Why has Pak lost against India every time?

[Neo]

No! They are right!

Pakistanis are tall, white, brave meat eaters.
India is weak, thin dark vegetarians.

Yes yes!

Cut out the crap will ya!

 

[Srirangan]

Cut out the crap will ya!

Oh c'mon! I've heard this a million times. I've even started believing it!

Just kidding! Don't ban me!

 

[blain2]

How does it serve your national interest?....and not forgeting the near mutiny you all had in the shia units after the way things turned out. We can leave out the international isolation that it put your nation in.

Mutiny in shia units...that is a plot usually available on the Internet thanks to Mr. B Raman.....there was no near mutiny or any of the BS that is being mentioned here....there was some hard talking at unit darbars and when the chief visited but that was the extent of it. Anything beyond it is speculation on your part and you know it.

There was more damage than good done. We were not the ones hopping in the end.

Damage was done onboth sides, but such is the cost of leaving a festering issue to linger for the past 6 decades.

Its an obsession towards destruction, and breach of trust of the agreement signed on 17 Dec 72, stating that..
"In Jammu and Kashmir, the Line of Control resulting from cease fire on 17th December, 1971 shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognised position of either side. Neither side shall seek to alter it unilaterally, irrespective of mutual differences and legal interpretations. Both sides undertake to refrain from threat of use of force in violation of this Line."

I would accept that as a breach if the only culprits were our boys....yet ever since the 71 war, the LoC has been breached by both sides to do exactly the opposite of what the agreement called for, I.e. efforts have been made by both sides to alter the LoC to own advantage.

I am not one to give history lessons, but the answer to your query lies in events after the December 1971 during the Delineation of the Line of Control, by teams led by Lt Gen PS Bhagat, PVSM, VC for India and Lt Gen Abdul Hamid Khan S Pk, SQA for Pakistan.

Major areas captured by Pakistan (specific to J&K), was in Chamb, and for India there were major gains in Kargil, Turtok and Poonch sectors. Lt Gen PS Bhagat, recommended to India that the hill regions captured should be swapped for Chamb, Pakistan accepted this proposal, and gains in Kargil, Turtok and Poonch sectors were kept and Chamb given to Pakistan.

Agreement would hold true (to a great extent it does), however due to the inherent problems of having a "LoC" vs. 'IB", you are bound to have differences leading to military action. In addition to that, since both sides have taken advantage of this being a LoC, the less said the better about who has been more honorable about holding the LoC's sanctity.

Keeping denying reality, its your perogative, just as your army did in 1988 in Baltistan, and Zia paid the price. In 1971 the Pakistan nation paid a bigger price. Now how many PAF officers were arrested for mutiny?....50 as per some news reports. How many are shia? Were the NLI made cannon fodder since they were shia? If not how many ethnic NLI troops got decorated, almost each one deserved one for what they were put through.

Shia-sunni divide within the Pakistan Army is your own imagination. Shias and sunnis have gone through a lot worse than Kargil war for the Army to be impacted by sectarian divisions. PAF officers being arrested for mutiny had nothing to do with the shia-sunni divide (it seems you are getting a bit out of your league and venturing into an aspect of Pakistani societal issue which you do not know much about). Contrary to the Indian propaganda, the Kargil operation was undertaken by FCNA...it has NLI units under command and that being the terrain in which the ops were conducted, happened to be the responsibility of the NLI units, later on, other units were inducted in the face of Indian escalation, these were not all Shia units.....one other thing, the "nafri"/manpower in the NLI is not only Baltis. Just like mixed composition in other units, NLI has a significant number of punjabi, Pathan composition. Both Pakistani and Indian armies have learned a lesson from the British (due to what they refer to as the Indian Mutiny). All units have split composition including the NLI ones. Officers leading these units are from all over Pakistan (including many from Sind/Karachi). The problem here is that I have to explain to someone dynamics of Pakistan Army who actually would not know anything about it....its akin to me making a point about some of your units based in the south and venturing some notions that I picked up here and there from others.

You can sit here an venture a claim about a shia-sunni divide....having been so close to the Pakistan Army, I can say without a shadow of doubt that sectarian divide does not exist in our Army. Just by your above post, I can tell that you are quite clueless about these issues and have resorted to mixing apples with oranges.

The loss is soothed by the achievement of the objective. Mission fulfilled.

Fulfilled to what extent? A greater strategic challenge remains.

That was due to poor intelligence, the infilrations were thought to be militants and not regular troops.

Poor appreciation of the situation. Typical "sub accha" at work at play.

Yeah 80, 62 & 323 Bde elements.

Yes those were the elements responsible for the area, however their area of responsibility runs approx. 160 kms. So you can see that positions taken up along the IB were not 5-6.

See above, we thought that they were militants at first. We don't use arty for COIN ops.

Give me some credit...that was not my point...poor appreciation of the issue on hand was the problem.

You are mixing up arty assets of a mountain div that was moved in and has remained there.

Mtn div with that many fld guns?? Nice one!....most of the stuff moved was Fld and Med arty from units based for action in the plains.

Point taken.

Still its an interesting debate.

I agree. If it did not have such an antagonistic tilt, I would have liked to sit down and chat about the two armies in general and not specifically about the damn wars only.

 

[sword9]

I agree. If it did not have such an antagonistic tilt, I would have liked to sit down and chat about the two armies in general and not specifically about the damn wars only.

We are both nationalistic, so that is bound to happen. I took a break in this forum for a while, and when I saw you on line, I contacted you via PM, but had'nt enabled it, so I sent a msg through Neo. I wanted (and still want) assistance in researching aspects of my unit, especially the embarassing aspects in Chamb 1965, that generally remian hidden, and some sterling moments that have gone un-noticed and un-rewarded on our side. I wanted to right some of those wrongs.

Beisdes the debate between has reached a consensus on many issues. There are points that both of have got wrong, and we have corrected each other.

Am I right sir?

Mutiny in shia units...that is a plot usually available on the Internet thanks to Mr. B Raman.....there was no near mutiny or any of the BS that is being mentioned here....there was some hard talking at unit darbars and when the chief visited but that was the extent of it. Anything beyond it is speculation on your part and you know it.

Possibly you could be right.

Shia-sunni divide within the Pakistan Army is your own imagination. Shias and sunnis have gone through a lot worse than Kargil war for the Army to be impacted by sectarian divisions.

I am not saying that it is a very pressing issue, but it simmers.

Contrary to the Indian propaganda, the Kargil operation was undertaken by FCNA...it has NLI units under command and that being the terrain in which the ops were conducted, happened to be the responsibility of the NLI units, later on, other units were inducted in the face of Indian escalation, these were not all Shia units.....

I don't go by popular media reports. I know about Op Badr being an FCNA operation. My point was that in all aspects the NLI was regular, except on paper, although they have been regularised now.

.....one other thing, the "nafri"/manpower in the NLI is not only Baltis. Just like mixed composition in other units, NLI has a significant number of punjabi, Pathan composition.

Was it done after the 1988 Baltistan ops? One would'nt be wrong in assuming that the hi-alti capability of the unit would get diluited if troops from plains make up significant numbers. Like we do not dilute the ethnic capability of specialist units.

Both Pakistani and Indian armies have learned a lesson from the British (due to what they refer to as the Indian Mutiny). All units have split composition including the NLI ones.

Sir, that is a different subject altogether, research articles by Major Amin (ex-Pak army) give an excellent insight on this.
We have many pure class composition units, unlike the changes made at your end.

Mtn div with that many fld guns?? Nice one!....most of the stuff moved was Fld and Med arty from units based for action in the plains.

Those Fd regts were equipped 105mm IFG gun howitzers, the earlier version was a fd gun, but off late these are howitzer versions, due to its calibre they are termed fd regts.
I think that has led to your assuming what a Mtn div was doing with so many fd regts.

 

[blain2]

Sword9,

Absolutely...what I have shared is my opinion and I am not so arrogant as to assume that I know everything that transpired....I'd rather not be discussing this topic at all since it brings out quite a bit of emotions. There are many gaps in my own understanding of what transpired...I am no longer in Pakistan thus my info is actually mostly readings and second-hand accounts now and obviously based on my own experiences when I was in Pakistan.

When I do make it out to Pakistan, I do have discussions about this and many other things with some friends who are in the Army now and many others who have retired.

Eventually we all come back to the conclusion that wars are an utter waste of fine men. Chest thumping by any side hurts especially after you lose so many a fine men and I think I may have responded somewhat harshly to some of your points for which I do apologize. Personally I am not such a hard ***

Beisdes the debate between has reached a consensus on many issues. There are points that both of have got wrong, and we have corrected each other.

Am I right sir?

Absolutely! I will write to the other points in your post later (not from an antagonistic standpoint, rather share with you what my perception is).

 

[EagleEyes]

No! They are right!

Pakistanis are tall, white, brave meat eaters.
India is weak, thin dark vegetarians.

Yes yes!

Its sad that you think like that in 2006.

 

[sword9]

Sword9,

Absolutely...what I have shared is my opinion and I am not so arrogant as to assume that I know everything that transpired....I'd rather not be discussing this topic at all since it brings out quite a bit of emotions. There are many gaps in my own understanding of what transpired...I am no longer in Pakistan thus my info is actually mostly readings and second-hand accounts now and obviously based on my own experiences when I was in Pakistan.

When I do make it out to Pakistan, I do have discussions about this and many other things with some friends who are in the Army now and many others who have retired.

Eventually we all come back to the conclusion that wars are an utter waste of fine men. Chest thumping by any side hurts especially after you lose so many a fine men and I think I may have responded somewhat harshly to some of your points for which I do apologize. Personally I am not such a hard ***

A meeting that goes through this crucible of heated differences to find a common ground, lasts longer. I think we'll be friends for a long time.

If you notice the chest thumping is from the younger civi lot, who have not seen the horrors of war.

Absolutely! I will write to the other points in your post later (not from an antagonistic standpoint, rather share with you what my perception is).

Looking forward to it sir.

 

[aviator]

I think because PA never learns from it's mistakes.

They have learned , thats why they dont fight straight now rather send terrorists

PA has built a delusion of invincibility around itself.
It always overestimates itself & underestimates IA.

Same with Indians . Never under estimate your enemy and never over estimate yourself.

Pakistani population is brainwashed from childhood and from their Pak studies.

Agreed but Indian politicians too always say that India wone all 4 wars against pak etc etc. War of 1947 ended in a cease fire else if india won it then whole kashmir wud have been under india. Also 1965 ended in a ceasefire with India having an upper hand.

 

[EagleEyes]

They have learned , thats why they dont fight straight now rather send terrorists

Foolish. Proxy fighting goes on because both nations now posses nuclear weapons, and replace terrorists with freedom fighters. Your disrespecting them.

 

[aviator]

Foolish. Proxy fighting goes on because both nations now posses nuclear weapons, and replace terrorists with freedom fighters. Your disrespecting them.

Well for you they may be freedom fighters but for every Indian they are bloody terrorists. Whats the point of afghan , pakistani , yemeni and egyptian terrorists fighting in kashmir and killing indian civilians in kashmir and rest of India ? Those bomb blasts in varanasi, delhi, malegaon and mumbai were part of some freedom struggle or to spread terror ?

Btw as far as nukes are concerned, pak did first nuclear experiment in 1998 but terrorism has been on high rise since 1989 i.e when soviet forces left afghanistan and those mujahiddins(arabs+egyptians+pakistani +afghans etc) were free to fight in kashmir.

 

[SMC]

Well for you they may be freedom fighters but for every Indian they are bloody terrorists. Whats the point of afghan , pakistani , yemeni and egyptian terrorists fighting in kashmir and killing indian civilians in kashmir and rest of India ? Those bomb blasts in varanasi, delhi, malegaon and mumbai were part of some freedom struggle or to spread terror ?

Btw as far as nukes are concerned, pak did first nuclear experiment in 1998 but terrorism has been on high rise since 1989 i.e when soviet forces left afghanistan and those mujahiddins(arabs+egyptians+pakistani +afghans etc) were free to fight in kashmir.

Man I swear, I won't be surprised if India starts blaming Pakistan and ISI for a dog getting ran-over by a car in an indian village. Surely if that does happen, the car must have been remote-controlled by ISI!!

Quit your loser mentality. If you can't solve the crime, you conveniently blame Pakistan. There are 100s of sepratist groups within india. I've yet to see any conclusive and real evidence that proves how Pakistan was behind any of those activies.

And on top of that, india has also been involved in terrorism activies in Pakistan - such as Balochistan, our tribal areas, and the city of Karachi as well.

Request to mods and admins: This type of indian propaganda should not be allowed on this forum. I am no admin or mod, but the fact that indians are using a Pakistani forum to spread propaganda should not be allowed. On their own forums, they can do it 24/7.

 

[EagleEyes]

Well for you they may be freedom fighters but for every Indian they are bloody terrorists. Whats the point of afghan , pakistani , yemeni and egyptian terrorists fighting in kashmir and killing indian civilians in kashmir and rest of India ? Those bomb blasts in varanasi, delhi, malegaon and mumbai were part of some freedom struggle or to spread terror ?

You can call them terrorists because they are fighting against you, but i would call them freedom fighters because they are fighting for the peoples freedom. Bomb blasts are done by the third parties and not necessarily by the freedom fighters, but they always get the blame.

Btw as far as nukes are concerned, pak did first nuclear experiment in 1998 but terrorism has been on high rise since 1989 i.e when soviet forces left afghanistan and those mujahiddins(arabs+egyptians+pakistani +afghans etc) were free to fight in kashmir.

They fight for the freedom which Indian Army or its policies can't give to the people.

 

[SMC]

And the way indian army has treated Kashmiri civilians (ones living in Indian-occupied Kashmir) over the last 60 years or so, these kinds of attacks should be expected every now and then. I wonder why the indians are surprised over the attacks.

No matter who does it, if you treat civilians like that continuously for decades, kill thousands of them, take away their rights and etc, and then expect nothing to happen in return..... then well - you are wrong.

 

[kidwaibhai]

yeah the indian army generals should be tried for war crimes for what they have commited agianst the kashmiri people. recently docters without borders released a report that said that the indian army now uses rape as a weopon od war. they use it more than it use more than it is used in africa in places like the congo or darfur that is the mighty indian army

 

[EagleEyes]

yeah the indian army generals should be tried for war crimes for what they have commited agianst the kashmiri people. recently docters without borders released a report that said that the indian army now uses rape as a weopon od war. they use it more than it use more than it is used in africa in places like the congo or darfur that is the mighty indian army

Could you provide me a link?