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Why Kalam Represents India, And Aurangzeb Does Not

Do you think renaming Aurangzeb road as APJ Abdul Kalam road, a good decision?

  • Yes

    Votes: 64 67.4%
  • No

    Votes: 21 22.1%
  • Doesn't make any difference. I'm

    Votes: 10 10.5%

  • Total voters
    95
  • Poll closed .
We are polite, lazy and sprinkled with a legacy of institutional inaction throughout our history... this challta hai attitude is going be a big bamboo for our future generations.

A lot of the clarity of thought that is needed will come when we all look at things dispassionately and realize that we have all been one people for a very very long time.

An invader was an invader for all of us. Not just some of us.

An Allahabad or an Aurangabad is not much different from our neighbors naming their missiles Ghori and Ghazni or whatever, in my book.
 
No need for britishers but Muslim invaders sorry brother....

The inescapable irony being that a lot of the early reversions of names that happened were British to native Indian.

If you see the Brits as racial foreigners, then so were the Muslim invaders. Both equally foreign to the land.
 
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No need for britishers but Muslim invaders sorry brother....

I respectfully disagree, The british rule brought India's GDP contribution to the world from 20 to a 2... subjugated and humiliated Indians, sucked the blood dry of our people, and orchestrated worst genocides. I have no, no whatsoever tolerance for british landmarks in India...
 
I respectfully disagree, The british rule brought India's GDP contribution to the world from 20 to a 2... subjugated and humiliated Indians, sucked the blood dry of our people, and orchestrated worst genocides. I have no, no whatsoever tolerance for british landmarks in India...
You too are right but if I have to chose between two evils then.... My vote goes in favour of British as they haven't created human skulls unlike Muslim invaders ...
British also looted the country but with lesser brutality....
Btw the time British reached here India had already lost race of becoming anything relevant to world economy n thanks to Muslim invaders who continuously kept on looting, killing, raping, desecrating our faith centres n etc.... Britishers came to loot whatever left by invaders ....
N my hatreds against Muslims invaders is not because they looted but their extremely inhumane acts against locals....

Will Durant, the famous historian summed it up like this:
"The Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex of order and freedom, culture and peace, can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without or multiplying within."

Koenraad Elst , the german historian writes in "Negation in India"

The Muslim conquests, down to the 16th century, were for the Hindus a pure struggle of life and death. Entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, with hundreds of thousands killed in every campaign, and similar numbers deported as slaves. Every new invader made (often literally) his hills of Hindus skulls. Thus, the conquest of Afghanistan in the year 1000 was followed by the annihilation of the Hindu population; the region is still called the Hindu Kush, i.e. Hindu slaughter. The Bahmani sultans (1347-1480) in central India made it a rule to kill 100,000 captives in a single day, and many more on other occasions. The conquest of the Vijayanagar empire in 1564 left the capital plus large areas of Karnataka depopulated. And so on.

Its not me that says the above but are known figure.....

The inescapable irony being that a lot of the early reversions of names that happened were British to native Indian.

If you see the Brits as racial foreigners, then so were the Muslim invaders. Both equally foreign to the land.
Could be but its a time to correct the deliberate blunders done by Britishers or even by our own ppl....
 
Aurangzeb and Islamic Rule in India
When historians look back at Muslim rule in India, their perspective greatly shapes the way they present historical characters. Some people are seen as great and enlightened leaders, while others are ruthless tyrants. No one is more controversial than the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb Alamgir, who ruled from 1658 to 1707.

By Hindus and Sikhs, he is seen as a cruel and ruthless emperor that restricted freedoms and imposed a religiously intolerant regime on the people. By Muslims he is seen as a devoted and religious-minded just sultan. This article will look past the rhetoric about Aurangzeb to understand him as a Muslim ruler in a Hindu-dominated country


Background and Early Life

It is important when looking at the 49 year reign of Aurangzeb to understand his reign in context. The Mughals took power in India during the reign of Babur in the 1500s. Over 150 years later when Aurangzeb took power, the Mughal Empire was at is pinnacle. It controlled the majority of the Indian subcontinent and was one of the wealthiest (if not the wealthiest outright) empires in the world.

Aurangzeb was thus born into powerful and cosmopolitan state with immense riches in 1618. His father was the legendary Shah Jahan, the builder of the Taj Mahal in Agra. He was afforded the best scholars and teachers to educate him from a young age. As a young boy, he became well-versed in the Quran, the science of Hadith, and other aspects of Islamic sciences. He was known as a very enthusiastic reader. He read and wrote in Arabic, Persian, and Chagatai Turkic, the language of his ancestors. He was also trained in the art of calligraphy. Some of his calligraphic works are still in existence today.

Promotion of Islam
One of Aurangzeb’s main goals was to bring true Islamic governance to the Mughal Empire. Previous emperors, while all Muslim, had not all ruled according to Islamic law. His great grandfather Akbar, for example, regularly went against Islamic beliefs by adopting many non-Islamic religious beliefs and practices in his personal life as well as in his rule of the empire. Aurangzeb’s insistence on Islamic rule was based on his previous education and his strong religious convictions.

Aurangzeb took power before his father, Shah Jahan, had passed away. Despite the respect he had for his father, Aurangzeb vehemently disagreed with many of his fathers actions, considering them to be wasteful and extravagant. An example of his religious mindset was his criticism of the Taj Mahal, which was a tomb built by Shah Jahan for Aurangzeb’s mother, Mumtaz Mahal. Aurangzeb considered it to be against the religious laws of Islam to build a structure over a grave, particularly one that was so ornate and expensive. He declared “the lawfulness of a solid construction over a grave is doubtful, and there can be no doubt about the extravagance involved.” He also made it a point to publicly oppose excessive veneration of the graves of Sufis, as he noted that it was developing into a cult-like practice, away from the beliefs and practices of Islam.

In order to practice Islamic law in the empire correctly, Aurangzeb insisted on compiling Islamic law into a codified book that could be much more easily followed. He thus brought together hundreds of scholars of Islam from all over the Muslim world to organize such laws. The result was a landmark text of fiqh (jurisprudence) in the Hanafi school, known as the Fatawa-e-Alamgiri, meaning “The Religious Decrees of Alamgir”. It was known as the Fatawa al-Hindiya (الفتاوى الهندية) in the rest of the Muslim world and is well-respected as a compendium of Hanafi law.

Using the Fatawa-e-Alamgiri as a guidebook, Aurangzeb sent officials throughout the empire to enact Islamic law and end socially corrupt practices. As such, alcoholism, gambling, and prostitution were combated by the imperial government. Taxes that were not in line with Islamic law were also abolished, a policy that was very popular with the Mughal Empire’s subjects.

To make up for the loss in tax revenue, Aurangzeb adopted a very simple lifestyle and did not live in a lavish manner as his father had. Royal traditions that he considered extravagant were abolished, such as court musicians and festivities on the emperor’s birthday.

Relations With Hindus and Sikhs
While the accomplishments and religious-mindedness of Aurangzeb’s reign is indisputable there are those historians and academics who insist that the lasting legacy of Aurangzeb is intolerance and oppression. He is commonly cited as a temple-destroyer and someone who attempted to eliminate non-Muslims in his empire. For the truth, some more context is necessary.

With regards to his attitudes towards Hindus and Sikhs in general, he was clearly not prejudiced nor discriminatory. Dozens of Hindus worked in his royal court as officials and advisers. More non-Muslims in fact were part of his court than the court of Akbar, who is commonly cited as a the most religiously tolerant Mughal emperor. With Hindus and Sikhs occupying positions in his government and military, clearly Aurangzeb was not simply a religious bigot that refused to acknowledge the contributions of his non-Muslim subjects.

The second issue that comes up in analysis’ of Aurangzeb’s rule is instances of him destroying Hindu and Sikh temples and refusing to allow new ones to be built. That he ordered such actions is a historical fact that cannot be disputed.

Preservation of temples with Islamic religious justification is a long-running tradition in India. The first Muslim army to come to India in 711 under Muhammad bin Qasim promised religious freedom and security of temples to Hindus and Buddhists. The same policy had been followed for hundreds of years before the Mughals. However, Aurangzeb did not disregard the Islamic laws regarding protection of religious minorities. Aurangzeb himself even noted that Islamically, temple desecration was not permitted when in 1659 he wrote, “According to the Shariah [Islamic law], and the exalted creed, it has been established that ancient temples should not be torn down.” 1

So if Aurangzeb did not demolish temples for religious reasons, why did he do it? The answer lies in the political nature of temples in the 1600s.

Hindu and Sikh temples (unlike Muslim mosques) were not just places of worship. They also had political significance. Temples acted as political offices and state property, and the priests that were in charge of them were in the employ of the government. When seeking to get the support of Hindus in a particular area, Mughal emperors (and even Hindu kings in non-Mughal areas) would rely on the priests to rally the local population through the temple. As such, a temple was more than just a religious building, it was also a potentially powerful political tool.

With this understanding of temples and their significance, we can move on to understand Aurangzeb’s destruction of certain temples. No historical records show that he had an indiscriminate policy of temple destruction across India. The temples he chose to destroy were carefully selected and a small fraction of the total Hindu houses of worship in India. This is because when Aurangzeb chose a temple for destruction, it was a politically motivated act, not a religious one.

Seeing the opulence and subsequent financial strain of the Mughals during the reign of Shah Jahan, numerous local governors and priests decided to rebel against Mughal authority during the reign of Aurangzeb. When a rebellion broke out in one part of the empire, the local temple was the natural political entity that rebels could rally against. So long as the rebel leaders and their client temples existed, the threat to the Mughal government existed.

It thus became a policy when fighting rebellions against central authority, that the temple that spawned that rebellion also be destroyed. An example of this was a 1669 rebellion in Banaras led by a political rival, Shivaji, who used the local temple to rally support to his cause. After capturing Shivaji, Aurangzeb destroyed a temple in Banaras that was used as a political recruiting ground against his reign. Another example occurred in 1670 in Mathura when Jats rebelled and killed a local Muslim leader. Again, to end the rebellion Aurangzeb had to destroy the temple that had supported it.

Overall, the policy of desecrating temples was used as a political punishment for disloyal Hindu officials, not as a sign of religious intolerance as some may argue. A further argument that the lack of mosque desecration means he was religiously bigoted also holds no ground, as mosques did not double as political institutions as temples did. While the policy of obliterating a political opponent’s base of operations is one that may have its detractors, the arguments that Aurangzeb’s actions were religiously motivated are clearly baseless. Instead, Aurangzeb was a religiously-minded leader who strove hard to ensure an Islamic character permeated through all his actions as leader. This did not however mean religious intolerance as he followed guidelines for protection of non-Muslims that is mandated by Islamic law.

Lost Islamic History | Aurangzeb and Islamic Rule in India
 
@levina The only problem I have with Indian establishment is, it takes someone to die for getting their rightful place in Indian narrative. Why weren't these names changed when Kalam saab was alive, why did it take for us to do this after his death.

And why now, why wasn't Aurangazeb road or aurangabad renamed after Shivaji right after Independence. After all the concept of modern Secular India, absolutely lies in Purna Swaraj laid by Chatrapati Shivaji Maharaj, the greatest possible hero, the best underdog story that unfolded in our history.

Renaming landmarks that bear the names of scums like Aurangazeb and Murshid Quli Khan (Murshidabad), Akbar's Alhabad (originally Prayag), should have changed either to thir original names or after gem of leaders like Mulana Azad, Patel, Gandhi, Bhagat singh, and Tilak etc, long long time ago...

I think it's better to memorialize somebody posthumous, You will see it's a trait of megalomania to actually get your name on something while that person is still alive imo.. You dont see that in more mature societies
 
I disagree with changing historical names based on how a person appears in today's context.

You cannot compare the present day norms with what prevailed 5 centuries ago.

You are absolutely right. That would be the case if you changed the name of something built by such persons. Not relevant if the people now want to celebrate his memory or not. Aurangzeb road was not a road built by Aurangzeb, no particular reason to go bonkers if people decide that the name is not what they want anymore.
 
@MilSpec sadly the elite, intellectual Indian version of 'secularism' is so highly skewed that it beats the true definition of secularism, if you are a secular in true sense and equally critical about the bigotry within the minority segments, specifically Islam and Christianism, then you will be viewed as a bigot, hence the invention of the word 'sickularism'.
 
doesn't make any difference to me, the only thing Aurangzeb road meant to me was that I'll never be able to afford a house there, and that's not changing with renaming it to Abdul Kalam road :P
 
@MilSpec sadly the elite, intellectual Indian version of 'secularism' is so highly skewed that it beats the true definition of secularism, if you are a secular in true sense and equally critical about the bigotry within the minority segments, specifically Islam and Christianism, then you will be viewed as a bigot, hence the invention of the word 'sickularism'.

So why don't you start with the majority first, instead of running after minorities? After all one could right a couple of books on what the self-righteous majority does. A couple of examples listed below:

1) Sati -Burning a wife alive, when her husband dies
2) Washing your house,and drinking the yellow elixir
3) Human-Animal marriage? Human-Tree marriage
4) Polyandry
5) Kabbala moksham - Breaking coconuts on a dying persons head
6) Narabli - human / child sacrifice
7) Necrophagy
 
Right, stop in conversing in English too,
We would but due to emerging of USA as sole super power English gained International status.
stop using all European invented amenities too;
Then all would should stop our numbering system, decimal, zero, all our study in physics, chemistry, medicine, Yoga, Astronomy etc.

what about destroying Taj Mahal and other Mughal structures through which Bharat earns millions from the tourists?
First we are not Islamist second these structures created by Indian wealth & destroying our old monuments.
why not dig up the railway lines that British laid?
How many country who are the colony of British operate such mammoth railway with efficiency.
We would dig but more than 95% of our current build.
Why not raze to ground the Schools and Hospitals that were erected by British?
Oh before that Indian didn't know about that ? ever heard of Charak, Chanakya, Panini, Nalanda & Taxila University Mr. Mullah ?
s
omebody? Afghans, Mughals and British taught Bhartis how to live with civility otherwise what they were before?
The first 2 you quoted are still barbarians :lol:
Brothers inter-marrying sisters to protect 'rajwad';
You are mistaking with Egyptian Pharaoh Mr. Mullah, in Hinduism even cousin marriage are not allowed which you Pakis produce like rat.
women burnt alive together with deceased husbands;
It was a bad thing which we Ban ourself without anyone involve (Don't give credit to British for the work of Raja Ram Mohan Rai, Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar)
humans divided into horrible caste system and forced to lived under so-called high-caste and good for nothing priests;
Yet we abolished it & prosecute people for this without fear of Blasphemy, what about old & modern Islamic slaveries.
innocent girls forced to work as daasis in temples and 'serving' priests.
Now deed of priests become religious teachings but for your Information its a thing of Past but check your Madrasah, so much horny Mullahs on loose
Bharatis are a bunch of hypocrites irrespective of whether they are Hindutvawadi terrorists or so-called seculars.
Pakis are such bunch of killers who prosecute (by court) a illiterate & mental minority lady in charge of Blasphemy for burning Koran verses.
They cant provide toilets to their people but hell-bent on changing the name of roads.
Pakis can't save their innocent child from the wrath of Hellfire missiles ( despite being nuclear state) but hell bent preaching others.
As if all other problems of Bharat are solved, world's largest slums are gone,
Only reading Koran does not give you current world updated knowledge.
Karachi’s Orangi beats Slumdog Millionaire’s Dharavi in Mumbai as Asia’s largest slum - Telegraph
female feticide is controlled, AIDS epidemic is all but wiped out, dowry -related burnings are stopped...
We already working to end this & have gained significant results.

So why don't you start with the majority first, instead of running after minorities? After all one could right a couple of books on what the self-righteous majority does. A couple of examples listed below:

1) Sati -Burning a wife alive, when her husband dies
You should sue your parents for such low knowledge, this thing we abolished that when your Grand parents are not born.
2) Washing your house,and drinking the yellow elixir
I didn't know what is this ?
3) Human-Animal marriage? Human-Tree marriage
This is superstition which priest do to make money ( is not religious) but it does not mean the girl would be live forever with those animal or tree. Those priest making people fool that if they not do then their future spouse would die early or other bad thing happened. I never seen such thing in my life but seen in newspaper or news.
Recently many state government passed the law to ban this.
4) Polyandry
What are you saying ? In Hindu code bill you can never marry other one before you get divorce from previous one.
People who want to they convert to Islam to do this.
5) Kabbala moksham - Breaking coconuts on a dying persons head
I am north Indian by ancestry & lived in Tamil Nadu (South India) but I never heard of this ritual.
Well if they do so, then what a problem ? Dead body would not complain of pain & last ultimately we have to burn it
6) Narabli - human / child sacrifice
Hinduism never propagate killing that's why most conservative Hindus are vegetarian ? Actually a traditionally Hindus offer Coconut not a animal forget a human. Its a criminal offence which cost you lifetime or death sentence.
7) Necrophagy
You are sure a religion who barred animal killing for food allow this ?
These are a sect called 'Aghori' who are not more than 2000 do, & and rest people avoid them & they do not stay with common people.


Well most of your queries are outdated or criminal offence but what about following
1. Instant Divorce by males even on whatsapp
2. Females treated as sub humans even they have not right on father's property or instant divorce like facility which male have.
3.Male can marry with 4 females without consultation but females can't (everyone should have right to fun)
 
@levina good post! :tup: But can you please edit the poll to make the votes visible?
Its checked but somehow the votes aren't showing...
upload_2015-9-2_14-42-37.png


@waz @Emmie @Irfan Baloch can you guys help me edit the poll question, typos and vote visibility? :(
 

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