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Why Indian gov refuses to publish Rakhigarhi excavation's DNA results?

I wish people wouldn't comment when they don't understand, and don't even make the effort to understand. It is sad to see that the only way some members look at this is through the prism of present-day nationalist thinking.
  1. The point made by @AUSTERLITZ was that the IVC was not as geographically coterminous with present-day Pakistan as some shallow theories put together by rank amateurs had it earlier.
  2. This had nothing to do, and continues to have nothing to do with either the Aryan language (not the mythical Aryan race) having originated in India and travelled out, as the revisionists would have it, or with it having come into India, with migrants into India.
  3. The consensus in the academic community, if we leave behind the cacophony of fanboys for a few seconds, is that the IVC extended over much larger portions of north and west India than was supposed, and extends well outside the boundaries of present-day Pakistan; that the breakdown and collapse of that culture was unlikely to have had anything to do with the handful of migrants, not an invasion but an immigration, who brought in the Indo-Aryan language; that some elements of the IVC culture may have drifted, along with the survivors who managed to move away from these conditions of urban and cultural decay, to the Yamuna-Ganges plains in the north, and to the Narmada Valley in the south; and that both present-day Pakistan and present-day north India happen to be cocktails of many original stocks who found their way to these places. Anything besides these austere limits is speculation and fairy-tale.
  4. The amount of racist vulgarity displayed in this handful of posts is nauseating.
 
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I wish people wouldn't comment when they don't understand, and don't even make the effort to understand. It is sad to see that the only way some members look at this is through the prism of present-day nationalist thinking.
  1. The point made by @AUSTERLITZ was that the IVC was not as geographically coterminous with present-day Pakistan as some shallow theories put together by rank amateurs had it earlier.
  2. This had nothing to do, and continues to have nothing to do with either the Aryan language (not the mythical Aryan race) having originated in India and travelled out, as the revisionists would have it, or with it having come into India, with migrants into India.
  3. The consensus in the academic community, if we leave behind the cacophony of fanboys for a few seconds, is that the IVC extended over much larger portions of north and west India than was supposed, and extends well outside the boundaries of present-day Pakistan; that the breakdown and collapse of that culture was unlikely to have had anything to do with the handful of migrants, not an invasion but an immigration, who brought in the Indo-Aryan language; that some elements of the IVC culture may have drifted, along with the survivors who managed to move away from these conditions of urban and cultural decay, to the Yamuna-Ganges plains in the north, and to the Narmada Valley in the south; and that both present-day Pakistan and present-day north India happen to be cocktails of many original stocks who found their way to these places. Anything besides these austere limits is speculation and fairy-tale.
  4. The amount of racist vulgarity displayed in this handful of posts is nauseating.

A sensible and fair post. Good to see you're still going strong here.
 
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  • The consensus in the academic community, if we leave behind the cacophony of fanboys for a few seconds, is that the IVC extended over much larger portions of north and west India than was supposed, and extends well outside the boundaries of present-day Pakistan; that the breakdown and collapse of that culture was unlikely to have had anything to do with the handful of migrants, not an invasion but an immigration, who brought in the Indo-Aryan language; that some elements of the IVC culture may have drifted, along with the survivors who managed to move away from these conditions of urban and cultural decay, to the Yamuna-Ganges plains in the north, and to the Narmada Valley in the south; and that both present-day Pakistan and present-day north India happen to be cocktails of many original stocks who found their way to these places. Anything besides these austere limits is speculation and fairy-tale.
Why would they want to abandon the Indus Valley and traverse a Jungle and a Desert to get the Ganges and the Narmada Valley?

Indians want to claim the IVC by obsessing over the absurd theory that an entire civilization (one of the largest in the world at that time) moved from modern-day Pakistan to modern-day India.

There is no logic to this theory and there is hardly any evidence supporting it.

The "Nile Civilization" has "collapsed" multiple times, why didn't they migrate into Fertile Crescent? All that happened was a breakdown in urban society, followed by a recovery and resumption of urban growth.

We know that after the supposed collapse of IVC, many Kingdoms began to spring up in the Indus Valley. Did they appear out of thin air or were they a fragmented continuation as supported by common sense?

Was the Ganges and Narmada Valley uninhabited or were they too stupid to make a civilization of their own?

@Kaptaan
 
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A sensible and fair post. Good to see you're still going strong here.

Thank you very much. It was an unwilling intervention, and you can see the reasons why in the post immediately following yours. If even an educated man starts to take a position, and then work on the facts to twist, force and distort them to suit his predetermined objectives, it becomes tiresome. I intervened for the sole reason that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the subject. And now I regret it :D.
 
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Why would they want to abandon the Indus Valley and traverse a Jungle and a Desert to get the Ganges and the Narmada Valley?

For the simple reason that some reaches of the culture were running short of water; shortage of water is still the most persuasive reason that has been found for the winding down of that culture around 1300 BC. Many of the rivers running across a still relatively liveable Thar were dried up by the end of that period; it is also probable that the Yamuna swung east to flow within the catchment area of the Ganges around that time.

We have to remember that the Yamuna was one of the major rivers of the region before its shifting course; that would have had a catastrophic effect on the entire culture.

Indians want to claim the IVC by obsessing over the absurd theory that an entire civilization (one of the largest in the world at that time) moved from modern-day Pakistan to modern-day India.

There is no logic to this theory and there is hardly any evidence supporting it.

The "Nile Civilization" has "collapsed" multiple times, why didn't they migrate into Fertile Crescent? All that happened was a breakdown in urban society, followed by a recovery and resumption of urban growth.

There is no question of Indians 'claiming' it; the archaeological remains of a culture hardly resemble a lost suitcase in a busy railway station, for finders to be keepers. Nobody can claim it; nobody knew about it until the archaeological discoveries of the 1920s. It is quite possible, indeed probable, that the people living in the general area are partly descended from the people who built this major culture; it is also true that during the entire period from 1500 BC down to the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, down to the time that the Aga Khan made himself a part of the Indian sub-continent, in fact, migration from the mountains and valleys of the neighbouring uplands continued; nobody in the region can claim to be a pure-blooded descendant of the inhabitants of the IVC.

It might be sensible on your part to pause for a moment and consider how to reconcile the opposing facts of the strong genetic evidence that the people who now inhabit the Indus Valley migrated here, and the evidence that these migrations were well after the probable date of collapse of the IVC. How do you propose to make this jump, first floating in 200 years after the collapse, then jumping back a millennium to found the culture?

The position today is that the nation-state of Pakistan is the proud custodian of a brilliant culture, and should take pride in their stewardship, not imitate the infantile attempts of some foolish people in India to 'claim' authorship of this culture. These 'claims' are unfortunately a sign of lack of application of mind, and need to be avoided by sane and rational people.

We know that after the supposed collapse of IVC, many Kingdoms began to spring up in the Indus Valley. Did they appear out of thin air or were they a fragmented continuation as supported by common sense?

They appeared centuries afterwards. What an amazing argument.

Was the Ganges and Narmada Valley uninhabited or were they too stupid to make a civilization of their own?

They were inhabited just as much as Europe was, or Persia. Culture marched at different paces through the world. There were no parallels to the IVC, one reason for terming them 'unparalleled'.

The efflorescence of urban civilisation in the Ganges and Narmada Valleys is known among historians and archaeologists as the Second Urbanisation of India. This culture picked up seeds of the IVC - pottery is a visible example, but there are others, not so clearly linked - added the linguistic facile domination of the Indo-Aryan language that was just coming into the region, and introduced a combination of theology and state ideology that was studied in very great depth many centuries later, with a multitude of epigraphic evidence, in other parts. Wooden buildings and establishments did not last; later, with the increasing use of stone and clay (terracotta) to simulate woodwork, for instance at Sanchi, there were visible records of this Second Urbanisation. You may have heard of the remains of Pataliputra, the city to which Megasthenes was an ambassador; the vast bulk of the remains show that building in the city, a metropolis that Megasthenes admired, was primarily of wood.

Please avoid condescension in these notes. I am giving willingly of my time and knowledge to answer you, politely, without sarcasm; do bear that in mind.

 
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Interesting posts. Thanks for tagging me and nice to see @Talwar e Pakistan @Sher Shah Awan contributing. And of course indomitable @Joe Shearer from across the Radcliffe Line. I will post more later after I have dug my car out of the snow. I would however like to say that no civilization can possibly be restricted to one country, one space.
 
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Aryans originated in Egypt and then migrated to Persia, Central Asia and India. What is there to debate here?
 
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Thank you very much. It was an unwilling intervention, and you can see the reasons why in the post immediately following yours. If even an educated man starts to take a position, and then work on the facts to twist, force and distort them to suit his predetermined objectives, it becomes tiresome. I intervened for the sole reason that there is a lot of misunderstanding about the subject. And now I regret it :D.

I empathise with you completely, having just abandoned a thread for similar reasons. However, both you and @Talwar e Pakistan make good points and it is easy to follow the line of thought which made you guys reach slightly different views. As long as the debate doesn't degenerate in to petty jingoism and personal insults, it's all good.

As for my personal opinion, and regardless of everything, this is all we have to offer at this point in time, it is indeed foolish to claim only Pakistanis are the sole descendants or inheritors of IVC. It is an undeniable fact that IVC weaves out of the Indus Basin to cover some parts of surrounding countries. I think no one is going to dispute this, I believe the extreme position you see amongst some Pakistanis is a negative reaction to others who seek to deny Pakistanis any link to their motherland.

However, Pakistanis can and do have every right to hold the IVC in high regard and there is no issue if we do call ourselves the inheritors of it. I have met many Egyptians who still call themselves children of the Pharoahs or the Nile, yet there is little left of culture or language amongst many of them that would resemble the Ancient Egyptians. I don't think anyone would dispute them in this point, I see no reason why any Indian, and no I am not referring to yourself, should object to Pakistanis claiming the same.

Population shifts, cultural exchanges, war and trade all cause changes in human populations and it would be foolish to deny them simply out of misplaced sense of ownership. I personally haven't seen any conclusive evidence to prove anything, so I will hold my tongue and wait. But I do believe this thread will continue to be of interest if the boundaries of civil discourse are maintained.
 
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I empathise with you completely, having just abandoned a thread for similar reasons. However, both you and @Talwar e Pakistan make good points and it is easy to follow the line of thought which made you guys reach slightly different views. As long as the debate doesn't degenerate in to petty jingoism and personal insults, it's all good.

As for my personal opinion, and regardless of everything, this is all we have to offer at this point in time, it is indeed foolish to claim only Pakistanis are the sole descendants or inheritors of IVC. It is an undeniable fact that IVC weaves out of the Indus Basin to cover some parts of surrounding countries. I think no one is going to dispute this, I believe the extreme position you see amongst some Pakistanis is a negative reaction to others who seek to deny Pakistanis any link to their motherland.

However, Pakistanis can and do have every right to hold the IVC in high regard and there is no issue if we do call ourselves the inheritors of it. I have met many Egyptians who still call themselves children of the Pharoahs or the Nile, yet there is little left of culture or language amongst many of them that would resemble the Ancient Egyptians. I don't think anyone would dispute them in this point, I see no reason why any Indian, and no I am not referring to yourself, should object to Pakistanis claiming the same.

Population shifts, cultural exchanges, war and trade all cause changes and it would be foolish to deny them simply out of misplaced sense of ownership. I personally haven't seen any conclusive evidence to prove anything, so I will hold my tongue and wait. But I do believe this thread will continue to be of interest if the boundaries of civil discourse are maintained.

I cannot find a single word that I disagree with. Thank you.

@Talwar e Pakistan

No slights intended. It's just that I intervene nowadays if something seems grossly out of order, and I really do not feel like getting into dogfights. If there is some part of what I argued that you find seriously offensive, just say so, and I'll leave this subject strictly alone.

Interesting posts. Thanks for tagging me and nice to see @Talwar e Pakistan @Sher Shah Awan contributing. And of course indomitable @Joe Shearer from across the Radcliffe Line. I will post more later after I have dug my car out of the snow. I would however like to say that no civilization can possibly be restricted to one country, one space.

Very domitable, my dear Sir, very, very domitable.

Thank you, by the way, for saying in one sentence what some of us have taken a full post to say. This is what makes you endearing and keeps getting you invited to all the nice parties - when your car isn't snowed in, that is.
 
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I've been thinking about it and now all make sense. "Caste" system existed since Harappan times which was later exported to gangetic plains. I'll explain how. Caste system is just two races living in same place, inter marrying to some extent over centuries yet maintaining different sub identity which shows in dna test and looks? You see this in American continent etc

Two components Iran-Neolithic and ASI migration pattern.

Neolithic age Zagros mountains,> Balochistan>Sindh>Punjab etc

ASI migration pattern south India>north India>Pakistan etc

Now ancient neolithic Iranian DNA and ASI is very different from each other and we can say that they looked very different racially from each other. What will ancient DNA from Harappan graves will show is one set of people will have higher Neotlithic Iranian like ancestry and other higher south Indian like ancestry. This is obviously even more controversial for nationalist Indians then aryan invasion. As people with higher iran neolithic ancestry are responsible for Harappan civilization.

Now did Harappans migrate to India in large numbers leaving nothing behind? Not really as highest neolithic Iranian ancestry is found in Balochistan>Sindh>punjab and not in gangetic plains or south india. Are mussalis etc in punjab decendents of Harappans? Nope because despite no dilution from aryan invasions they still have less neolithic iranian ancestry then average people of these regions.

This will be confirmed once we finally get ancient dna from region. But we already have ancient dna from Zagros/Iran so we are half way there.
 
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