Why is America turning Islamophobic?

[A.P. Richelieu]

So how many "illegal" regimes have western nations installed or supported when it suits them?

Why don't You answer that question since You represents the nation most accused
among the Western Nations.
I am pretty sure that Sweden has not installed or supported countries like Iraq under Saddam,
Libya under Khadaffi or Zimbabwe under Mugabe.
Sweden accepted refugees from Chile after the Junta takeover.
We supported ANC under the Apartheid regime.
Name one illegal regime installed and supported by Sweden.
If You cannot do that, then You should stop with racist comments.

Furthermore define "illegal".

If You do not understand what illegal means, I suggest You google for it.

Many Muslims seems to support any evil if it is Muslim, and opposed to the US.
You seems to be one of them.

 

[Avicenna]

Why don't You answer that question since You represents the nation most accused
among the Western Nations.
I am pretty sure that Sweden has not installed or supported countries like Iraq under Saddam,
Libya under Khadaffi or Zimbabwe under Mugabe.
Sweden accepted refugees from Chile after the Junta takeover.
We supported ANC under the Apartheid regime.
Name one illegal regime installed and supported by Sweden.
If You cannot do that, then You should stop with racist comments.


If You do not understand what illegal means, I suggest You google for it.

Many Muslims seems to support any evil if it is Muslim, and opposed to the US.
You seems to be one of them.

There is no intended racism in any of my posts.

I'm just gonna address the second point for now. i don't support evil period. Whether its commited by the US or Muslims. There are alot of good things the US has done. And alot of bad. Muslims have done alot of good. And alot of bad.

What I do reject are the arguements being posed that Muslims are somehow inherently, more violent, criminal, or you can pick your perjorative term of the day. There is NOTHING inherently bad about Muslims or for that matter Islam. In fact, I make the opposite point, that if one actually follows Islam, that individual will be a BETTER human being. More thoughtful, more compassionate, behave better with their fellow man, as well as be a building block for a more peaceful and secure society.

What I DO fault muslims about is that we pay lip service to our religion. These idiots that carry out acts of violence are the most visible example of course. A complete abomination. Whether, they invoke religion in their acts or not. And infact, you will find no support for the acts committed by these people among almost all muslims. Rather, most victims of these acts are other muslims themselves.

The final point, I wanna make is this. These discussions have taken a me vs. them attitude. Whether its from your side or mine. This is not the way it should be. At the end of the day, muslim, christian, jew, hindu, buddhist, agnostic, athiest, or any other faith or tradition, we are all human beings. We are all trying to navigate life as best we can. Unfortuantely, sometimes we ALL lose sight of this.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

There is no intended racism in any of my posts.

I'm just gonna address the second point for now. i don't support evil period. Whether its commited by the US or Muslims. There are alot of good things the US has done. And alot of bad. Muslims have done alot of good. And alot of bad.

What I do reject are the arguements being posed that Muslims are somehow inherently, more violent, criminal, or you can pick your perjorative term of the day. There is NOTHING inherently bad about Muslims or for that matter Islam. In fact, I make the opposite point, that if one actually follows Islam, that individual will be a BETTER human being. More thoughtful, more compassionate, behave better with their fellow man, as well as be a building block for a more peaceful and secure society.

What I DO fault muslims about is that we pay lip service to our religion. These idiots that carry out acts of violence are the most visible example of course. A complete abomination. Whether, they invoke religion in their acts or not. And infact, you will find no support for the acts committed by these people among almost all muslims. Rather, most victims of these acts are other muslims themselves.

The final point, I wanna make is this. These discussions have taken a me vs. them attitude. Whether its from your side or mine. This is not the way it should be. At the end of the day, muslim, christian, jew, hindu, buddhist, agnostic, athiest, or any other faith or tradition, we are all human beings. We are all trying to navigate life as best we can. Unfortuantely, sometimes we ALL lose sight of this.

When You speak about "Western Countries" does this and that, it is as racists
as saying Muslims are terrorists.

The problem is that even if you are right, and true followers of Islam are better human beeings,
agitators can use the Quran to make people into Monsters.
These Monsters believe they are true Muslims.
That there are interpretations of the Quran by clerics contradicting the message of the
agitators does not stop the agitators from succeeding.

Where there are Muslims, these agitators pop up.
If they are not violent, they can still be a nuiscance by aggressive behaviour
when they want other people to adopt their rules.

I dare You to find anything in the teachings of Jesus that makes people into Monsters.

 

[wiseone2]

As an aside, your a vet. I'm not a vet, but I'm an avid follower of public military information about various nations around the globe. The 2003 campaign against Iraq, based on supposed WMDs. Come on man, many nations have mature chemical and biological weapons programs. Anyone with some iota of knowledge could tell the US justification for war was a LIE. Now we all have to deal with the consequences of this foolish, reckless military action.

I was opposed to 2003 Iraq war. I am still opposed to the war. the thing I find interesting is that most Iraqis are happy at the American invasion. at least the ones I meet in USA.

 

[gambit]

Really? In 2003?

This is where your allusions to your education failed to impress.

Iraq ( under Saddam Hussein ) could not be counted on to behave responsibly, especially when it turned out that Iraq was pursuing nuclear weapons. With nuclear weapons, Iraq could threaten the entire region, not just Kuwait.

There is no intended racism in any of my posts.

I'm just gonna address the second point for now. i don't support evil period. Whether its commited by the US or Muslims. There are alot of good things the US has done. And alot of bad. Muslims have done alot of good. And alot of bad.

That -- the highlighted -- is true. So consider this as a continuation of your argument...

Every society, whether it is a nation-state occupying a parcel of land, or just a community of people with shared values, goes thru evolutionary changes. Currently, the Muslim community is going thru serious theological and political turmoil. The Christians have and they are done with theirs.

Human nature is such that we find it increasingly difficult to relate to things further and further in the past. I can relate to most of my father's life experiences, far less to my grandfathers', and absolutely none to my great-grandfathers'. Likewise, as a veteran, I can at best relate to the Vietnam War era veterans, maybe ten percent to the Korean War era veterans, and none to the WW II era veterans. Am sure you are smart enough to see my point.

What we think we know of the past is ( negatively ) tainted by modern day's interpretations of the past. Archeology and anthropology can only go so far back. The gaps are filled by our biases and romanticism. So until a time machine is invented...

What I am saying is that the CURRENT impression of Muslims by non-Muslims are not colored by whatever good or bad things Muslims may or may not have done in the past. Jews of today cannot relate to how good Muslims of yesterday treated Jews of yesterday, or how terrible the treatment of Christians of yesterday treated the Jews of yesterday. It is academic to me, to you, and to the silent readers out there.

What it means is that if you do not like the negative impressions that non-Muslims have of Muslims TODAY, do not bring up how it was yesterday, because there is no way for us to know that those good days will return. So for modern day's non-Muslims, they will see the Christians in the positive light and the Muslims in the negative. They can relate to nowhere else.

 

[Zabaniyah]

The actions of a few can damn a majority.

Iraq ( under Saddam Hussein ) could not be counted on to behave responsibly, especially when it turned out that Iraq was pursuing nuclear weapons. With nuclear weapons, Iraq could threaten the entire region, not just Kuwait.

One question: Why hadn't the Coalition just finished Saddam off once and for all back in 91? Why drag all the way to 2003 all the way till we are here now?

 

[gambit]

The actions of a few can damn a majority.

I would not go that drastic. But I do see your point if you are a member of the targeted demographic.

At the risk is detracting from the thread, let me use my personal perspective as a Cold War veteran.

Before the collapse of the Soviet Union, we were pretty much, to use the word loosely, 'conditioned' to perceive Russians a certain negative way. The list of Hollywood portrayal is too long to list. But after the collapse and Russian society opened up, our perception changed. We had to no choice. The facts were too overwhelming. Ordinary Russians were just like us...!!!

The more prominent the actions of the few, the more likely it is that those actions will overwhelm whatever normative views exists. Worse if the actors purposely intended those actions to overwhelm. That is the problem the Muslim community currently faces.

One question: Why hadn't the Coalition just finished Saddam off once and for all back in 91? Why drag all the way to 2003 all the way till we are here now?

Because B41 was convinced that removing Saddam Hussein would have too negative consequences in the long run. Of course, in hindsight, we were wrong. We should have removed him then.

 

[Zabaniyah]

I would not go that drastic. But I do see your point if you are a member of the targeted demographic.

At the risk is detracting from the thread, let me use my personal perspective as a Cold War veteran.

Before the collapse of the Soviet Union, we were pretty much, to use the word loosely, 'conditioned' to perceive Russians a certain negative way. The list of Hollywood portrayal is too long to list. But after the collapse and Russian society opened up, our perception changed. We had to no choice. The facts were too overwhelming. Ordinary Russians were just like us...!!!

The more prominent the actions of the few, the more likely it is that those actions will overwhelm whatever normative views exists. Worse if the actors purposely intended those actions to overwhelm. That is the problem the Muslim community currently faces.

I am, but with largely agnostic views.

Generally, negative feedback always travels faster than positive feedback. For positive feedback to beat the negative one, something close to truly heroic, or something huge needs to happen. It all started with 9/11 and kept building up from there till here. Do Muslims have the collective initiative? I would say no. It is a complex scenario, one where there doesn't seem to be much hope in it (particularly the Middle East).

It is a shame really, I always wanted to visit the WTC as a teenager.

Because B41 was convinced that removing Saddam Hussein would have too negative consequences in the long run. Of course, in hindsight, we were wrong. We should have removed him then.

Sigh...

 

[Solomon2]

@Avicenna: don't you think you owe me an apology?

 

[Avicenna]

@Avicenna: don't you think you owe me an apology?

For what?