why majority of Martial and Caucasoid castes converted to Islam ?

[Kabira]

Massali is a muslim chuhra, like mazhabi sikhs.

Nais,lohar etc were people whose caste defined their work like lohar = blacksmith etc, and werent considered untouchables.
The facial features,complexion is more visible among the Panjabi chrisitians,mussalis, dalits who converted during british rule to escape discrimination.

Brahmins in Panjab or sindh however were never dominant perhaps due to culture of the region, much like nepal.

True, christians/massalis stand out more. But likes of marasis, mochi etc also tend to be near them even if more diverse. But then there are other kammi communities who don't look much different in my experience, like kumehars in gujrat for exemple.

PUNJAB NOTES : ‘Kammi’: work unrespected

‘Kammi’ literally means a worker but in Punjab’s socio-historical context the word has wider connotations. It’s a generic term applied to all the traditional producers of specific goods and community service providers without which we could not conceive our social and cultural life till recent times. The word ‘Kammi’ gradually came to be associated with the artisans and artists who were considered to be of low caste or low status in a hierarchy-ridden society which looked at work with disdain. The question is still debated whether it were their low castes that forced the people to adopt these occupations or the occupations themselves which accorded a low status to those who adopted them. The social practice proved it beyond doubt that anybody who had to do anything with physical work or service was considered a lesser human being in a society that put a premium on snobbish idleness and opaque speculation sanctioned by inhuman religious traditions born of historical conditions which forced the victorious Aryans and vanquished Harappa people to evolve a new society marked by ethnicity and caste to the advantage of ascendant forces.

But the Aryan socio-cultural structure was neither fully enforced nor strictly observed in Punjab. So it had never been the bastion of Brahminic Order based on the clear and inviolable distinctions of caste and occupation. The evidence of this can be found in the ancient Indian texts, if the evidence is needed at all. Punjab had been socially mobile and in violation of caste rules.

Professor Malti J Shendge in her book ‘The Civilized Demons’ quotes a horrified Brahmin of ancient time who visited Balhika (one of the ancient words used for Punjabis) in Aratta (one of the ancient names of Punjab): ‘having become Brahmin ones, a Balhika becomes Kashtria, then (he became) Vashia, Shudra and even a barber, having become barber, he again becomes a Brahmin and having become a twice born, he becomes a Dasa. In the same family one becomes Brahmin and the rest followed other professions---Ghandharas, Madrakas and Balhikas (regional and tribal names of Punjabi people) are utterly thoughtless’. The caste system that determined the caste of a person on the basis of his birth and made it obligatory for him to follow his family profession was never fully imbibed by Punjabis as they already had a pluralistic society. So the rigid form of caste system was resisted in Aratta where the individual had freedom to choose or change his profession.

What the Brahmin from Gangetic region saw to his great dismay was the socio-historical reality of Punjab. A venerable Brahmin like him could be the ‘Kammi’ of a Punjabi lord (Rath). Remember the tale of legendry lovers, Mirza and Sahiban? Sahiban, the bold and beautiful daughter of powerful Khewa chief, summons her family retainer, Karmu Brahmin, in her desperation when the day of her marriage is fixed against her will to send a secret message to her lover. With an air of upper class lady and immense persuasive power thus she speaks in the words of poet Hafiz Barkhurdar: ‘Up you Karmu Brahmin, take to your legs and be of some use to me / I shall bestow a piece of gold into your hands / I shall gift you a cow for your milk and a horse for the ride with all the trappings / you shall not cease to receive the largesse as long as I live / if you are truly the Kammi of my household, bring Mirza here forthwith’.

Mullah, the Muslim cleric too was treated like a community ‘Kammi’. In the legend of Heer and Ranjha, Waris Shah exposes his social status. When Ranjha takes refuge in a village mosque, he is grilled by the mullah for his appearance of an infidel and is thrown out. Ranjha in protest plays his flute which attracts the village folks, both men and women, who order the mullah to shut up and let Ranjha stay in the mosque.

The rigidity of caste system though did not weigh as heavily on the minds of Punjabis as it did on the people in the Gangetic region, the caste rules did play a role in the matter of professions and occupations. That is why we have our ‘Kammis’, the people who until recent times stuck to their hereditary occupations. The Kammis mostly are from the so-called non-martial and non-agrarian castes and hence looked down upon by the dominant castes. They are skilled workers, artisans and service providers. The important skilled workers and artisans, who are producers of specific goods, comprise blacksmith, carpenter, weaver, cobbler, and potter. The other segment providing social and cultural services usually includes in it barber, baker, genealogist, minstrel, musician and entertainer. The contribution the Kammis made to the making and functioning of Punjabi society remains woefully underestimated and underappreciated because of the irrational caste prejudice. No farmer could plough his land without the blacksmith and carpenter who supplied the agricultural implements. The people would go naked if the weaver did not struggle with the thread. There would be no family/tribe history if there was no genealogist to pass it on to the coming generation. People would eat from the tree leaves if the potter did not give shape to the clay. Men would have all the hairiness of an animal if the barber did not use his pair of scissors and die unwedded if the matchmaker did not find a match. Imagine Punjab without Kammis: fields full of weeds, homes without décor, births uncelebrated, marriages unsung and deaths unlamented.

— soofi01@hotmail.com

Published in Dawn, July 11th, 2014
https://www.dawn.com/news/1118478

True, christians/massalis stand out more. But likes of marasis, mochi etc also tend to be near them even if more diverse. But then there are other kammi communities who don't look much different in my experience, like kumehars in gujrat for exemple.

PUNJAB NOTES : ‘Kammi’: work unrespected

‘Kammi’ literally means a worker but in Punjab’s socio-historical context the word has wider connotations. It’s a generic term applied to all the traditional producers of specific goods and community service providers without which we could not conceive our social and cultural life till recent times. The word ‘Kammi’ gradually came to be associated with the artisans and artists who were considered to be of low caste or low status in a hierarchy-ridden society which looked at work with disdain. The question is still debated whether it were their low castes that forced the people to adopt these occupations or the occupations themselves which accorded a low status to those who adopted them. The social practice proved it beyond doubt that anybody who had to do anything with physical work or service was considered a lesser human being in a society that put a premium on snobbish idleness and opaque speculation sanctioned by inhuman religious traditions born of historical conditions which forced the victorious Aryans and vanquished Harappa people to evolve a new society marked by ethnicity and caste to the advantage of ascendant forces.

But the Aryan socio-cultural structure was neither fully enforced nor strictly observed in Punjab. So it had never been the bastion of Brahminic Order based on the clear and inviolable distinctions of caste and occupation. The evidence of this can be found in the ancient Indian texts, if the evidence is needed at all. Punjab had been socially mobile and in violation of caste rules.

Professor Malti J Shendge in her book ‘The Civilized Demons’ quotes a horrified Brahmin of ancient time who visited Balhika (one of the ancient words used for Punjabis) in Aratta (one of the ancient names of Punjab): ‘having become Brahmin ones, a Balhika becomes Kashtria, then (he became) Vashia, Shudra and even a barber, having become barber, he again becomes a Brahmin and having become a twice born, he becomes a Dasa. In the same family one becomes Brahmin and the rest followed other professions---Ghandharas, Madrakas and Balhikas (regional and tribal names of Punjabi people) are utterly thoughtless’. The caste system that determined the caste of a person on the basis of his birth and made it obligatory for him to follow his family profession was never fully imbibed by Punjabis as they already had a pluralistic society. So the rigid form of caste system was resisted in Aratta where the individual had freedom to choose or change his profession.

What the Brahmin from Gangetic region saw to his great dismay was the socio-historical reality of Punjab. A venerable Brahmin like him could be the ‘Kammi’ of a Punjabi lord (Rath). Remember the tale of legendry lovers, Mirza and Sahiban? Sahiban, the bold and beautiful daughter of powerful Khewa chief, summons her family retainer, Karmu Brahmin, in her desperation when the day of her marriage is fixed against her will to send a secret message to her lover. With an air of upper class lady and immense persuasive power thus she speaks in the words of poet Hafiz Barkhurdar: ‘Up you Karmu Brahmin, take to your legs and be of some use to me / I shall bestow a piece of gold into your hands / I shall gift you a cow for your milk and a horse for the ride with all the trappings / you shall not cease to receive the largesse as long as I live / if you are truly the Kammi of my household, bring Mirza here forthwith’.

Mullah, the Muslim cleric too was treated like a community ‘Kammi’. In the legend of Heer and Ranjha, Waris Shah exposes his social status. When Ranjha takes refuge in a village mosque, he is grilled by the mullah for his appearance of an infidel and is thrown out. Ranjha in protest plays his flute which attracts the village folks, both men and women, who order the mullah to shut up and let Ranjha stay in the mosque.

The rigidity of caste system though did not weigh as heavily on the minds of Punjabis as it did on the people in the Gangetic region, the caste rules did play a role in the matter of professions and occupations. That is why we have our ‘Kammis’, the people who until recent times stuck to their hereditary occupations. The Kammis mostly are from the so-called non-martial and non-agrarian castes and hence looked down upon by the dominant castes. They are skilled workers, artisans and service providers. The important skilled workers and artisans, who are producers of specific goods, comprise blacksmith, carpenter, weaver, cobbler, and potter. The other segment providing social and cultural services usually includes in it barber, baker, genealogist, minstrel, musician and entertainer. The contribution the Kammis made to the making and functioning of Punjabi society remains woefully underestimated and underappreciated because of the irrational caste prejudice. No farmer could plough his land without the blacksmith and carpenter who supplied the agricultural implements. The people would go naked if the weaver did not struggle with the thread. There would be no family/tribe history if there was no genealogist to pass it on to the coming generation. People would eat from the tree leaves if the potter did not give shape to the clay. Men would have all the hairiness of an animal if the barber did not use his pair of scissors and die unwedded if the matchmaker did not find a match. Imagine Punjab without Kammis: fields full of weeds, homes without décor, births uncelebrated, marriages unsung and deaths unlamented.

— soofi01@hotmail.com

Published in Dawn, July 11th, 2014
https://www.dawn.com/news/1118478

This leftish liberal punjabi like many others deny the racial link with kammi. He quoted Heer but left out the part where Heer father said to Ranjha you don't look like a kammi.

when heer introduces ranjha to her father as kammi

"He is not fit for buffaloes’ work. He seems of such gentle birth that methinks he will consider the buffaloes his own and himself no one’s servant"

Also brahmins simply said not to visit punjab probably because of their social position, not that one could actually become what ever he wanted over night.

 

[xairhossi]

True, christians/massalis stand out more. But likes of marasis, mochi etc also tend to be near them even if more diverse. But then there are other kammi communities who don't look much different in my experience, like kumehars in gujrat for exemple.

PUNJAB NOTES : ‘Kammi’: work unrespected

‘Kammi’ literally means a worker but in Punjab’s socio-historical context the word has wider connotations. It’s a generic term applied to all the traditional producers of specific goods and community service providers without which we could not conceive our social and cultural life till recent times. The word ‘Kammi’ gradually came to be associated with the artisans and artists who were considered to be of low caste or low status in a hierarchy-ridden society which looked at work with disdain. The question is still debated whether it were their low castes that forced the people to adopt these occupations or the occupations themselves which accorded a low status to those who adopted them. The social practice proved it beyond doubt that anybody who had to do anything with physical work or service was considered a lesser human being in a society that put a premium on snobbish idleness and opaque speculation sanctioned by inhuman religious traditions born of historical conditions which forced the victorious Aryans and vanquished Harappa people to evolve a new society marked by ethnicity and caste to the advantage of ascendant forces.

But the Aryan socio-cultural structure was neither fully enforced nor strictly observed in Punjab. So it had never been the bastion of Brahminic Order based on the clear and inviolable distinctions of caste and occupation. The evidence of this can be found in the ancient Indian texts, if the evidence is needed at all. Punjab had been socially mobile and in violation of caste rules.

Professor Malti J Shendge in her book ‘The Civilized Demons’ quotes a horrified Brahmin of ancient time who visited Balhika (one of the ancient words used for Punjabis) in Aratta (one of the ancient names of Punjab): ‘having become Brahmin ones, a Balhika becomes Kashtria, then (he became) Vashia, Shudra and even a barber, having become barber, he again becomes a Brahmin and having become a twice born, he becomes a Dasa. In the same family one becomes Brahmin and the rest followed other professions---Ghandharas, Madrakas and Balhikas (regional and tribal names of Punjabi people) are utterly thoughtless’. The caste system that determined the caste of a person on the basis of his birth and made it obligatory for him to follow his family profession was never fully imbibed by Punjabis as they already had a pluralistic society. So the rigid form of caste system was resisted in Aratta where the individual had freedom to choose or change his profession.

What the Brahmin from Gangetic region saw to his great dismay was the socio-historical reality of Punjab. A venerable Brahmin like him could be the ‘Kammi’ of a Punjabi lord (Rath). Remember the tale of legendry lovers, Mirza and Sahiban? Sahiban, the bold and beautiful daughter of powerful Khewa chief, summons her family retainer, Karmu Brahmin, in her desperation when the day of her marriage is fixed against her will to send a secret message to her lover. With an air of upper class lady and immense persuasive power thus she speaks in the words of poet Hafiz Barkhurdar: ‘Up you Karmu Brahmin, take to your legs and be of some use to me / I shall bestow a piece of gold into your hands / I shall gift you a cow for your milk and a horse for the ride with all the trappings / you shall not cease to receive the largesse as long as I live / if you are truly the Kammi of my household, bring Mirza here forthwith’.

Mullah, the Muslim cleric too was treated like a community ‘Kammi’. In the legend of Heer and Ranjha, Waris Shah exposes his social status. When Ranjha takes refuge in a village mosque, he is grilled by the mullah for his appearance of an infidel and is thrown out. Ranjha in protest plays his flute which attracts the village folks, both men and women, who order the mullah to shut up and let Ranjha stay in the mosque.

The rigidity of caste system though did not weigh as heavily on the minds of Punjabis as it did on the people in the Gangetic region, the caste rules did play a role in the matter of professions and occupations. That is why we have our ‘Kammis’, the people who until recent times stuck to their hereditary occupations. The Kammis mostly are from the so-called non-martial and non-agrarian castes and hence looked down upon by the dominant castes. They are skilled workers, artisans and service providers. The important skilled workers and artisans, who are producers of specific goods, comprise blacksmith, carpenter, weaver, cobbler, and potter. The other segment providing social and cultural services usually includes in it barber, baker, genealogist, minstrel, musician and entertainer. The contribution the Kammis made to the making and functioning of Punjabi society remains woefully underestimated and underappreciated because of the irrational caste prejudice. No farmer could plough his land without the blacksmith and carpenter who supplied the agricultural implements. The people would go naked if the weaver did not struggle with the thread. There would be no family/tribe history if there was no genealogist to pass it on to the coming generation. People would eat from the tree leaves if the potter did not give shape to the clay. Men would have all the hairiness of an animal if the barber did not use his pair of scissors and die unwedded if the matchmaker did not find a match. Imagine Punjab without Kammis: fields full of weeds, homes without décor, births uncelebrated, marriages unsung and deaths unlamented.

— soofi01@hotmail.com

Published in Dawn, July 11th, 2014
https://www.dawn.com/news/1118478



This leftish liberal punjabi like many others deny the racial link with kammi. He quoted Heer but left out the part where Heer father said to Ranjha you don't look like a kammi.

when heer introduces ranjha to her father as kammi

"He is not fit for buffaloes’ work. He seems of such gentle birth that methinks he will consider the buffaloes his own and himself no one’s servant"

Also brahmins simply said not to visit punjab probably because of their social position, not that one could actually become what ever he wanted over night.

They are under represented in genetics tests, more would be needed to see if they differ from other agricultural tribes of Punjab (who have variation within themselves too). However I dont think they will as South Indian shifted as Christians/churas, maybe in between agricultural tribes and Christians.

 

[Kabira]

They are under represented in genetics tests, more would be needed to see if they differ from other agricultural tribes of Punjab (who have variation within themselves too). However I dont think they will as South Indian shifted as Christians/churas, maybe in between agricultural tribes and Christians.

True, they will be in between chuhras and agricultural tribes for most part.

 

[Lotus_stalk]

I know. She's so beautiful. Her children.. .
Later on she wanted her sons to marry European women.

The point is when White or Turk calipha's daughter or cream of your crop like Sonya Jehan, all these superior to you in race are available, who would care for your opinion...

This a small king in India and his white wife...

As India grows and develops quality of its race will become superior. Punjab was at the invasion and migration gateway Khyber pass. But now now things have changed and people can come directly to India bypassing punjab. And India is set to be the second largest economy...

 

[Kabira]

As India grows and develops quality of its race will become superior.

Wut?

 

[Vishvamitra]

Wut?

Inferiority complex he wants more immigrants from white country to purify his race.

 

[Kabira]

Just see the average height stats from Indian and Pakistan Punjab.

As for Pashtuns you can see pictures of US soldiers in Kandahar and Helmand and how big they look compared to Afghan Pashtuns.

Pathans are not known for being tall on average but big boned in south asian context. Height depend on nutrition to some extent but big bones and wide chest are inherited, likely depend on lifestyle over generations etc Because people in chitral, gilgit who are non-pakhtuns are not as big boned as them.

In India only some sikhs castes will be comparable to them. Average malnourished pathan will still look 2 times larger then well fed average Indian even if height is similar.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Pathans are not known for being tall on average but big boned in south asian context. Height depend on nutrition to some extent but big bones and wide chest are inherited, likely depend on lifestyle over generations etc Because people in chitral, gilgit who are non-pakhtuns are not as big boned as them.

In India only some sikhs castes will be comparable to them. Average malnourished pathan will still look 2 times larger then well fed average Indian even if height is similar.

When I was in Pakistan, Pakistani Pathans were about the same size as Punjabis (in terms of height). Afghan immigrants were very short. North Punjabis to me are very tall on average.

As India grows and develops quality of its race will become superior. Punjab was at the invasion and migration gateway Khyber pass. But now now things have changed and people can come directly to India bypassing punjab. And India is set to be the second largest economy...

Bro you have some serious issues and a serious inferiority complex. But this is not surprising coming from an Indian.

 

[Fledgingwings]

These tribes were nominal hindus before converting. Brahmin status in punjab was that of kammi/kamin people. In local level brahmins didn't own any land and had to earn living by doing kammi people work, like cooking in weddings or passing some message to another village relative or person. Basically typical work of kammi in rural punjab before modern world.

Just a little correction mate.Brahmins are the Elite community/Caste actually dominating major dimensions of society like business,politics,industries,showbiiz etc. and the ones you are pointing as kammi are dalats and shoodars.

 

[Jaanbaz]

during my reserch on pakistani regions i came across this pettern.

Majority of converts in Pakistani Eastern Region of Punjab and Sindh are from highly caucosoid and martial castes.

Jatts and Gujjars are the largest caste group(15%+15%), followed by rajputs(10%), then, sheikhs, then Arains(10%) and Brahmins,Mughals,Turks,Persians,Arabs Migrants (40%)


https://joshuaproject.net/countries/PK

Wow, So many Indians are obsessed about race, is it some historical thing or because of bollywood?

 

[Kabira]

Just a little correction mate.Brahmins are the Elite community/Caste actually dominating major dimensions of society like business,politics,industries,showbiiz etc. and the ones you are pointing as kammi are dalats and shoodars.

Mate kammi dominate showbiz and business in Pakistan. You are likely confusing it with hindu caste system.

 

[shas]

Nope bro i am from delhi. And i belog to small caste called brahma khatri. My grand ma is from sindh and my Grand dad is from jalandhar. Due to our mixed heritage i claim both states

Brahma Kshatri
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma_Kshatri

And 90% people from even upper caste shows heavy drividian influence outside punjab. Gujarati,Rajasthani,upit,bihari,marathi brahmins are short, Dark and look like mixbreed people.

You love talking about other caste's looks don't you?

Let's talk about your own.
I don't see what is so special about punjabs. Average punjabis that i have met look something like these men:

Punjabi and Sindhi Brahma Khatri caste members:

Except for few shades lighter skin, they look almost same as typical Desis.

You are so racist you want separate country to avoid mixing with dravidians?? But what will you do about the dravidian mixture that is already present in all punjabis sinces thousands of years.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

This is a stupid thread because the idea of Martial races is stupid. The only truth to that theory is that in some parts of the subcontinent, there was(and still is to some extent) little opportunity for men without land, so young landless men joined the army. Not to mention, most "martial races" were simply people who resisted the British the least. For example, Bengalis and Odias gave the strongest resistance to the British,(such as in 1857) which is why the British never created a Bengali or Odia regiment. Punjabis on the other hand were the people who supported the British the most in suppressing rebellions, which is why they got the most regiments and positions in the army. Same with Gorkhas, who fought for the British in exchange for some degree of independence.

As for the question, there are plenty of "martial races" that never converted to Islam. Marathas, Nairs, Dogras, Punjabi Sikhs, Gorkhas, and most Rajput and Jat tribes never converted to Islam.

On a side note, I do think that some peoples as a whole are more interested in serving than others. For example, I am Gujarati, and Gujaratis seem more interested in running businesses and making money than serving in armed forces, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Mamluk]

You love talking about other caste's looks don't you?

Let's talk about your own.
I don't see what is so special about punjabs. Average punjabis that i have met look something like these men:

Punjabi and Sindhi Brahma Khatri caste members:

Except for few shades lighter skin, they look almost same as typical Desis.

You are so racist you want separate country to avoid mixing with dravidians?? But what will you do about the dravidian mixture that is already present in all punjabis sinces thousands of years.

Punjab has lots of migrants from other parts of India who identify as Punjabis.
Some of these families have mixed with outsiders, you can tell.

 

[Mamluk]

the idea of Martial races is stupid.

I can only partly agree.

The idea in itself is very racist, and part of the divide & conquer policy.

However, can you blame the British for wanting to enlist men with stronger, more robust physique in their colonial army? You would not do the same as a ruler?

IA stationed a large number of Jat soldiers during the Doklam incident - is that not a continuation of similar policy? Reality is some ethnic groups, by evolutionary luck, are physically better adapted to face tough environment and adversaries.