applies. That's the reason why England's wool producers exported their goods to the Netherlands for processing rather than make clothes out of wool themselves: every time there was interference with the trade both the Netherlands and England suffered for it. For centuries, England's cabinet met while seated on woolsacks as a reminder.
 
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Don't forget your economics lessons. The principle of comparative advantage applies. That's the reason why England's wool producers exported their goods to the Netherlands for processing rather than make clothes out of wool themselves: every time there was interference with the trade both the Netherlands and England suffered for it. For centuries, England's cabinet met while seated on woolsacks as a reminder.
I don't. And you know what happened? Not too far from where I live became the world's largest wool producer. In fact at one point in time people in Siberia, in Montana, USA to Canada, to Argentina and even Australia were buying woolen products from here. Names like Titus Salt still live on in areas of England with their legacy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titus_Salt
 
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I think indus is talented and intelligent person that should be part of pakistan economy think tank for imran khan/party but that is miracle wishing.
 
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Soloman, I very rarely agree with you and never agree with articles you post here but this is bullseye. Every Pakistani on PDF and beyond needs to read this. I have been saying for long time Pakistan has no real industry or real industrialists. All we have is rent seekers and patronage politics conjoined in a extractive monopoly. The only way this rickety structure has survived is by exporting people [ex-pat remittances] and borrowing money or pawning to geo-politics by getting grants from superpowers. The real economy can be summed as -

  • foreign remittances
  • loans/borrowing
  • grants for geo-political services

@Cybernetics
Two main factors that affect a nation's ability to be industrious:
  • The state
  • Civilian culture
Industrial nations at its outset required a centralized government that created certain conditions for sustained economic development. Industry is capital heavy, and to help them weather volatility, a centralized entity is needed to maintain stability or such large investments will have a hard time seeing returns. To maintain vitality, industries need competition either internally or in export markets. Export is preferred for achieving rapid economic growth because in the international markets no one is going to soften competition for you, and you will be forced to innovate and lower costs. In this process you increase productivity and boost the purchasing power of your nation, stagnation means death.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_model_of_capitalism

Technological growth, is often seeded by military industries and large state institutions/projects. I think this is often underplayed in economic theory but is appreciated in technology circles. Smaller private firms don't have the capital to engage in basic scientific research or to push for ambitious projects, often it is up to the state to provide this.

Rent seeking mentality you mentioned has seeped into the general populous as well and it is dangerous. When CPEC is talked about, there seems to be significant number of members talking about returns on toll fees of foreign transport as an engine of growth and other rent seeking methods. With that kind of thinking it is no surprise that some people think these roads are meant for the benefit of China and not Pakistan but that accusation to most Chinese is very strange due to difference in perspective. I'm not sure if it is reflective of the general population but if yes then this mode of thinking will severely damage long term economic growth. It reflects a lack of confidence in one's nation's ability to produce value with the addition of this support function thus shifting the responsibility of economic impetus upon others. In this case these people are implying that China is the value generator and Pakistan is the landlord which extracts the value. If one wishes for sustained rapid economic growth, rent seeking should be the last thing to be talked about, it doesn't create value by itself. When value is not created you are incentivized to be in an endless competition with the users/customers and not to be in a cooperative relationship because the pie is stagnant. What should be the narrative is how to increase the economic multiplier from the CPEC catalyst, members advocating for that are on the right path IMO.

China's highways have tolls to expedite the return on investment (enabling greater investment) and limit wear&tear due to excessive use by non-economically important activity. Nobody (including the government) gets caught up thinking this is some sort opportunity to earn money from foreign trucks. The roads are a support function within a system of systems. Why do we need good highways? because highways enable rapid transport of people and goods. Why do we need rapid transport of people and goods? because it would speed up economic activity where previously lacking (convenience factor is also economic in nature). Tolls are meant to earn a return to be able to acquire sufficient financing and limit users just enough to enable good level of utilization but low enough to prevent jams, not for extracting as much wealth from the users as possible to earn a hefty income. Roads are not just important for end to end, the bulk of the load is for internal needs. Yes you can drive from Russia to Vietnam using China's new highway system but how many people actually uses the highway for that purpose? Vast majority of the traffic is for shorter domestic transport routes, same will be true for CPEC, value will need to be generated in Pakistan.

The economy is a system, each part doesn't exist in a vacuum. Heavy industries and infrastructure are the foundations. Have a rent seeking foundation and it limits the height you can build your building.

Rent seeking type of thinking will lead to economic issues even after some time of rapid economic growth. This would inflate large asset bubbles, increasing economic inequality. Real industrialists and entrepreneurs provides downward pressure on the power of rent seeking assets and mentality.

Some members have stated that China should give Pakistan $10 billion for free or it's not a good ally. If China does it, a few years later people would have largely forgotten and a deeper hole would be dug because no fundamentals have been changed, more money will be required. China is a developing country, if too much money is given out for free there would be internal backlash as there are too many domestic needs. If China cuts aid at this point then Pakistan would be in a worse position, that is not desired. Money at its fundamental is a trust system for exchanging and preserving value. For this system to work, there must be good judgement of value. If China gives free money on that magnitude, it will only be doing Pakistan damage in the long run. CPEC is not the Marshall plan, CPEC is helping to build and support what didn't exist before while the Marshall plan was largely for reconstruction of largely developed nations.

No country is free of rent seeking but we need to empower the counter balance in order to stay healthy. Easy money never yields good long term results for a system but easy money sounds ever so alluring. Do what is difficult and you will be rewarded, the world operates on value.
 
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Industrial nations at its outset required a centralized government that created certain conditions for sustained economic development.
Not quite. Only protection of property is required, not centralized government. A common set of enforced laws or values is sufficient. For example, Germany began industrializing while it was still largely a collection of city-states.

Rent seeking mentality you mentioned has seeped into the general populous as well and it is dangerous. When CPEC is talked about, there seems to be significant number of members talking about returns on toll fees of foreign transport as an engine of growth and other rent seeking methods. With that kind of thinking it is no surprise that some people think these roads are meant for the benefit of China and not Pakistan but that accusation to most Chinese is very strange due to difference in perspective. I'm not sure if it is reflective of the general population but if yes then this mode of thinking will severely damage long term economic growth. It reflects a lack of confidence in one's nation's ability to produce value with the addition of this support function thus shifting the responsibility of economic impetus upon others...When value is not created you are incentivized to be in an endless competition with the users/customers and not to be in a cooperative relationship because the pie is stagnant
Yes. Have you noticed that when deprived of the rewards of productive employment, rent-seekers often turn to violence - including robbery - to prove their "manliness" instead?

What should be the narrative is how to increase the economic multiplier from the CPEC catalyst, members advocating for that are on the right path IMO.
The conundrum is that productive activity is a distraction of manpower and glory from the conquer-the-world/Pakistan-is-in-danger mentality that Pakistan's rulers have sought to enlarge for decades.

China's highways have tolls to expedite the return on investment..Nobody (including the government) gets caught up thinking this is some sort opportunity to earn money from foreign trucks...Tolls are meant to earn a return to be able to acquire sufficient financing and limit users just enough to enable good level of utilization but low enough to prevent jams, not for extracting as much wealth from the users as possible to earn a hefty income.[/quote]Chinese didn't always think that way. I'm old enough to remember stories from the early 1980s about Chinese peasants digging up newly-paved roads to charge tolls for passage. Doubtless that was quickly suppressed.

Roads are not just important for end to end, the bulk of the load is for internal needs. Yes you can drive from Russia to Vietnam using China's new highway system but how many people actually uses the highway for that purpose? Vast majority of the traffic is for shorter domestic transport routes, same will be true for CPEC, value will need to be generated in Pakistan.
And as near as I can tell there's no plan for doing that. Not even new hotels to cater to Chinese tourists.

Have a rent seeking foundation and it limits the height you can build your building.
The leadership is so used to easy money from the U.S., they discount the value of hard work.

Some members have stated that China should give Pakistan $10 billion for free or it's not a good ally. If China does it, a few years later people would have largely forgotten and a deeper hole would be dug because no fundamentals have been changed, more money will be required.
That is indeed the U.S. experience with Pakistan.

...Money at its fundamental is a trust system for exchanging and preserving value. For this system to work, there must be good judgement of value. If China gives free money on that magnitude, it will only be doing Pakistan damage in the long run.
It depends if that money is for consumption or dividend-paying capital investment.

CPEC is not the Marshall plan, CPEC is helping to build and support what didn't exist before while the Marshall plan was largely for reconstruction of largely developed nations.
Quite right.

Do what is difficult and you will be rewarded.
The exception being that by Communist Chinese standards there is no such thing as intellectual property: whatever you design or invent on paper or computer, however difficult it was for you to create, belongs to the Chinese as much as it belongs to you.
 
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Not quite. Only protection of property is required, not centralized government. A common set of enforced laws or values is sufficient. For example, Germany began industrializing while it was still largely a collection of city-states.
That was early on, I was referring to the more intense stages of industrialization where nations faced immense external competitive forces as well. A common set of enforced laws requires a centralized body, enforced through force or coercion. The UN is a decentralized body and its lacking in ability to enforce shows, it is merely a platform for recommendations. Power to enforce lies in other more centralized institutions like powerful nation states or NATO. Thus under a decentralized body like the UN, enforcement of laws or values is not viable if it counters the interests of powerful states, it can be incentivized but not enforced.

Degrees of centralization is needed beyond certain stages of industrialization and it is compatible with the classical definition of a nation state due to the values element. You need relatively homogeneous values to implement a centralized/common set of enforced laws, else more hard force is needed (that is if your hard force has that reach). Values are guided by interests that are influenced by environment, religion, ethnicity/genetics/race, etc to varying degrees, we can work under the same framework with differences but too much and costs becomes high.

Though Germany didn't become unified until 1871, they were centralized in smaller entities and the larger entity had a common language, culture, and leadership.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Confederation
China's highways have tolls to expedite the return on investment..Nobody (including the government) gets caught up thinking this is some sort opportunity to earn money from foreign trucks...Tolls are meant to earn a return to be able to acquire sufficient financing and limit users just enough to enable good level of utilization but low enough to prevent jams, not for extracting as much wealth from the users as possible to earn a hefty income.Chinese didn't always think that way. I'm old enough to remember stories from the early 1980s about Chinese peasants digging up newly-paved roads to charge tolls for passage. Doubtless that was quickly suppressed.
Those things are background noise, it doesn't affect the macro trends and system at large.

And as near as I can tell there's no plan for doing that. Not even new hotels to cater to Chinese tourists.
I was more referring to Pakistan's domestic traffic from economic activity. Foreign tourists will play a small part of the whole, even if tourism sector becomes substantial. Pakistan's industries will have to make use of the roads for the greatest impact. Foreigners are only catalysts, for sustained economic growth, the domestic population will have to do the bulk of the work.

The exception being that by Communist Chinese standards there is no such thing as intellectual property: whatever you design or invent on paper or computer, however difficult it was for you to create, belongs to the Chinese as much as it belongs to you.
Intellectual property is protected in China, whether its domestic or foreign patentees. Read some of the research, foreign firms in China win over 70% of patent infringement cases, now its around 80%.

"Successful foreign patentees received a median damages award of 100,000 RMB in suits against private Chinese firms, exactly the same amount that private Chinese patentees received when they sued private domestic parties. Interestingly, Chinese patentees received 20 percent less in suits against foreign companies and 60 percent more in suits against state monopolies. Similarly, foreign patentees received a permanent injunction in every case they won, while victorious domestic patentees were denied injunctions 5 to 10 percent of the time."

https://digitalcommons.law.scu.edu/...er=&httpsredir=1&article=1920&context=facpubs

CHINACHART.jpg

https://www.ipstars.com/articles/ar...protect-and-enforce-your-ip-in-china/arhfvhcw

https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/chinas-progress-on-intellectual-property-rights-yes-really/
 
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The conundrum is that productive activity is a distraction of manpower and glory from the conquer-the-world/Pakistan-is-in-danger mentality that Pakistan's rulers have sought to enlarge for decades.
Pakistan is in a tough spot in terms of security and necessitates high military expenditures as a percentage of GDP. The difference between Pakistan and the US for example is the approach.

Americans were able to fund their war efforts using domestic resources though high taxation that was concentrated on the top tax bracket, over 90% tax rate during WW2, 70-90% during the Cold War. Pakistan can do something similar to support its expenditures, instead of borrowing from external lenders. Asking for money when only a small percentage of GDP is being paid as taxes is premature. It is like asking the bank to forgive my mortgage when I only pay 3% of my income on it.
main-qimg-f1a82d54945e6fc45f00b1252fac0682.jpg

I guess if high taxes for the rich were "socialist" the great America of the 50s-60s were pretty socialist compared to today, minus social welfare spending of today.

It is not like Pakistan is overall being tax at high rate relative to its GDP. The tax revenue to GDP is only at 11% compared to Turkey's 25%, China's 20% (also need to add SOE profit/dividend), India's 22%, Ukraine 28%. For Pakistan an increase from 11% to 14% would generate $9.4 billion in extra state revenue, this will cover the $9.3 billion needed for external debt servicing. Pakistan's problems can be solved using resources at home, the question is are people willing to pay that price?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_to_GDP_ratio
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1785582/2-pakistan-pay-9-3b-external-debt-servicing/
 
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