Why MR-SAM and S-400 are Crucial to keep PAF Defensive

[Sheepistanis]

How does that change anything? There is a limit to how much you can train with it and then bring that experience against India.

India's SAM network is a complete IADS. Even if you somehow manage to defeat the S-400's acquisition radar, you can still be attacked with the S-400's missiles through the use of an off-board radar, like the MKI.

Against the S-400 alone, the weakest link is its radars. You take out the radars, the entire SAM system becomes useless. But against India's IADS, the weakest link is the S-400's TEL. Meaning, you have no choice but to take out the TELs before the TEL can fire at you, because with or without its radars, it will fire at you.

And this is not even considering the differences in tactics and the presence of other SAMs.

Forget Pakistan. India's S-400 will be effective against China, and China's S-400 will be effective against India, even though we will end up operating the same system. Even if Vietnam and Indonesia buy the S-400, it will be effective against China.

Let's leave the hypothetical war scenrio's and their perceptual outcomes to the professionals. Expecting a quintessential detterence from S-400 is an improvident concept, all machines have kinks and limitations, fidget with them and they pop out. Pakistan can learn as much about S-400 as there is to be able to counter it effectively. A saturation attack can still render any advanced defense network impotent and there is no getting about it. S-400 is a system to be reckoned with but its not impervious to enemy attacks .

 

[randomradio]

Let's leave the hypothetical war scenrio's and their perceptual outcomes to the professionals. Expecting a quintessential detterence from S-400 is an improvident concept, all machines have kinks and limitations, fidget with them and they pop out. Pakistan can learn as much about S-400 as there is to be able to counter it effectively.

It's a different story if the Chinese will actually allow the PAF to have a look at the S-400. The Russians protect their technology very well.

A saturation attack can still render any advanced defense network impotent and there is no getting about it. S-400 is a system to be reckoned with but its not impervious to enemy attacks .

A saturation attack is practically impossible for the PAF. The IAF's IADS is already too dense without counting the IA's bigger IADS net that will be forward deployed. Read post 6.

The bigger question is whether the PAF can actually gather actionable intelligence from aerial recce assets to perform saturation attacks in the first place.

 

[Signalian]

It's a different story if the Chinese will actually allow the PAF to have a look at the S-400. The Russians protect their technology very well.



A saturation attack is practically impossible for the PAF. The IAF's IADS is already too dense without counting the IA's bigger IADS net that will be forward deployed. Read post 6.

The bigger question is whether the PAF can actually gather actionable intelligence from aerial recce assets to perform saturation attacks in the first place.

Not only a saturation attack but saturation decoys, seducing decoys and detectable decoys are also effective.
With the technology of decoys, like expendable, towed, independent maneuver, passive and active, a lot is possible for PAF.

On top of that there is jamming like self protection jamming, communication link jamming, radar jamming and stand off jamming. PAF's options are open.

I don't know how just knowing the coverage of one system will work out when we are talking about an IADS. The primary radars are completely different for both systems anyway.

And the S-400 will be connected to the IACCS. That would mean the primary early warning for it will be the LRTR, aerostats and AWACS, while acquisition and fire control can also come from the Super Sukhois with CEC. So little to no blind spots there, including escaping to low altitudes.

I would say the PAF will only begin to develop capability against this bubble once Neuron class jets become available in its inventory. Saturation attacks will not be PAF's cup of tea.

Easy, no biggie here, either jam the missile through 3-4 jamming techniques or simplest is use a decoy with higher RCS and waste the missile.

T

So if S400 can make US feel uneasy then PAF will find it extremely difficult to overcome India's S400 threat.

There are many reasons that US feel uneasy about S-400 sale and technology is not any of them. More Funding, politics, sales of own systems and inter connection with Nato system are the reasons.

 

[thinkingcap81]

Not only a saturation attack but saturation decoys, seducing decoys and detectable decoys are also effective.
With the technology of decoys, like expendable, towed, independent maneuver, passive and active, a lot is possible for PAF.

On top of that there is jamming like self protection jamming, communication link jamming, radar jamming and stand off jamming. PAF's options are open.


Easy, no biggie here, either jam the missile through 3-4 jamming techniques or simplest is use a decoy with higher RCS and waste the missile.


There are many reasons that US feel uneasy about S-400 sale and technology is not any of them. More Funding, politics, sales of own systems and inter connection with Nato system are the reasons.

Sir, your points about outwitting S400 and US opposition are well taken. But you are also implying that PAF has adequate countermeasures for S400. I can't see how it is so simple since the Chinese have paid quite a lot to procure it. Russian military technologies are still respected by the Chinese.

 

[Sheepistanis]

It's a different story if the Chinese will actually allow the PAF to have a look at the S-400. The Russians protect their technology very well.



A saturation attack is practically impossible for the PAF. The IAF's IADS is already too dense without counting the IA's bigger IADS net that will be forward deployed. Read post 6.

The bigger question is whether the PAF can actually gather actionable intelligence from aerial recce assets to perform saturation attacks in the first place.

Chinese have been accused of replicating the military tech from all around the world, let there be no doubts that the Russians are an exceptional. More so, If we factor in the contemporary allignment of Russia and Pakistans geopolitical interests, any sort of collaboration between both is plausible.

A saturation attack is within Pakistans existing capabilities and most likely will double along the line. There is no defensive mechanism in the world that can repel it with accuracy as is fictitiously touted for Indian capabilities.

Significantly, if we weigh in the dimunitive flight time between India and Pakistan, it remains to be seen how potent the defensive systems will turn out to be.

Sir, your points about outwitting S400 and US opposition are well taken. But you are also implying that PAF has adequate countermeasures for S400. I can't see how it is so simple since the Chinese have paid quite a lot to procure it. Russian military technologies are still respected by the Chinese.

Having counter measures doesn't mean it's been outclassed, but speaks of an alternative to create a balance, even if the effect is nominal, it matters.

 

[thinkingcap81]

More so, If we factor in the contemporary allignment of Russia and Pakistans geopolitical interests, any sort of collaboration between both is plausible.


Having counter measures doesn't mean it's been outclassed, but speaks of an alternative to create a balance, even if the effect is nominal, it matters.

So basically the confidence that Pakistani members show about effectively countering S400 holds as much water as indian members show about Su-30 MKI blasting Pakistani armed forces.

I also doubt that just because Pakistan and Russia have found some common ground it will translate to worthwhile info about S400; Chinese direct help may be useful though.

 

[kris]

Stand off weapons, terrain hugging delivery systems and suicidal drones with right amount of strategy & element of surprisr . pakistan air force, israeli air force, taiwanese air force and of course the united states air force are more than capable of destroying these shields if they are placed like ppl above suggest 200km near attrition border. Those will be easy picks if they are less than 20 launchers all near the border <200 km.
No one in the right mind will fly an aircraft within s400s range unless they are stealth. Hence this makes s400 and similar assets orime targets even during peace time. As for looking for them on the ground pakistan has every inch of India under settalite and human surveillance. Just like india has pak under monitoring with settalites, they just lack the human resorces on ground hence always a step behind.

S400 in right hands can be a shield of peace. In wrong hands that shield if used as an offensive weapon will call all sorts of wrath upon its user. If its defensive it will bring peace. If offensive it will bring war within few days of its deployment. In turkey, syria, india, China or pakistan. Henxe caution is required.

Pakistan lacks suicidal drones

Let's leave the hypothetical war scenrio's and their perceptual outcomes to the professionals. Expecting a quintessential detterence from S-400 is an improvident concept, all machines have kinks and limitations, fidget with them and they pop out. Pakistan can learn as much about S-400 as there is to be able to counter it effectively. A saturation attack can still render any advanced defense network impotent and there is no getting about it. S-400 is a system to be reckoned with but its not impervious to enemy attacks .

How exactly Pakistan can do a saturation attack??

 

[Sheepistanis]

How exactly Pakistan can do a saturation attack??

What makes you think that Pakistan cannot do that?

 

[randomradio]

Not only a saturation attack but saturation decoys, seducing decoys and detectable decoys are also effective.
With the technology of decoys, like expendable, towed, independent maneuver, passive and active, a lot is possible for PAF.

On top of that there is jamming like self protection jamming, communication link jamming, radar jamming and stand off jamming. PAF's options are open.


Easy, no biggie here, either jam the missile through 3-4 jamming techniques or simplest is use a decoy with higher RCS and waste the missile.

Of course. But all those secondary techniques, jamming and decoys, would be effective in conditions where the enemy does not have enough air defence aircraft present. And jamming and decoys do not threaten the SAM system itself.

The idea behind long range SAMs is to keep slow moving recce aircraft out of range and prevent you from getting actionable intelligence. And the spear of any attack will be fighter aircraft.

 

[randomradio]

More so, If we factor in the contemporary allignment of Russia and Pakistans geopolitical interests, any sort of collaboration between both is plausible.

I wouldn't put my hopes on a Russia-Pak alignment as a counter to India. They will ensure to keep you a generation behind India. Even the Russians do not want a powerful Pakistan. You operate in their backyard after all.

If you want current technology, you will have to develop it yourself.

A saturation attack is within Pakistans existing capabilities and most likely will double along the line. There is no defensive mechanism in the world that can repel it with accuracy as is fictitiously touted for Indian capabilities.

As I pointed out in my previous post, you won't be able to collect actionable intelligence for a saturation attack.

What you really need is a fighter jet that can penetrate the IADS without being detected and then find and bomb the TELs and radars. That's a tall task even for the US with their F-22s.

Even the S-400 has decoys.

You need a lot of time and planning in order to defeat SAMs, and the IAF will do their best not to allow you the time.

Significantly, if we weigh in the dimunitive flight time between India and Pakistan, it remains to be seen how potent the defensive systems will turn out to be.

The shorter the flight time, the more effective is the SAM system (modern systems anyway). It gives less time for the aircraft to prepare countermeasures. So it's a disadvantage for the PAF. In fact PAF will have to operate while being inside the Indian Army's MRSAM IADS, that's a ridiculously unbelievable disadvantage to have.

 

[kris]

I wouldn't put my hopes on a Russia-Pak alignment as a counter to India. They will ensure to keep you a generation behind India. Even the Russians do not want a powerful Pakistan. You operate in their backyard after all.

If you want current technology, you will have to develop it yourself.



As I pointed out in my previous post, you won't be able to collect actionable intelligence for a saturation attack.

What you really need is a fighter jet that can penetrate the IADS without being detected and then find and bomb the TELs and radars. That's a tall task even for the US with their F-22s.

Even the S-400 has decoys.

You need a lot of time and planning in order to defeat SAMs, and the IAF will do their best not to allow you the time.



The shorter the flight time, the more effective is the SAM system (modern systems anyway). It gives less time for the aircraft to prepare countermeasures. So it's a disadvantage for the PAF. In fact PAF will have to operate while being inside the Indian Army's MRSAM IADS, that's a ridiculously unbelievable disadvantage to have.

I don't think it's possible to hide s400 system as such and Pakistan can definitely judge where the possible places of Sam is

What makes you think that Pakistan cannot do that?

Because I doubt amount of Pakistan fighting resources for a saturation attack

 

[BHarwana]

I don't think this MRSAM will help India much in defending its air bases as Pakistan Azerbaijan jointly developed anti-runway munition has more standoff range than the sam.

 

[Signalian]

Of course. But all those secondary techniques, jamming and decoys, would be effective in conditions where the enemy does not have enough air defence aircraft present. And jamming and decoys do not threaten the SAM system itself.

The adversary aircraft can be taken out using AAM's, and also the decoys and jamming is not just for S-400 but can be used against adversary aircraft also.
Jamming and decoys do not threaten SAM system ? Good God ! Please there are airforce experts on PDF who will tell you what can suitably follow after jamming and decoys are used, a small hint : ARM's.
Can you once in a while come up with something worth arguing? Anyone can pull down a manual and copy stuff. here. You have been rambling on in this thread about S-400 not even knowing what you are saying but praising the capability of the system over and over again using general knowledge and here i was thinking i will have some technical discussion !

The idea behind long range SAMs is to keep slow moving recce aircraft out of range and prevent you from getting actionable intelligence. And the spear of any attack will be fighter aircraft.

Intelligence can be acquired through fast movers like fighter aircrafts, using different pods. and long range SAM's have many more functions. Read the manual again.

 

[randomradio]

I don't think it's possible to hide s400 system as such and Pakistan can definitely judge where the possible places of Sam is

"Hiding" is a relative term. You can find out the general location of the SAM, but targeting it is an entirely different story. You need extremely insane amounts of accuracy to target such a small system, it's just a truck after all. So you'd typically need to drop a short range high precision bomb on it.

The fact that the S-400 can pack up and move in just 3 minutes simply compounds the problem further. So you need extremely up-to-date intel if you want to target it.

Plus, you can hide the TELs behind obstructions, like hills, small buildings, large trees etc. You only need the radars exposed after all. Everything else can be hidden away.

You can also use nets and other decoys.

For results, look up Khmeimim Air Base. If you move up north, next to the runway you will notice the TELs on Google Earth. It's very difficult to tell.

Also these SAMs overlap with other sites. So in case your fighter jet has penetrated the S-400 bubble in Amritsar, then your jet may very well targeted from another S-400 site located in Jalandhar.

Kinda like this:

These are for the 40, 120 and 250Km SAMs of the S-400.

Now imagine one more site in Pathankot, and one in Bathinda, and so on. Penetrating the defences of one site doesn't guarantee anything. And this is not even counting the multitudes of other SAMs like QRSAM, SPYDER, Akash, Barak etc, all located in and around the same sites. And then picture another 50+ fighter jets flying at any one time carrying as many as 300+ AAMs.

The realisation that defeating IADS is extremely difficult is why the US has put so much money into stealth.

 

[randomradio]

The adversary aircraft can be taken out using AAM's, and also the decoys and jamming is not just for S-400 but can be used against adversary aircraft also.
Jamming and decoys do not threaten SAM system ? Good God ! Please there are airforce experts on PDF who will tell you what can suitably follow after jamming and decoys are used, a small hint : ARM's.
Can you once in a while come up with something worth arguing? Anyone can pull down a manual and copy stuff. here. You have been rambling on in this thread about S-400 not even knowing what you are saying but praising the capability of the system over and over again using general knowledge and here i was thinking i will have some technical discussion !

*yawn*

ARMs. Right...

And pray tell me what kind of ARMs you have, how many, how many aircraft can you deploy simply for the sake of SEAD/DEAD? So on and so forth. All rhetorical.

Take Desert Storm. The Iraqis were completely unprepared to fight NATO. Their network was more dedicated to taking attacks from smaller forces, their fighter jets did not even put up a decent fight, and their EW capability was practically non-existent. The US still used 2000 HARMs against Iraq's smaller and outdated IADS in 1991 and in conditions of air superiority. Just one unit required nearly 2400 sorties just to fire off 1000 HARMs. Otoh, your entire air effort in 1971 was less than 3000 sorties, and you will be dealing with a massive IADS network that's incomparable to Iraq's.

So this is your idea of an intelligent conversation? You don't even know how many SAM sites are involved and how many SEAD sorties you actually need to perform before you even decimate 10% of the SAMs we are talking about. I bet you don't even know how many aircraft you have that can be dedicated to SEAD.

Do you know active decoys are very effective against ARMs? So decoys work both ways.

Simply using ARM and jamming is useless against the S-400, even other modern upcoming SAMs. And CEC makes it all the more irrelevant. Radar ranges have become so large that they overlap with their neighbouring SAM sites. And the S-400's LRSAMs will be further bolstered by DRDO's new XRSAM.

The problem with this tactic of using jamming and ARMs, jamming is considerably less effective than it used to be. Degrading a 600Km radar to 300Km when you are 100Km away is going to be useless. And SAMs have become so capable that missiles can now shoot down other missiles. So if an ARM is deemed to be dangerous, then it will simply be engaged by a QRSAM. Hell, you can say that in an high intensity environment, the SAM controllers may not even bother using anti-ARM tactics, they will simply dedicate more resources to shoot down the ARMs and the SEAD fighter instead.

PAF won't even get the chance to come close enough to actually use ARMs on the S-400. Most of what PAF uses are short range. MAR-1, LD-10 and CM-103 are all less than 100Km. And the PAF will have to first cross the IA's IADS before engaging the S-400, and the IA's network is ridiculously huge.

And as I have already pointed out, killing the S-400's radar won't particularly diminish its threat. CEC is one of its more advanced features. So some other radar can cue its missiles.

The only way to defeat India's upcoming IADS is by using quality, not quantity. Who knows when that will happen?

Anyway, if the PAF ends up dedicating more of its resources to defeat India's IADS, while the IAF jets are busy bombarding targets of greater relevance in Pakistan, then the IADS has pretty much done its job.

Intelligence can be acquired through fast movers like fighter aircrafts, using different pods.

Of course they can. But the problem you see, fighter pods are very small. So if you really wanna see a truck on the ground and identify it, you're gonna have to fly really, really close to it. It's a different story that by the time you finish your sortie, the truck would have moved. Not to mention, you're gonna have a tough time collecting intel when you have missiles headed towards you.