Why is Japan building up its Navy?

[ChineseTiger1986]

That's best for ambush ... and hiding after attack

1. US is the best for nuclear sub
2. Germany and Japan is good for AIP sub ...

The easy job for Japan subs to aim to only Chinese targets which is short or medium range.

The harder for China to ready for multi national targets, some is long range targets.

That's why 20-30 subs are enough for Japan, but 100 subs still not enough for China.

So the more AIP subs for Japan, the more dangerous of their ambush. Strategy of them is 12 subs with 12 nuclear SLBM to danger enemy purpose.

The bigger quantity of China subs still lack of endurance for long range operation.
So almost useless for blue ocean strategy ...

I guess in near future, China would sell almost of their old-fashioned subs to Thailand, Pakistan, Bangladesh ...

Too bad the littoral zone is on China's side, so it will be Japan's smaller number of AIP subs got ambushed by a much larger number of China's AIP subs.

 

[atatwolf]

Chinese aggression. Unlike Russia, Japan has capable army to put China back into its box if it tries to pull off a Putin.

 

[Hashshāshīn]

Chinese aggression. Unlike Russia, China has capable army to put China back into its box if it tries to pull off a Putin.

This post makes 0 sense.

 

[PoKeMon]

What is more advanced in their navy?

They don't even have a nuclear sub, no matter how advanced their AIP sub is, it can never match against a modern nuclear sub. PS, they purchased their AIP technology from Sweden.

Kongo and Atago are the monkey versions of Arleigh Burke Flight I/IIA.

The helicopter carrier cannot match against a real aircraft carrier with the fixed-wing aircrafts.

AIP are more than sufficient for defensive role and you dont need aircraft carrier to engage them.

Dont forget, its china who has to take war to Japan and not otherwise.

Chinese aggression. Unlike Russia, China has capable army to put China back into its box if it tries to pull off a Putin.

You need a Ukraine to do a Putin.

 

[BoQ77]

Too bad the littoral zone is on China's side, so it will be Japan's smaller number of AIP subs got ambushed by a much larger number of China's AIP subs.

What's so-called China AIP ? Qing class ? 1 sample testing for unsure 30 days of sea endurance ?

While Type 214 completed with 84 days of sea endurance ?

 

[axisofevil]

Good for Japan. Sadly, it has to reshape its policies based on China's recnet bullying tactics......

 

[BoQ77]

can someone post the details of Japanese navy's ships and air crafts ?

Japan Aircraft Carrier IZumo : 27,000 ton

US LHA-6 46,000 ton ( 20 F35 , 2SH60 )

JP Soryu class 4000 ton, diesel-electric AIP submarine, sea endurance 80 days :
Quantity : 5 , 1 year 1 sub ( 501 : 2009, 505: 2013 )

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

How did you become a thinktank with logic like these? LOL. Beside the advantage of endurance and it's not a small advantage if your task is to escort AC whose operation and range is expand, it is also the speed. You have to understand that the job of submarine is vary depending on what mission it carries out to do. It can be attack, renaissance, and/or escort. If it an attack purpose, then nuclear sub is better equipped with more endurance, bigger to carry more missile, and high propulsion to power faster in operation. This is not a weak capabilities but very important for an attack sub. If it is renaissance mission, then it's debatable which is better. AIP sub is a little quieter but lack the ability to track down and keep up with a nuclear sub and nuclear AC because of the need to resurface eventually and go back to shore to refuel and recharge unlike a nuclear sub that can goes however long depending on the crews appetite. Lastly if the mission is to escort AC, then nuclear sub is more advantageous because AC's main purpose is to operate at sea, faraway from shore and home. If you can afford it, nuclear sub will win hand down.

Japan doesn't have true AC so it doesn't need escorts as such.Also japanese fleet is excellent in ASW which is what their designated role was to be during cold war against soviet subs.They have been practising it for 50 yrs.So Escorting carrier groups by subs whose main role is to engage any lurking enemy subs ahead is not as necessary in japan's case.One because they don't possess a true carrier,2 because they have one of the best ASW fleets.

Nuclear subs may be bigger and stronger but it also noisier,submarines whole survivability is dependant on stealth.In the narrow constricted space of the type we are talking about in a sino-japanese naval war,diesel subs are extremely effective.Because this is not going to happen in the middle of the pacific,but close to shores.A diesel sub will not get into a running match with a nuke sub.It will lie in wait in the path of an advancing enemy force with its batteries off and then ambush.Thats their job.China too understands this very well.Thats why so many diesel subs.It was a chinese diesel sub that surprised the kitty hawk inj 2006.Its diesel subs that constantly sink carriers in usn simulated exercises.
Nucleur subs are needed when u have a huge area of responsibility far away from home waters,need escorts for SSBns and aircraft carriers.Japan doesn't have either of these.

 

[ViXuyen]

How did you become a thinktank with logic like these? LOL. Beside the advantage of endurance and it's not a small advantage if your task is to escort AC whose operation and range is expand, it is also the speed. You have to understand that the job of submarine is vary depending on what mission it carries out to do. It can be attack, renaissance, and/or escort. If it an attack purpose, then nuclear sub is better equipped with more endurance, bigger to carry more missile, and high propulsion to power faster in operation. This is not a weak capabilities but very important for an attack sub. If it is renaissance mission, then it's debatable which is better. AIP sub is a little quieter but lack the ability to track down and keep up with a nuclear sub and nuclear AC because of the need to resurface eventually and go back to shore to refuel and recharge unlike a nuclear sub that can goes however long depending on the crews appetite. Lastly if the mission is to escort AC, then nuclear sub is more advantageous because AC's main purpose is to operate at sea, faraway from shore and home. If you can afford it, nuclear sub will win hand down.

Nuclear powered submarine is louder than diesel electric due to the noice generated from its reactor so there goes your advantage of stealth.

 

[xunzi]

Nuclear powered submarine is louder than diesel electric due to the noice generated from its reactor so there goes your advantage of stealth.

We have both AIPs and SSNs but we will to aim and continue to build more nuclear submarines to escort our AC. Stealth is only important if your mission is renaissance.

japan does not need nuclear subs, they need just enough to cruise in the south china sea, the pacific and diesel subs are quiter.

Talking about the Japanese navy strength is a mute point. The US remains the biggest factor in preventing us winning it. If the US gives us the green light or stays out, Japan is finished.

 

[he-man]

We have both AIPs and SSNs but we will to aim and continue to build more nuclear submarines to escort our AC. Stealth is only important if your mission is renaissance.


Talking about the Japanese navy strength is a mull point. The US remains the biggest factor in preventing us winning it. If the US gives us the green light or stays out, Japan is finished.

Thats true post 2020.

Without usa help japan is finished in a direct war with china.
But usa will be there

 

[BoQ77]

We have both AIPs and SSNs but we will to aim and continue to build more nuclear submarines to escort our AC. Stealth is only important if your mission is renaissance.


Talking about the Japanese navy strength is a mull point. The US remains the biggest factor in preventing us winning it. If the US gives us the green light or stays out, Japan is finished.

As I know both nuclear reactor issue, and AIP issue ... still there ...

If you keep say Yes we have both, what's your good AIP, and good nuclear subs ?
Stealth is always important for submarines ... without that, call them as surface combatants ...

 

[xunzi]

As I know both nuclear reactor issue, and AIP issue ... still there ...

If you keep say Yes we have both, what's your good AIP, and good nuclear subs ?
Stealth is always important for submarines ... without that, call them as surface combatants ...

For AIPs, our Type 041 Yuan class are in active service. For SSNs, type 094 Jin-class are already in active service and Type 096 Tang-class will rival that of the US Virginia class submarine. It will be deploy very soon. The Japanese is not in our radar because they are not a worthy opponent. We seek to compete with the West and USA in building nuclear submarine.

Not true. Stealth, speed, and endurance are all important important factor for submarine operation. SSN \s takes 2 out of 3 area compare to AIPs. Anyhow, nuclear submarine is for a top-dog navy to operate because of the cost and range of operation. We have plenty of AIP submarines in our arsenal, 2 or 3 times more than Japan. We are currently focusing on building more new SSNs to play cat and mouse chase with our American friend. LOL!

 

[BoQ77]

For AIPs, our Type 041 Yuan class are in active service. For SSNs, type 094 Jin-class are already in active service and Type 096 Tang-class will rival that of the US Virginia class submarine. It will be deploy very soon. The Japanese is not in our radar because they are not a worthy opponent. We seek to compete with the West and USA in building nuclear submarine.

Not true. Stealth, speed, and endurance are all important important factor for submarine operation. SSN \s takes 2 out of 3 area compare to AIPs. Anyhow, nuclear submarine is for a top-dog navy to operate because of the cost and range of operation. We have plenty of AIP submarines in our arsenal, 2 or 3 times more than Japan. We are currently focusing on building more new SSNs to play cat and mouse chase with our American friend. LOL!

As I heard Type 041 AIP type unsure ... how about their sea endurance, how many days of continuous submersible? FYI, Kilo class could last for 45 days.
no problem in your SSNs reactor and noise ?

Agree SSN is best endurance, but with sacrifice some of their stealth ...
and as I thought bigger SSN is not good for shallow sea level like East China Sea ... while slow speed smaller subs in AIP mode and highly stealth ability more suitable.

 

[xunzi]

As I heard Type 041 AIP type unsure ... how about their sea endurance, how many days of continuous submersible? FYI, Kilo class could last for 45 days.
no problem in your SSNs reactor and noise ?

Agree SSN is best endurance, but with sacrifice some of their stealth ...
and as I thought bigger SSN is not good for shallow sea level like East China Sea ... while slow speed smaller subs in AIP mode and highly stealth ability more suitable.

LOL. Even the scale down of Type 041 AIP submarine, S20, can submerge more than 45 days.

Here you can check: S20

• Structure: double hulled
• Length: 66 meter
• Beam: 8 meter
• Draft: 8.2 meter
• Surface displacement: 1850 tons
• Submerged displacement: 2300 tons
• Maximum speed: 18 knots
• Cruise speed: 16 knots
• Range: 8000 nm @ 16 kts
• Endurance: 60 days
• Crew: 38 total
• Maximum depth: 300 meters

SSNs reactor noise is to be expected just as any SSNs from the US because of the noise associated with cooling down the reactor. We will used SSNs to escort and as attack submarine and used AIPs for tracking and spying mission. We got both in our arsenal, more AIPs than SSNs but we are building more SSNs for our aircraft carrier. SSN is like a heavy fighter and AIP is the little foot solider . It's a huge whale.