Why Does the Muslim World Lag in Science?

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Its 0802 here.

Good morning Road runner.

Here are some interesting facts about who were totally ‘devoted’ to the British Raj.

During World War I, Punjab alone accounted for 66 per cent cavalry,87 per cent artillery and 45 per cent infantry. It was obvious that Punjab became historically military sensitive and its administration was essential committed to the welfare of he soldiery……

The extent of the military’s influence can be well judged by the fact that in the first two decades of the 2oth Century, the Punjab government granted half a million acre as rewards to the soldiers.

Books/ articles for reference are:
Ayesha Jalal, The state of Martial Rule, Cambridge
Tan Tai Yong, Punjab and the Making of Pakistan , South Asia vol xviii, 1995
Swarna Aiyer, August Anarchy. Partition Massacres in Punjab 1947, South Asia vol xvii
Amelie Blom: The Multivocal State:The Policy of Pakistan in Kashmir, Insitut d’Erudes Paris
**************

May I therefore request you to restrain your loose statements. Also back up with links and reference.

 

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner,

Facts are not your strong point.

The literacy was poor in Pakistan because the people resisted British rule, unlike the Bharatis (you mean people of all religious denomination of what is today's India)?

Please check up the statistics, who constituted the largest part of the British Indian Army and who got jagirs for loyalty. Fantastical resistance to the British I must say!

I will come back tomoprrow night since it is 0340 hours here.

Come on Salim, you know this doesn't prove a thing. Let's ignore the time period changes of the composition of the British Indian Army, just look at your logic. Just because a particular group of people, perhaps mercenaries volunteer or need work for an Army, does not mean they do not also have many people resisting that very same Army also.

The biggest resistance to British rule was from the tribals of course, who they could not conquer. The whole of the frontier resisted them. You know there's a Church built in Jhelum by the British to commemorate the local resistance of 1857, its place where Khaki Shah was hanged. Just because after around 1910, the British Indian Army changed into a Punjabi dominated Army, does not mean it was the Bharatis that initiated the conquer of the whole of the subcontinent. Before the 1900s, the British Indian Army was primarily composed of Bharatis, it was after this time that they started recruiting from Punjab and areas of Pakistan (martial race theory). The first period of 100 years when they went out conquering the subcontinent, it was predominantly an army of Bharatis. Read this article.

The British originally arrived in South Asia to trade in Tea, Tobacco, and Poppy, and formed the British East India Company which would eventually spearhead a colonial domination over South Asia. The shrinking Mughal Empire fell prey to the East India Company's conspiracies and the eventual collapse of the freedom struggle against the British by the Muslim leader Tipu Sultan from 1749 to 1799 left the remnants of the Mughal Empire completely vulnerable. The British did not gain strong footholds in the Pakistani region until the early 19th century and annexed the entire area during the Great Game rivalry with the Russian empire.

While the Anglo-Afghan wars for freedom continued well into the 20th century, the Indian War of Independence, dubbed "Sepoy Mutiny" by the British, in 1857 was the region's last major armed struggle against the British.

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Pakistan_-_History/id/5157259

 

[Neo]

Do you guys ever sleep...?
Just wondering...

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

You know me Neo.

 

[joey]

Muslim world lags behind in science for different reasons. Pakistan lags behind because of colonialism. It's already catching up.

CV Raman
JC Bose
Acharya Prafulla Chandra Roy
Srinivasa Iyengar Ramanujan
S Acharya
Subramanyan Chandrasekhar

Just to name a few who revolutionalized science in the colonial period, It was JC bose who invented Radio before Marconi, similarly Bose-Einstein effect aka BE effect was mainly Bose's theory however he tied up with Einstein to make give it publicity Bose's Proof of life in plant, CV Raman's famous Raman Effect, and lets not talk about the legend that was Ramanujan, all came into being in 19th century.

Science has been stagnant for over 50 years now and no major theory changing/path breaking discoveries has been made not in the same level of influence, what is being developed is technology, the end of developement of classical science has ended long back, we are developing technologies by applying them only. There is a difference between Science and Technology.

Thus it is baseless to state that it was colonialism that resulted in deludition of Science in Pakistan, fact is they have not invested in education in the scale needed after Pakistan came into being. Infact I dont know if Pakistan has a award in the name of Abdus Salam or not, but We do.

 

[Ababeel]

Promoting Scientific Innovation in the
Muslim World

By Athar Osama, Ph.D
Posted October 4, 2006

Scientific and technological research and innovation is not among the qualities that one may attribute to the countries in the Muslim World. Having missed the dawn of scientific age due to reasons beyond the scope of this article, the 50-odd countries of the Islamic world cut a sorry figure when stacked against the modern and advanced countries of the West or even, for that matter, the states of the former Soviet Union and the under-developed India or China.

Yet, science and technology remains the single most important factor that distinguishes the economic leaders and laggards of today.

Science and Technology—from the basic blue-sky research in universities and public and private laboratories to the applied research and development in leading corporations of the world—is the engine of economic growth.
Majority of Muslim countries—in North Africa, the Middle East, and Asia—continue to lag behind the rest of the developed world in the state of development and maturity of their scientific and technological infrastructures—a fact that translates into shocking disparities in the standards of living.

Scientific and Technological Innovation – Key to Economic Development
According to Economist Jeffery Sachs, the gulf between today’s rich and economically developed countries (mostly western Europe and North America) and poor and under-developed countries (that includes much of Asia, Middle East and Africa where majority of the Muslim countries lie) is a result of this years of lagging behind the pack.

For example, between 1820 and 1998, the per capita GDP of Western Europe and the United States-Canada grew at an average rate of 1.5 and 1.7% per annum respectively while Asia (excluding Japan) and Africa managed to only grow at 0.9 and 0.7% per annum respectively.

This seemingly minor difference in growth rates—compounded over one-and-a-half century—has resulted in dramatic consequences for these countries. While the per capita GDP in the Western Europe grew from $1,200 per person in 1820 to $30,000 in 1998, that in Africa only managed to grow from $400 in 1820 to $1,300 1998.

One of the main reasons why future transpired so differently for these set of countries is the latter’s inability to harness the tremendous force of science and technology for their social and economic development.

The Symptoms and Causes of the Disease
For decades now, Muslim countries have struggled with appreciating the value of scientific and technological research, and in many cases, have become blind consumers of western technology. They have failed to develop scientific and technological capacity and infrastructures which has in turn resulted in weak agricultural and industrial capabilities.

They have thus remained dependent on the West for not only the technical infrastructure (machinery, high-technology equipment, medicines etc.) but also high quality consumer and luxury goods—a fact that virtually guarantees them continued dependence and hence a lower status in the development ladder for years and years to come.

While a lot can be said about why this has been the case—from political, social, and religious perspectives—the lack of emphasis on human resources—obvious from low levels of literacy and human development, as outlined by the Arab Human Development Report of 2002.

Scientists and engineers from the Muslim world—individuals like Professor Abdus Salam of Pakistan, Dr. Ahmed Zewail from Egypt, and others—have made a name for their genius and hardwork as they left their own countries and worked in universities and research labs abroad. This “brain drain” of scientists and engineers continues to afflict the Muslim world today. Stopping this brain drain and reversing it may be key to harnessing scientific innovation for the benefit of societies in the Muslim world.

One of the most important factors that has afflicted the scientific and technological establishments in the Muslim world is a lack of appreciation and acknowledgement of their contribution to the society followed by application of scientific and technological knowledge thus created to the real development needs and problems within these countries. This lack of appreciation has often manifested itself in the absence of coherent science and technology policies that go beyond mere paper documents and are actually implemented and supported by the state, private, and academic sectors.
www.dinarstandard.com

 

[Ababeel]

State of Scientific and Technological Development in the Muslim World
Table-1 highlights the top-10 OIC member countries by one measure of scientific and technological productivity, namely, publication of research in established journals. Clearly, Turkey leads the pack with Egypt and Iran being distant second and third. Indonesia—the largest Muslim country (by population)— is notably absent in the top-10 most scientifically productive countries, as is Bangladesh—the third largest (by population). Pakistan, the second largest Muslim country, is only a distant eighth on this list of top-10 most productive countries.

Table 1: Top 10 Most Scientifically Productive Countries in the Muslim World*
Country 10-yr Publications Top Discipline
1. Turkey 82,407 Surgery
2. Egypt 27,723 Applied Mathematics
3. Iran 19,114 Chemistry
4. Saudi Arabia 17,472 Gen - Internal Medicine
5. Malaysia 10,674 Crystallography
6. Morocco 10,113 Physical Chemistry
7. Nigeria 9,105 Food Science & Technology
8. Pakistan 7,832 Plant Sciences
9. Jordan 6,384 Chemical Engineering
10. Kuwait 5,930 Gen - Internal Medicine


Source: COMSTECH
* As measured by publications frequency between 1995-2005

Table-2 highlights the institutional dimension of this lackluster performance. While the overall policy environment is set at the country-level, it is really the institutions where scientific and technological innovation takes place. Here the contrast is even starker than the earlier list. Of the 25 most scientifically productive institutions in the Muslim world, 10 are in Turkey, 5 in Egypt, and 3 in Malaysia. Of the top-10 institutions, 7 are in Turkey. Most notably absent from list are institutions in three of the largest Muslim countries, namely, Indonesia, Pakistan, and Bangladesh that account for about 40% of the population of entire Muslim world.

Table 1: Top 25 Most Productive Universities in the Muslim World*
University Country Publications**
1. University Hacettepe Turkey 8,979
2. University Istanbul Turkey 6,488
3. Ankara University Turkey 5,982
4. Cairo University Egypt 4,977
5. Kuwait University
Kuwait 4,495
6. King Saud University Saudi Arabia 4,336
7. Middle Eastern Technical U. Turkey 4,215
8. Gazi University Turkey 3,652
9. Istabul Technical U. Turkey 3,452
10. Ege University Turkey 3,336
11. King Fahd University Saudi Arabia 3,323
12. Ains Shams University Egypt 3,129
13. University Malaya Malaysia 2,862
14. National Research Center Egypt 2,651
15. Alexandria University Egypt 2,628
16. American University Beirut Lebanon 2,568
17. Ataturk University Turkey 2,535
18. United Arab Emirates U. UAE 2,478
19. Mansoura University Egypt 2,439
20. King Faisal Research Center Saudi Arabia 2,434
21. University Sains Malaysia Malaysia 2,402
22. Dokuz Eylul University Turkey 2,389
23. Uzbek Academy of Science Uzbekistan 2,169
24. Cukurova University Turkey 2,026
25. University of Tehran Iran 1,962


*Source: COMSTECH
** Ten-year Publication Rate (1995-2005)

These statistics alone are a grim reminder of the tremendous challenges faced by countries in the Muslim world as they seek to transform themselves from agriculture and natural resource dependent economies into innovative and knowledge societies of the 21st (or 22nd) century.

Doing so would require not only developing coherent and relevant science and technology policies across the Muslim world but also creating institutions that could provide the environment necessary for scientific and technological research. It would also require appreciating and recognizing the value of both science and technology as worthy disciplines—not only in letter but also in spirit—and then applying these to socio-economic problems in these countries. In return, it would also require a compact between the scientific community and the public-at-large that investment in science and technology would be returned through meaningful advancement in socio-economic goals.
www.dinarstandard.com

 

[Ababeel]

Silver Lining in the Clouds

Things have only recently begun to change. Increasingly, the Muslim countries in Middle East and Asia are waking up to the reality of the steep challenges that they face as they scramble to catch up with the rest of the world. A number of very hopeful initiatives have been launched with an explicit aim to narrow the innovation gap between the respective Muslim countries and the West. While these initiatives are in their preliminary stages—and hence their effects (or lack of) may not yet be evident—they point towards an unambiguous desire to break from the neglect of the past.

Pakistan’s Thrust into Higher Education

Pakistan’s newly formed Higher Education Commission (HEC) has since 2002 launched an aggressive scheme to grow the base of scientific and research manpower. This has resulted in a several thousand percent increase in budgetary allocation to the higher-education sector in Pakistan. A two pronged strategy has been adopted to achieve this purpose.

First, HEC has very aggressively pursued cooperative agreements with foreign governments, aid agencies, and foreign universities to provide opportunities to Pakistani students to pursue studies abroad and inviting Pakistani Diaspora to teach at local universities at home. Second, it has concurrently embarked upon an ambitious target of creating 5,000 new PhDs locally over the next five years.

While many questions are being raised about these initiatives from a policy-analytic standpoint—most notably, the ability of the country to ramp up the throughput of PhDs in such a dramatic fashion without sacrificing of quality, the ability of the country’s scientific establishment to absorb this sudden increase in research manpower, and issues of cost-effectiveness etc.—this recent thrust represents a major shift whose effects (or ill-effects) may only become apparent in the years and decades to come.

Qatar’s Unique Experiment in Higher Education
Qatar’s Education City—a 2500 acre campus on the outskirts of Doha—is the latest and one of the most unique educational experiments in the whole of the Muslim world. The Qatar Education City attempts to bring together—in a single university premises—some of the most reputed campuses from universities around the world. For example, the Education City currently hosts an engineering school from Texas A&M University, a business and computer science school from Carnegie Mellon University, a school of arts from Virginia Commonwealth University, a school of public service from Georgetown University, and a school of medicine from Cornell University.

When fully completed, this multi-billion dollar project would house a complete academic and innovation system with a Science and Technology Park, a public policy think tank, a library, residential and recreational facilities, and other paraphernalia that would form a unique innovative milieu in Qatar. This project alone, Qatar’s visionary leaders hope, would transform the Emirate into a regional—perhaps international—educational hub and a knowledge society in the 21st century.

Dubai’s Foray into Creating an Intellectual Culture

While Dubai and its leaders have long surprised the rest of the Muslim World—and the West—with their sincere-steadfast leadership and visionary policies that have transformed Dubai from a desert oasis to the center of finance and commerce in the Middle East and a bridge between the East and the West, the Dubai “Miracle” has often been seen with mild skepticism by many. One of the primary reasons for this has been the disproportionate use of expatriate workforce and the lack of a concurrent human development in the indigenous population of the Emirates. For many, therefore, the Dubai miracle lacked the legs necessary to stand on its own feet. That may have gradually begun to change.

Increasingly Dubai’s leaders are paying attention toward creating an intellectual and research culture in the Emirates that may although be driven by an essentially expatriate (or borrowed) workforce is not necessarily limited to it. Increasingly, Dubai is a favored venue for management and leadership conferences involving several hundred participants and leading government and business thinkers from the Western world and across the Emirates and the Middle East. While not substantive in themselves, these conferences create an opportunity for Dubai’s leaders and populace to interact with and benefit from western intellectual capital at a close proximity.

Other institutions that have only recently emerged on Dubai’s intellectual scene—and have already begun to make a mark—include Emirates Center for Strategic Studies and Research (ECSSR), Gulf Research Center (GRC), and Dubai-Harvard Foundation for Medical Research etc. Most recently, the Emirates launched the Dubai Economic Research Awards to promote economic research on Dubai’s socio-economic issues and is set to hold the 2007 Meeting of the Middle East Economic Association (MEEA). While these are small steps towards the creation of an indigenous intellectual culture in Dubai, they are nonetheless steps in the right direction.

Nigeria’s Planned Investment in Science
The Nigerian government recently announced the creation of a $5 billion endowment for setting up a science fund that would place scientific development at the heart of the Nigerian Economic Empowerment and Development Strategy (NEEDS). The planned investment, it is believed, is likely to translate into an economic growth of around 8-10 percent per year by 2020—up from the current 4 percent today. The project is being conceived and executed in collaboration with UNESCO under the latter’s Project for the Reform of Nigerian Science and Innovation System.

The project would be funded in part through the country’s oil revenues but also jointly with industry and multi-lateral institutions. While it is premature to say anything meaningful about this initiative, it clearly represents a departure for yet another Islamic country at the heart of the poverty and conflict-ridden continent of Africa that is likely to inspire other Muslim countries in the region to take a similar route.

Success = Thoughtful Policy + Clever Institutional Design + Seamless Implementation

These examples represent only a few of the more forward looking countries in the Muslim World and are chosen to highlight the diversity of what is beginning to happen. It is in fact quite possible that none of these initiatives may be able to fully achieve their ultimate objectives. They would, however, allow these countries to make definite strides towards the final objective and, in the mean time, generate considerable learning about what might and might not work in each of these unique socio-economic, political, and cultural environments.

Whether Pakistan is able to achieve its goal of producing 5000 high-quality PhDs in five years, Qatar manages to become a knowledge hub for the Middle East, Dubai is able to create an educated Emirate that transforms its overnight success in the corporate world into a more permanent and sustainable “developed” country, or whether Nigeria’s ambitious science-fund puts it into a higher development trajectory would depend upon the quality of policies, institutions, and implementation that is pursued in support of each of these initiatives.

Learning from hundreds of examples around the world and putting several decades of experience to ones advantage is a virtue that must never be overlooked. Success in developing a system that works would require more than throwing money at the problem which many, especially Middle Eastern countries, have tended to do in the past.

Carefully thinking about ones objectives—and asking the right questions before seeking answers--and the kinds of institutions and programs that would help achieve those objectives is critical before rushing into implementation as has sometimes been the case in the Muslim world. Finally, one must also develop a sense-and-respond capacity to continually measure and monitor progress and fine-tune and adapt policies and programs as results from these begin to emerge.

Only through an intelligent use of policy followed by patient implementation can the Muslim countries can lift themselves from the shackles of poverty and under-development and transform themselves from today’s scientific backwaters to equal participants and beneficiaries of the scientific age
www.dinarstandard.com

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Yet the Nobel Prize alludes!

Publications are no indicator of great strides.

Now, don't give the usual statement of yours!

Baghdadi, you are a Bangladsehi, but you write only of Pakistan and nothing about Bangladesh. Are you a Pakistan diplomat in Bangladesh and so use the Bangladesh flag to indicate your 'location'?

I, for one, believe Bangladesh has made great strides too. Let's hear of them too!

Is the above your post or is it from some publication. If from a publication, you should give the link or it is copyright infringement and the forum will get banjoed!

If it is from a publication, one should not pretend that it is one's own!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

What you are passing off as your own Baghdadi is:

Silver Lining in the Clouds

Things have only recently begun to change. Increasingly, the Muslim countries in Middle East and Asia are waking up to the reality of the steep challenges that they face as they scramble to catch up with the rest of the world. A number of very hopeful initiatives have been launched with an explicit aim to narrow the innovation gap between the respective Muslim countries and the West. While these initiatives are in their preliminary stages—and hence their effects (or lack of) may not yet be evident—they point towards an unambiguous desire to break from the neglect of the past.

Pakistan’s Thrust into Higher Education

Pakistan’s newly formed Higher Education Commission (HEC) has since 2002 launched an aggressive scheme to grow the base of scientific and research manpower. This has resulted in a several thousand percent increase in budgetary allocation to the higher-education sector in Pakistan. A two pronged strategy has been adopted to achieve this purpose.

First, HEC has very aggressively pursued cooperative agreements with foreign governments, aid agencies, and foreign universities to provide opportunities to Pakistani students to pursue studies abroad and inviting Pakistani Diaspora to teach at local universities at home. Second, it has concurrently embarked upon an ambitious target of creating 5,000 new PhDs locally over the next five years.

While many questions are being raised about these initiatives from a policy-analytic standpoint—most notably, the ability of the country to ramp up the throughput of PhDs in such a dramatic fashion without sacrificing of quality, the ability of the country’s scientific establishment to absorb this sudden increase in research manpower, and issues of cost-effectiveness etc.—this recent thrust represents a major shift whose effects (or ill-effects) may only become apparent in the years and decades to come.

More at (same as the posts of Baghdadi);

http://www.dinarstandard.com/current/Scientific100206.htm

 

[roadrunner]

CV Raman
JC Bose
Acharya Prafulla Chandra Roy
Srinivasa Iyengar Ramanujan
S Acharya
Subramanyan Chandrasekhar

Just to name a few who revolutionalized science in the colonial period, It was JC bose who invented Radio before Marconi, similarly Bose-Einstein effect aka BE effect was mainly Bose's theory however he tied up with Einstein to make give it publicity Bose's Proof of life in plant, CV Raman's famous Raman Effect, and lets not talk about the legend that was Ramanujan, all came into being in 19th century.

Science has been stagnant for over 50 years now and no major theory changing/path breaking discoveries has been made not in the same level of influence, what is being developed is technology, the end of developement of classical science has ended long back, we are developing technologies by applying them only. There is a difference between Science and Technology.

Thus it is baseless to state that it was colonialism that resulted in deludition of Science in Pakistan, fact is they have not invested in education in the scale needed after Pakistan came into being. Infact I dont know if Pakistan has a award in the name of Abdus Salam or not, but We do.

So it's gone from running away from the topic about colonialism to boasting about Indian academia! If you insist. Who is S Acharya, and what did he/she do? Arent you a bit desperate to pick out "S Acharya", when they've obviously contributed nothing. I will give you the first three, good mathematicians of their time, Chandrasekar too, even though he was born in Pakistan. But in a country with 1/6th of the world's population, to be able to produce only 4 mathematicians over 400 years is paltry. You have to remember, Bharat had access to better education and a better economy during colonial rule since they were rewarded for butt licking a bit more. Given that Pakistan's literacy was 7% during colonial rule, this was why they did not perform very well at the time. Now here is what you need to pay attention to. What has Bharat done SINCE colonial rule compared to Pakistan, when the literacy rates have increased. Pakistan has had its Nobel Prize Winner in Physics, in fact it forms the basis of some parts of modern quantum theory. One would expect that Bharat would have had 7 times as many Nobel Prize winners during the same time, perhaps more since they have had a headstart with the number of educational institutions that were built under colonial era. But no, it's just 2 or 4 at most. One could say why has Bharat not had more prize winners since Partition as Pakistan, relatively speaking. Is it Hinduism that is holding you back?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Roadrunner,

Are you aware that Lahore was one of the best seats of education in undivided India?

If the Nobel Prize was given statistically, then China would lead the world!

I love your far fetched and desperate posts to prove a point and which go nowhere!

Debate with logic not going too far out, please!

Logic is the anatomy of thought.

There are posters who used Zionists, imperialists, colonialist whenever they run out of facts as if they were some magic catch alls!

How can one debate with the irrational abstract?

 

[Adux]

Great God, You people have way too much patience.

 

[joey]

So it's gone from running away from the topic about colonialism to boasting about Indian academia!

I have never boasted about Indian Academia dont be a oversmart, its is indeed in a pitiful state, a new report has stated till now we have over 32000 schools without a single children in them. What I have said is merely colonialism being the benchmark of Scientific developements which is just a excuse of the respective leaders not doing enough in their respective countries to get the acts together.

If you insist. Who is S Acharya, and what did he/she do? Arent you a bit desperate to pick out "S Acharya", when they've obviously contributed nothing.

Forgot Quadractic Equation formulae?. He wasnt in 19th century so my mistake in that. Nevermind. Infact I made some other mistakes, It is SN Bose in the BE condensation and not JC Bose.

I will give you the first three, good mathematicians of their time, Chandrasekar too, even though he was born in Pakistan. But in a country with 1/6th of the world's population, to be able to produce only 4 mathematicians over 400 years is paltry.

All of the first three were not mathematicians.

You have to remember, Bharat had access to better education and a better economy during colonial rule since they were rewarded for butt licking a bit more. Given that Pakistan's literacy was 7% during colonial rule, this was why they did not perform very well at the time. Now here is what you need to pay attention to. What has Bharat done SINCE colonial rule compared to Pakistan, when the literacy rates have increased. Pakistan has had its Nobel Prize Winner in Physics, in fact it forms the basis of some parts of modern quantum theory. One would expect that Bharat would have had 7 times as many Nobel Prize winners during the same time, perhaps more since they have had a headstart with the number of educational institutions that were built under colonial era. But no, it's just 2 or 4 at most. One could say why has Bharat not had more prize winners since Partition as Pakistan, relatively speaking. Is it Hinduism that is holding you back?

Your religious bashing has plunged to new level perhaps it is your ethos who knows? , I feel sorry to have replied to you , should have known from my not so past experience.

Noble prizes means nothing absolutely nothing, today Indian scientific citation index is not that good because we dont produce the level of research which are followed abroad rather than we follow them, take the example of BE condensation, IIRC 4 or noble prizes were given out later on scholars who based their research on exactly BE condensation.

Most of the scientists did not have access to the so called better education which would have been the result for the discoveries, even if some did it did not what attributed to their discoveries specially different from the some other parts in the colonial period , My point is very simple,

1. Scientific developement cannot be blamed for colonialism because Classical Science as we know has ended in 19th century almost.

2. What we are seeing today is developement of technology, developement of technology does not requires to blame anyone rather than ones own system, developement of technology is followed by the need of the economy to do so, they are directly proportional to each other, Arabs havent gone the route because of their vast oilresources they havent felt the need to do it, Pakistan havent done that because their leaders have failed to implement it not failed as a whole but definitely not succesful when compared to many countries, US have done and are doing that that because they knows it is only way they can sustain their economy and keep oil producing countries from producing only oil.

 

[niaz]

Roadrunner,

Are you aware that Lahore was one of the best seats of education in undivided India?

If the Nobel Prize was given statistically, then China would lead the world!

I love your far fetched and desperate posts to prove a point and which go nowhere!

Debate with logic not going too far out, please!

Logic is the anatomy of thought.

There are posters who used Zionists, imperialists, colonialist whenever they run out of facts as if they were some magic catch alls!

How can one debate with the irrational abstract?

Universities get their status thru their academic staff. No doubt Punjab University, Lahore was one of the leading universities of pre partition days. I remember seeing the pictures of Dr Bhatnagar hanging in the Chemistry Department in 1961. Biology deparment was named after Dr Kayshap and buliding known as Kayshap Laboratories until then. ( Dont know what is the case now). There is no doubt that Muslims of India were a little late catching up with the modern Education. Except for a few muslims such as Dr Zia uddin ( Mathametics), Allama Iqbal ( Philosophy) and Justice Ameer Ali( Law), muslims lagged behind other Indian nationalities in learning. While Hindus such as CV Raman and Rabindra Nath Tagore were being awarded Noble Prizes, mullahs were issuing fatwas against Sir Syed Ahmad Khan for the foundation of Aligarh University.

Golden Age of the scientific achievements in Islam has been between 9th to the 12th century AD. At that time; while Euorpe was still in the Dark Ages; foremost scholars and scientists of the world were Muslim. To name a few:

Jaber bin Hayan - 8th/9th century - Chemistry
Al Razi - 8th/9th century - Medicine , Philosophy
Al Birouni - 10th/11th century - Chronicler,Innovator
Al Heitham - 11th century - Optics
Avecina - 11th century - Medicine, Philosophy
Omar Khayyam -11/12th century- Mathematic, Astronomy

It sad to say that majority of these were ( except Jaber, born in Kufa) from Iran. Chengez Khan invasion devastated Iran and it took 300 years to recover. His grandson Halaku ended the Baghdad Caliphate. Islam could never recover from this tragedy and muslims scholars were reduced to Court Poetry and re inventing history to please the monarchs. Scholarly activities became sole responsibility of the mullah. Mullahs closed the door of Ijtehad and anything which they could not understand was labelled as 'Kufr'.

This is true to this day. Education curriculum of most of the Madrassahs is based on syllabus of Dar ul Uloom Nizamia. A university established by Nizam ul Mulk ( Vezier of Malik Shah Saljuqi) in the 1067 in Baghdad. While it was state of the art in 11th century, it is 1000 years since and IMO it is a disgrace that Mullah found no reason to make any fundamental change in their curriculum in a millenium.

Ata Turk and Shah of Iran blamed the decline of the state Ummah on Islam. Islam that I believe in is a progressive religion, it is the mullahs who have made it retrogressive. Why does Muslim world lag behind in science ??. It is because of the mullah. In early Islam, there was no concept of priesthood as in Christianity; where have these bloodsucker mullahs come from??. Any one who disagrees with them, be it Sir Syed, Allama Iqbal, Quaid e Azam or Musharraf, all are labelled as Kafir.

Iqbal has correctly pointed out " Deeney mullah fi sabeelilah fassad