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Why going ' MAD ' won't work for India ?

The idea that India will survive a nuclear attack is quite hilarious in my view as well. What India exactly will survive? what form? What machinery will be able to hold on and rebuild after a Pakistani strike. This is what Pakistan games on. WE KNOW WE WILL ALL DIE AND BE DESTROYED.. you seem to think that is lost upon us.
But what is lost upon you is that we have worked hard to ensure that when our strikes are done, there is little semblance to be left of India as a nation and state that any "victory" being declared would sound frivolous and idiotic.

This isnt a case of a big guy beating a little guy with punches and coming out on top with a few bruised. Here both have guns and both will shoot for the heart. India will burn alongside us if heaven forbid nuclear war does happen.

Where exactly does this thought pattern of survival because of size and population arise from ? How does this work ? I do not understand the problem in understanding that statehood isn't a simple concept of certain people at a certain place . The resources and economy of an adversary taken care of , with a nuclear exchange is alone in my opinion , to make sure that the state ceases to function as such . Leave the causalities and long term effects of fallout and the aftermath that would make people prefer death .
 
Where exactly does this thought pattern of survival because of size and population arise from ? How does this work ? I do not understand the problem in understanding that statehood isn't a simple concept of certain people at a certain place . The resources and economy of an adversary taken care of , with a nuclear exchange is alone in my opinion , to make sure that the state ceases to function as such . Leave the causalities and long term effects of fallout and the aftermath that would make people prefer death .

Its quite simple. In terms of casualties among the percentile of the population, India will fare far better than Pakistan. Unfortunately that is not what one would count as a victory, it would be nothing more than a pyrrhic victory, most probably worse- which is what @Oscar has been alluding to. That is why I stated that while there will be many more Indians who will survive as opposed to Pakistanis, India as we know it will have died.

India has historically had a higher stake in this precisely because we have no cause for a nuclear war, we have built far more and invested in far more thus we stand to loose far more. We are not a nation burdened with a deep state which has a single point agenda and thus treats the sum of all that is the nation as dispensable in the pursuit of said agenda, we have too much left to achieve and therefore cannot go gambling on this.

The situation has never been so bad, our state never so desperate that we need to adopt nuclear weapons as our shield against everything. Nor is there any force in the region so great (in relative terms) that it can hand us an over-match and thus require a lowering of the nuclear threshold with tools such as TNWs.

Most of the Indian posters cannot see beyond the popularly held views and prescribed dynamics. We don't need to go nuclear or wage a full scale Clausewitz-esque war to solve our security concerns, that requires a far different approach.
 
Nothing to disagree with . It just happens that Islamabad is likely to try a launch-all-at-once ( meaning whatever is available at that time ) to cause unacceptable damage and see if the adversary can be rendered incapable of launching nukes . The targets are most likely to be major cities , industrial hubs , militarily significant areas and resources . Even if the rivers are contaminated , the whole of our populations and economy is done-with . I do not really see the survival and continued existence after a exchange , it wasn't present with the math you did here even , if the data is extrapolated even to 50% of both country's arsenal .

That's the thing, every country in the world would like to launch all their arsenal at once to give maximum punch and attain maximum surprise, but in times war it doesn't happen, that is why multiple redundancies are prepared.

When your enemy see's you assembling and mating hundreds of nukes with their missiles, won't it figure out that you are readying to launch an all out nuclear strike and launch preemptive strike on your nuclear assets. Especially if that enemy has SSBNs deployed of your coast, ready to strike at moments notice.

If Pakistan is at a disadvantage because of inability to deploy the whole arsenal in emergency so is India . I agree with the limited land mass theory and the problems it presents , though the world's 36'th largest country still has enough areas to disperse and look for second strike when the opportunity presents itself . Of course this is all hypothetical .

Well the fact is Indian land mass is almost 4 times bigger than Pakistan's , hence shielding them/ deploying them is so much easier.
On top of it, India is planning to deploy a major chunk of it nukes on submarines, where they are already canisterised , assembled, ready to fire at a moment's notice.

India has 1 SSBN in sea trials, 3 SSBNs under construction each housing 12 nukes. She has already inducted one SSN and is negotiations for the second with the ability to convert it into a SSGN, if the situation demands.

Both our countries have primitive nuclear weapons with sub-kiloton yields - these aren't effective TN warheads yield <50 kT , what other nuclear powers except North Korea have their biggest yields in kT even ? This is what the others have achieved with fission only warheads . Pakistan claims a yield of 18kT with its thermonuclear test , India does 45kT - both the claims are disputed by the independent sources and believed to be much less than claimed . It is highly unlikely that either of the side can perform an effective decapitation strike and prevent the adversary to launch nuclear weapons . There's a reason why I said that both countries are almost matched non conventionally . There's a reason why this article calls MAD as not an option for India .

Pakistan never tested or even claims to have tested a thermonuclear device, maximum it is tested was boosted fission device.

India's Shakti 1 test was a thermonuclear device 45 Kt yield.Basically exactly same design of weapon(which was tested in Shakti 1 can give a yield of up-to 200 Kt.. the yield of the weapon was intentionally kept under 50 Kt to avoid damaging the nearby villages .
The fact is a thermonuclear reaction, once achieved in a Teller Ulam can be stepped up to achieve what ever yields.

A country's ability carry out a decapitation strike on an adversary is dependent it ability to gather intel on enemy nukes and launch vehicle and on the adversaries ability to disperse and hide its nuclear weapons.

The above task becomes almost impossible if the enemy arsenal is hiding under the seas.
Land based assets much more vulnerable to enemy's decapitating, conventional and nuclear strike.. Fixed Silos are very vulnerable to pin point nuclear strikes.



The Shaheen IA is widely believed to be testbed for upcoming technologies , the increased ranges and speed weren't of much importance , as was the Post Separation Altitude system - automated refueling and limited stealth features . Maybe , not ground breaking but still the first step in developing and testing counter-measures . Almost all antimissile system - even those deployed by the U.S aren't believed to intercept more than 50% of incoming hostiles .

Post separation altitude correction system is there in all the Shaheen missiles, it is basically there to give better accuracy.
Claims that PSAC can help evade anti missile are pure hokum. As PSAC helps the warhead(after separation) keep its trajectory..when it starts deviating off course( to achieve better accuracy)...thereby making its path more linear and easier to intercept.
Automated refueling has again no bearing its anti missile evading ability.

This 50% figure might be true for single anti missile battery trying to intercept a host of incoming missiles. Thats is why most of the countries use multi layered missile defence
eg US has three layers of missile defence.

Strategic missile defense- NMD(to intercept missiles in boost or mid course) followed by Theater missile defense THAAD(to intercept them in terminal phase further followed by Tactical missile defense(Patriot).

India is initially planning to deploy dual layered anti missile sys , with a interception probability of 99.9% against missile of 2500 Km range. Upper layer will be PDV(similar to THAAD) and lower layer will be AAD( similar to Patriot)

Another layer consisting of AD-1 and AD-2 (having higher range/speed for midcourse interception against ICBMs will be added at a later stage.
 
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Hi ,

Here is the opinion from the person who has seen it more closely than all of us .

Here from the horses's mouth itself !!!

Mr Ashghar khan - Ex Air Chief of Pakistan ...




Since Pakistan is quite small in size, so 1 or 2 nukes will completely demolish it, but won't destroy India - Asghar Khan (first native chief of the Pakistani Air Force).
 
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@Dillinger , @Secur ,@Muradk , @ares ,@mafiya ,@DRAY ,@gslv mk3 ,@manojb
@Oscar , @skysthelimit ,@Cherokee, @sreekumar ,@lightoftruth , @AUSTERLITZ , @Aeronaut , @Chinese-Dragon , @NKVD, @Umair Nawaz , @The Deterrent , @Tshering22 , @manojb


Hi ,

Here is the opinion from the person who has seen it more closely than all of us .

Here from the horses's mouth itself !!!

Mr Ashghar khan - Ex Air Chief of Pakistan ...




Since Pakistan is quite small in size, so 1 or 2 nukes will completely demolish it, but won't destroy India - Asghar Khan (first native chief of the Pakistani Air Force).

Asghar Khan is a veteran, respected elder, a little known fact (at least for a lot of the Pakistani posters here, well Indian too) is that his "overhaul" of the PAF led to its competent performance in 65 and beyond.

But, with all due respect, what he's stating here is an oversimplification, one or two nukes will probably economically cripple Pakistan (it would require more warheads to do the same to India, that's true). Regardless it is still does not dispute the fact that the retaliatory firing from either side will still leave India as a nation horribly maimed/disfigured and perhaps even mortally wounded.


There are of course more details which populate the current scenario, I will attempt to enumerate them when I have some time at hand.

@Dillinger , @Secur ,@Muradk , @ares ,@mafiya ,@DRAY ,@gslv mk3 ,@manojb
@Oscar , @skysthelimit ,@Cherokee, @sreekumar ,@lightoftruth , @AUSTERLITZ , @Aeronaut , @Chinese-Dragon , @NKVD, @Umair Nawaz , @The Deterrent , @Tshering22 , @manojb



We are too WEAK to fight India - Accepts Pakistan


And here is Pakistan Defence Minister -Chaudhary Ahmed Mukhtar accepting that Pakistan can't win war against India in interview to BBC Urdu .



AGAIN! Its no secret that conventionally Pakistan has no hope of matching India, which is precisely why we see so many Pakistani posters almost deifying their nations's nuclear arsenal.

Their MoD is correct in stating that in any conventional war they would have to face an opponent with fire superiority, but that's all he's saying.

Let me add my own opinion though, I'd call their bluff and conduct strikes on terrorist camps in Pakistan held Kashmir, only on the camps, with standoff munitions and covert raids, without attempting to breach their ADGE in any substantial manner. Good odds that the Pakistani executive and uniforms will not risk mutual destruction for the sake of jihadis. But then I like my odds, our executive might not.
 
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Asghar Khan is a veteran, respected elder, a little known fact (at least for a lot of the Pakistani posters here, well Indian too) is that his "overhaul" of the PAF led to its competent performance in 65 and beyond.

But, with all due respect, what he's stating here is an oversimplification, one or two nukes will probably economically cripple Pakistan (it would require more warheads to do the same to India, that's true). Regardless it is still does not dispute the fact that the retaliatory firing from either side will still leave India as a nation horribly maimed/disfigured and perhaps even mortally wounded.


There are of course more details which populate the current scenario, I will attempt to enumerate them when I have some time at hand.

Probably you know more than Ex Chief Marshal of Pakistan ....

There is no doubt that he may have oversimplified the fact ...There is also no doubt that Nuclear war will leave India severly crippled .


But it is also undeniable fact that Nuclear war will wipe out Pakistan from face of this earth ..and India will survive .

Given the great land mass , population , economy - India will recover from such catastrophe much faster .

You may be trying to please your Pakistani friends ....

I have nothing against anybody here

and I am no way advocating Nuclear war with Pakistan just because it will destroy Pakistan and India will survive such war .

I am just saying that it is in the greatest interest of Pakistan to avoid nuclear war because even at cost of its own existence it will not be able to destroy India ....


The true assessment of possible outcome of Indo-Pak nuclear war must be taken into account .

There is a risk that Pakistanis may be lead to believe contrary .

Fortunately there exist wise people within Pakistani establishment like Mr Ashghar Khan ...who can spell out the facts as they are .

AGAIN! Its no secret that conventionally Pakistan has no hope of matching India, which is precisely why we see so many Pakistani posters almost deifying their nations's nuclear arsenal.

Their MoD is correct in stating that in any conventional war they would have to face an opponent with fire superiority, but that's all he's saying.

Let me add my own opinion though, I'd call their bluff and conduct strikes on terrorist camps in Pakistan held Kashmir, only on the camps, with standoff munitions and covert raids, without attempting to breach their ADGE in any substantial manner. Good odds that the Pakistani executive and uniforms will not risk mutual destruction for the sake of jihadis. But then I like my odds, our executive might not.

The said interview was given in August 2013 ...do you think Pakistan Defense minister will make such ludicrous statement without taking into account the Nuclear weapons option while commenting that Pakistan can't fight against India .

Pakistan Defense minister has probably more holistic view of the situation than you , me or anyone else here .


which defense minister will make statement like that without taking into account all its strengths and weaknesses ??? that too for international audience ....???
 
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Probably you know more than Ex Chief Marshal of Pakistan ....

There is no doubt that he may have oversimplified the fact ...There is also no doubt that Nuclear war will leave India severly crippled .


But it is also undeniable fact that Nuclear war will wipe out Pakistan from face of this earth ..and India will survive .

Given the great land mass , population , economy - India will recover from such catastrophe much faster .

You may be trying to please your Pakistani friends ....

I have nothing against anybody here

and I am no way advocating Nuclear war with Pakistan just because it will destroy Pakistan and India will survive such war .

I am just saying that it is in the greatest interest of Pakistan to avoid nuclear war because even at cost of its own existence it will not be able to destroy India ....


The true assessment of possible outcome of Indo-Pak nuclear war must be taken into account .

There is a risk that Pakistanis may be lead to believe contrary .

Fortunately there exist wise people within Pakistani establishment like Mr Ashghar Khan ...who can spell out the simple truth .

Again, not even posters such as Oscar or Secur have disputed that Indian will come off "better" than Pakistan, only in this case the "better" will be akin to comparing a mortally wounded animal to a dead one. India as a nation cannot operate just on its left over population, which btw again the posters in question have conceded upon (the leftover population being actually leftover), but everything that makes a nation- its institutions, infrastructure, its economic centers will be so vastly diminished that any semblance of the India we know will have disappeared. Now as far as we are concerned we cannot count that as a victory.
 
Again, not even posters such as Oscar or Secur have disputed that Indian will come off "better" than Pakistan, only in this case the "better" will be akin to comparing a mortally wounded animal to a dead one. India as a nation cannot operate just on its left over population, which btw again the posters in question have conceded upon (the leftover population being actually leftover), but everything that makes a nation- its institutions, infrastructure, its economic centers will be so vastly diminished that any semblance of the India we know will have disappeared. Now as far as we are concerned we cannot count that as a victory.

That's your opinion.....
and I am not obliged to accept your assessment .

I do not think even if Pakistan manages to use half of its arsenal against India ...it will create catastrophe as you are predicting .

Country like Japan survived 2 nuclear attacks ...and country like India can't survive 50 nuclear attacks ???

The vast land mass that India possess besides its young population , economy and vast number of overseas Indians will be able to counter any such catastrophic scenario that may present .

Your contention that " India that we know will die " is absolutely laughable ....

Did Japan die after WWII...

If at all it has resurged in different way ...

Change is the only constant and evolution is way of life .

India has witnessed far greater tragedies in the past ...and have overcome it ...


who told you that Indians are justifying nuclear war ?

India has stated policy of NFU .

and India which has always conducted itself as Peaceful country ..will never attack anyone with nukes first ...

where is the question of Indian's asking for Nuclear war .


I am just trying to prove the point that Pakistani's should not led to believe that they will take India down along with them ...

such fatalistic mentality is quite prevalent ....and may be self assuring ...that at least we will destroy India even as we get destroyed ....

I hope you will understand what I am trying to say ..since very beginning .....


please go through my posts since very beginning ...as to what I am trying to say all along !
 
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That's your opinion.....
and I am not obliged to accept your assessment .

I do not think even if Pakistan manages to use half of its arsenal against India ...it will create catastrophe as you are predicting .

Country like Japan survived 2 nuclear attacks ...and country like India can't survive 50 nuclear attacks ???

The vast land mass that India possess besides its young population , economy and vast number of overseas Indians will be able to counter any such catastrophic scenario that may present .

Your contention that " India that we know will die " is absolutely laughable ....

Did Japan die after WWII...

If at all it has resurged in different way ...

who told you that Indians are justifying nuclear war ?

India has stated policy of NFU .

and India which has always conducted itself as Peaceful country ..will never attack anyone with nukes first ...

where is the question of Indian's asking for Nuclear war .


I am just trying to prove the point that Pakistani's should not led to believe that they will take India down along with them ...

such fatalistic mentality is quite prevalent ....and may be self assuring ...that at least we will destroy India even as we get destroyed ....

I hope you will understand what I am trying to say ..since very beginning .....

Does my post in any manner contend that we Indians are "asking" for a nuclear war? Or that we wish to start one? In fact my first post on this page asserts exactly the opposite, that given our conventional superiority and the fact that in actual terms we have no ambition for annexing any territory held by Pakistan, we are in fact the least likely to ever start a nuclear exchange by firing off said warheads in a first strike.

The problem is that you seem to be imagining it as a split second and ad hoc/arbitrary decision wherein both nations will suddenly race towards assembling their weapons and then getting off a shot, the build up to such an exchange will not occur that way. The escalation we saw during Kargil points just to that.
 
Does my post in any manner contend that we Indians are "asking" for a nuclear war? Or that we wish to start one? In fact my first post on this page asserts exactly the opposite, that given our conventional superiority and the fact that in actual terms we have no ambition for annexing any territory held by Pakistan, we are in fact the least likely to ever start a nuclear exchange by firing off said warheads in a first strike.

The problem is that you seem to be imagining it as a split second and ad hoc/arbitrary decision wherein both nations will suddenly race towards assembling their weapons and then getting off a shot, the build up to such an exchange will not occur that way. The escalation we saw during Kargil points just to that.

Yes .

Last lines in your post No. # 122 suggest exactly that

" Most of the Indian posters cannot see beyond the popularly held views and prescribed dynamics. We don't need to go nuclear or wage a full scale Clausewitz-esque war to solve our security concerns, that requires a far different approach. "


what else did you mean by these lines ???
 
Yes .

Last lines in your post No. # 122 suggest exactly that

" Most of the Indian posters cannot see beyond the popularly held views and prescribed dynamics. We don't need to go nuclear or wage a full scale Clausewitz-esque war to solve our security concerns, that requires a far different approach. "


what else did you mean by these lines ???

To explain that not being able to "win" in a MAD scenario does not mean that we cannot settle our security concerns under the nuclear umbrella.
 
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To explain that not being able to "win" in MAD scenario does not mean that we cannot settle our security concerns under the nuclear umbrella.

and who told you that myself or any other Indians here suggested that we have to go nuclear to solve our security concerns ???


Please refer to your own statement

" We don't need to go nuclear or wage a full scale Clausewitz-esque war to solve our security concerns, that requires a far different approach "

Didn't you imply that some of the Indians may be thinking that going nuclear is way to solve our security concerns ....???
 
and who told you that myself or any other Indians here suggested that we have to go nuclear to solve our security concerns ???


Please refer to your own statement

" We don't need to go nuclear or wage a full scale Clausewitz-esque war to solve our security concerns, that requires a far different approach "

Didn't you imply that some of the Indians may be thinking that going nuclear is way to solve our security concerns ....???

The inference should be quite simple, if people hold it to be true that being unable to win under a MAD scenario is a debilitating factor then yes the said people are alluding to the notion (held by them) that only when we find ourselves being capable of prevailing under MAD (not actually engage in it, but rather just have the capability to engage in it and prevail) will we have the cards to press our advantage and act in a manner so as to strike against the sub-conventional assets of Pakistan. Stating that we need to be strong enough to prevail under MAD ( a misconception) so that we can deter a Pakistani first strike (from ever taking place) in retaliation to surgical strikes (for example) from our side is not the same as getting hot about a nuclear exchange.

I am asserting, that to the contrary of the above, we can under the present equation still degrade Pakistan's sub-conventional arm and impose upon them a high quantum of civilian casualties by paying them back in kind, thereby leveling the field in terms of asymmetrical capabilities. The context should have been self evident, the only possible threat that Pakistan will EVER pose to us is a sub-conventional and asymmetrical one, which they have executed in the past under the nuclear umbrella.
 
Its quite simple. In terms of casualties among the percentile of the population, India will fare far better than Pakistan. Unfortunately that is not what one would count as a victory, it would be nothing more than a pyrrhic victory, most probably worse- which is what @Oscar has been alluding to. That is why I stated that while there will be many more Indians who will survive as opposed to Pakistanis, India as we know it will have died.

India has historically had a higher stake in this precisely because we have no cause for a nuclear war, we have built far more and invested in far more thus we stand to loose far more. We are not a nation burdened with a deep state which has a single point agenda and thus treats the sum of all that is the nation as dispensable in the pursuit of said agenda, we have too much left to achieve and therefore cannot go gambling on this.

The situation has never been so bad, our state never so desperate that we need to adopt nuclear weapons as our shield against everything. Nor is there any force in the region so great (in relative terms) that it can hand us an over-match and thus require a lowering of the nuclear threshold with tools such as TNWs.

Most of the Indian posters cannot see beyond the popularly held views and prescribed dynamics. We don't need to go nuclear or wage a full scale Clausewitz-esque war to solve our security concerns, that requires a far different approach.

I cant completely agree with that.MAD is relevent when adversaries are equal in economy ,weapons technology and geographical size and population.Until now Pakistan cant demonstrate such a power like Russia did against US.I dont know about future .May Pakistan can inflict damage .But that is only happen when they test and validated their long range missiles thoroughly.
They dont do that till now.While India have developed or near developed missile systems of different versions and purposes.
A war with Pakistan will indeed cause damage to India and it will affect in every front.And that is why we investing so much in AAD ,ABM system.
US is the front runner in military technology.Yet when they try to kill OBL in 1999 by the ripple firing of advanced Tomohawk ,I think about 81 missiles .They lost about 8 - 10 missiles due to malfunction.That is US.
Now consider Pakistan in that case.How can we arrived in a conclusion that all weapons fired by Pakistan will destroy their target? I dont think so.
For that much mobilization you need a powerful economy and technology base.If they start their economic reforms they can do that against in future.
We also know that.That is why GoI give special importance to advanced high tech system.whether it is success or failure.
 

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