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Why does Muslim world get beaten up by the west?

Some gaps in your post.
Nobody allows or disallows the other to rise as a power. Those in power always like status quo and try their level best to deny it to others. Those without power always have to rise using their own means.
Nobody allowed China to rise as a power. Nobody allowed Soviet Union to rise as a power. They did it using their own strengths.
The insinuation about how Muslims are perceived' will result on whether Muslims are 'allowed to rise' as a power or not are fundamentally flawed.

What is the Muslim context of democracy? If you give Universal Adult Franchise with everyone a choice to run for any seat, then it becomes Western Democracy.

I am glad that you've noticed my post and critiqued it.

1. Your point about rise of powers is well-noted. It is certainly pertinent in my view, but relating to nation-state level, not a higher level. Europe, India, and even Russia has had a long and checkered relation with Muslim empires. The memories are not to be easily forgotten or ignored. In this context, unless there are certain assurances, there would be great resistance to collective rise of Islamic world. I hope that you can appreciate the nervousness such a prospect might cause especially when viewed in context of today's perception of Muslims. You might see my assertions as fundamentally flawed, but I think it is a matter of perspective.

2. I do believe that our world has changed fundamentally in the last century or more. The rise of nation-states, abolition of slavery, defeat of fascism and general approbation of it, and mass communication are irreversible trends. What used to be, can not be anymore. Everyone in this world of ours has a measure of equality and watches all others; just like me and you. This difference and break from past is very fundamental. With so much information and history at hand, it is possible to send right or wrong signals. This communication and feedback can not be ignored. I would be apprehensive of a monolithic Islamic block as such, if I did not know answers to some very important questions. And I am a Muslim, see?

3. About Muslim context of democracy, all I can do is point to Pakistan's constitution. There is a great deal of obfuscation about Islam and democracy already, and I would wish for a transition to be relatively painless. To clarify, can you imagine KSA becoming a democracy? It can and it can not. All depends on the context. I hope this case helps.
 
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Tribals (comparatively less civilized societies) get beaten up by superior societies. ALWAYS!

Has happened during Pharaohs, Caesars, Mogals, US, British and the list goes on and on.



It is not Islam vs. non-Muslim.

---- Read about Fukuzawa (Japanese philosopher from mid-19th century) and you will understand.


Why you all latch to wrong concepts.

sad to see your post.

This thread itself is the answer to the question. Being a Pakistani ones first and foremost concern should be Pakistan...but the person is concerned why "Muslims"....it is not just Muslims....it is the fate every poor country. Change your mindset and change your country first before thinking about others. Pakistan already has its fair share of troubles...This concern should come from people living in rich Islamic countries like Saudi, Brunei, Qatar etc.
 
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Human nature incorporated insatiable curiosity, not just on the physical world but on human nature itself.

The question is highly loaded with the supposed conflict between culture vs nature controversy when it should be understood that culture and biology (nature) are in a constant push-pull relationship. Science is a component of that relationship. Regardless of how some people's curiosity pulls them towards the 'hard' sciences and some towards the 'soft' versions, challenges to the current norms initiates the 'pull' of that relationship. Culture then should facilitate the 'push'. If a culture is cognizant of this relationship, however consciously or unconsciously, then we will have a scientifically and politically dynamic society. Organizations like DARPA, one that have a very narrow focus such as defense, cannot exist outside of this relationship. Greater scopes but similarly narrow minded industries such as semiconductor or medicine are no different. All of them cannot exist and prosper, in terms of intellectual contributions and financial profits, without the foundation of intellectual freedom that science needs.

If theories explains facts, then we already have an excellent theory of why some societies and cultures are more intellectually and scientifically vibrant than others based upon historical facts.

A good post as is expected from you sir.

I would like to draw your attention to 'Asian Tiger' economies. These have only recently begun to generate hard scientific knowledge via research and spending. They focused first on economic development via improvement in technological know-how and its application in industry etc... As their economies grew they started to spend on scientific research to complement their importation of technological knowledge from Western countries. Now they have been spending on hard scientific research.

The push-pull dynamic that you explained so well is subservient to economic development, in my view. One can not expect an outdated cultural view to hold against an overwhelming tide. Need for economic development dictates primacy of technological (and scientific) advancement. Social stability demands respect for cultural values. So in a given society, one has to find a balance. The point of balance would be different in different societies and economies. Competition between states would push the importance of economy in this dynamic, hence my observation above.
 
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Because Muslims are brainwashed and kept like slaves by their own clergy, political leaders and dictators. These three group of people in Islamic world are sold out and do not want to see Muslims advance in science, education and economics. Better education=these fake Sultans, shiekhs and Generals will fall like dominos.

We're long past that. Even if all those trouble makers were routed, the problems won't begin to go.
The day Muslims realise that they are not above each other or above non-Muslims, the day they learn to control their relentless ego, half the battle would be won.
 
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Chuk dummy -

Can you send me the picture of Bibi meeting Nazi activist? Or how about Obama meeting Benghazi attacker?

Where are those diplomatic meetings?

Please?

Yawn...... This conspiracy stuff is sooo boring. Go ahead and shoot everyone.
 
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There is no such thing as the muslim world. You fight more between eachother than you do others. It's like saying the Asian world will overtake the Western. Their is no unity, no commonality, so how can you call yourself a group?
 
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We're long past that. Even if all those trouble makers were routed, the problems won't begin to go.
The day Muslims realise that they are not above each other or above non-Muslims, the day they learn to control their relentless ego, half the battle would be won.

Actually, the path to progress will begin when they realize that there is no such thing as the 'Muslim world" as the title implies, and when they put their own country above all else by separating religion from affairs of the State.
 
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Actually, the path to progress will begin when they realize that there is no such thing as the 'Muslim world" as the title implies, and when they put their own country above all else by separating religion from affairs of the State.

There's no question about that, religion needs to stop defining what we do at a state level, it's bad enough if it's paraded around at a societal level. Some Muslims are predisposed to view other Muslims in better light and sympathise with them. But you're absolutely right, the so called Muslim world is a free-for-all.

Yawn...... This conspiracy stuff is sooo boring. Go ahead and shoot everyone.

No need to reply to this of crap matey. I got this.
 
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I am glad that you've noticed my post and critiqued it.
1. Your point about rise of powers is well-noted. It is certainly pertinent in my view, but relating to nation-state level, not a higher level. Europe, India, and even Russia has had a long and checkered relation with Muslim empires. The memories are not to be easily forgotten or ignored. In this context, unless there are certain assurances, there would be great resistance to collective rise of Islamic world. I hope that you can appreciate the nervousness such a prospect might cause especially when viewed in context of today's perception of Muslims. You might see my assertions as fundamentally flawed, but I think it is a matter of perspective.
India is incapable for the present moment to deny the rise of any power. Maybe with the course of action we have chosen, we achieve that capability after a few decades. The only 2 blocks that possess such capability are Western Block and Russian block, not even the Chinese because they control no critical resource(yet) which can not be duplicated by other nations.

So the question is - there will always be some who support the rise of a power and always some who would try to deny that power to others.

I give you a hypothetical example - even if all the Muslim countries in the world collectively gave a decision that a decade from now they would strive for collective jihad against the West, US would still not be able to prevent the growth and rise of this block for that decade. Their efforts will have a limited effect.

On the other hand, if the Muslim block became a full fledged democracy with equal rights to all and complete religious freedom(including that of conversion/apostasy), the Western world and Russia would be still have only limited capability to boost the rise of such a block as a power.

This is because of the changes in the last century(as you mention). The current global system of trade and flow allows for limited intervention with a strategic goal. If this block is to rise as a power, it must do so on its own back. No one will be able to stop it, their attempts at stopping would have a limited effect, similarly, no one would be able to ensure it either, their attempts at boosting would also have a limited effect.
2. I do believe that our world has changed fundamentally in the last century or more. The rise of nation-states, abolition of slavery, defeat of fascism and general approbation of it, and mass communication are irreversible trends. What used to be, can not be anymore. Everyone in this world of ours has a measure of equality and watches all others; just like me and you. This difference and break from past is very fundamental. With so much information and history at hand, it is possible to send right or wrong signals. This communication and feedback can not be ignored. I would be apprehensive of a monolithic Islamic block as such, if I did not know answers to some very important questions. And I am a Muslim, see?
Agreed.
3. About Muslim context of democracy, all I can do is point to Pakistan's constitution. There is a great deal of obfuscation about Islam and democracy already, and I would wish for a transition to be relatively painless. To clarify, can you imagine KSA becoming a democracy? It can and it can not. All depends on the context. I hope this case helps.
Yes, I can imagine KSA to become a democracy.
As people get prosperous, they demand certain rights. While those rights may be denied till the time only a small minority of people are well fed and comfortable, as the majority starts getting these benefits, the demand becomes harder and harder to resist.
An example - women in KSA, not just lobbying, but getting centuries old system changed and getting incremental rights. This is admittedly a slow process, may even take another century to complete, but eventually there will be democracy. The monarchy may continue as it does in Britain, but there is no stopping the wheel of evolution.

Let me at the outset add that Pakistan is a unique case. This is so because common Pakistani's are somewhat reluctant to believe that they are masters of their own destiny and their own land, they keep looking to Arab countries for guidance and inspiration. This is not just a simple case of Arab world being important to Islam, it is an acute issue in Pakistan. For example - Bangladesh, Turkey, Indonesia being as Muslim as Pakistan do not share this attribute with Pakistan. Iran as well, though that becomes a separate case altogether.

Well...the Pakistani discussion is pointless, it has a whole host of factors that would require a separate discussion.

My main point was a question - what per you is Democracy with Muslim context.

My thoughts are a little jumbled, so I request you to bear with me.

The day Muslims realise that they are not above each other or above non-Muslims, the day they learn to control their relentless ego, half the battle would be won.
I think you have just hit the proverbial nail on the head.
Acceptance of 'others'(Sect/ethnicity/religion) as equals, not just 'tolerance' will change everything for the Muslim world.
 
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I'm not sure what you are defining as "unity" in the West. If you are talking about between nations...well we bicker as much as everybody else does and we have had plenty of wars between each other to prove it. Just because there has been a gap of 70 years in fighting doesn't mean there is some sudden 180 degree turn in unity.

The West has had plenty of advancement before, during, and after these wars. So "unity" isn't it.

If you mean "unity" as members of one's nation...well everybody would love to say we all live in total harmony with each other but somebody is always displaced (but maybe not important enough to be a big factor). Not sure if that is it.

However one factor may be the ability to get results and be rewarded for it. By that I mean you have no fear that if you work hard some force beyond your control is going to step on you somehow. I don't know if that is connected to some corruption index or some trust in the government but if you know you have a good chance of seeing something to the end you may have more of an incentive to actually do it. If I know if I become successful I'll end up probably getting some kind of a shakedown along the line I'll probably either not bother doing it or do it in secret and be slower or limit myself in seeing it come to fruition.

So maybe it has to do with clearing unneeded/unwarranted hurdles that leads to things.
 
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1. Your point about rise of powers is well-noted. It is certainly pertinent in my view, but relating to nation-state level, not a higher level. Europe, India, and even Russia has had a long and checkered relation with Muslim empires. The memories are not to be easily forgotten or ignored. In this context, unless there are certain assurances, there would be great resistance to collective rise of Islamic world. I hope that you can appreciate the nervousness such a prospect might cause especially when viewed in context of today's perception of Muslims. You might see my assertions as fundamentally flawed, but I think it is a matter of perspective.
You assertions are not flawed, which implies an undisputed or at least non-credibly disputable truth, which really does not exist.

You are correct, or at least implied, that relationships inevitably produces perspectives and in the absence of mind readers, perceptions based upon perspectives, no matter how incomplete those perceptions may be, are all that we have, and actions and their consequences are products of those relationships.

At one point in Chemistry, if you do not speak German, you can expect to be excluded from that science. Not because the country called Germany or Germans themselves somehow managed to legally dominated Chemistry, but because there were so many outstanding German chemists contributed so significantly to that science that the culture in that science pulled its participants into learning/speaking German -- if one wants to learn and contribute to Chemistry in any significant way.

Go back further several hundred or even a thousand yrs. From 8th to 14th century, the Arabs so dominated science that Jews, Christians, and Persians had to learn Arabic and that propelled Arabic science to the fore for those centuries. Astronomy, physics, mathematics, medicine, and optics -- all had to by intellectual necessities be learned and written in Arabic.

But then the Muslims rejected Greek philosophy because Greek thoughts contradicted many perspectives and perceptions dictated by the Quran to believers. Rejection is a component of relationships, no matter how brief that relationship, even if the briefness is virtual and not physical.

For example, I reject communism not because Marxism was the only exposure I had but because I actually do have physical ties to Marxism and its political expression -- communism -- via my background as a child and an adult. Compare to today with the Soviet Union gone, very few in the West in the post Berlin Wall generation have any physical ties to Marxism and communism but they do have intellectual relationships with them via academia. Some are abhorred by Marxism and communism. Some are attracted to them. At one point in history, if you want to be taken seriously in the political science arena of Marxism, you better know how to speak Russian. Or Chinese for the Asians.

Is that rejection of Greek philosophy by the Muslims a part of that checkered past ? You bet. The consequences of that rejection are intellectually profound and continues to this day. Rejection is possible by the charge that an idea is 'un-Islamic' or have no basis in the Quran and the hadiths. Rejection is inevitable as long as one holds an idea to be undisputable and that idea is that the Quran contains all that one needs for life.

If the counter-argument is that the Quran is supposed to contains all the MORAL things for life, and not to be used for scientific discourses, then the counter-argument is shortsighted. Scientific thoughts, discoveries, and inventions do produces moral consequences. Tough moral choices are abundant for the consumers of science.

Take premarital sex, for example. Premarital sex exists for as long as there are moralities that say do constrains yourself, but it is largely frowned upon even by non-believers, at least because of the consequence -- pregnancy -- that is burdened only by one side -- the woman. Science then explained to us the details of the processes of conception and pregnancy, which inevitably gave us the means on how to prevent those processes in the first place, from the condom to the pill. The morality of premarital sex is now changed, probably forever.

Science do produces moral consequences and by that intrudes into the moral arena long dominated by religionists of all religions. As long as the Muslims continues to cling on to the idea that the Quran contains EVERYTHING MORALLY necessary, whether one is a Muslim or not, rejection based upon the Quran is equally inevitable as how science inevitably introduces moral quandaries.

This is not about nation-state relationships but about cultural ones.
 
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There's no question about that, religion needs to stop defining what we do at a state level, it's bad enough if it's paraded around at a societal level. Some Muslims are predisposed to view other Muslims in better light and sympathise with them. But you're absolutely right, the so called Muslim world is a free-for-all.

If religion needs to stop defining what we do at the State level, can you ever see a realistic chance for the Objectives Resolution to be repealed? Can you really imagine a Nazariya-e-Pakistan without Islam? If the answer to both these questions is "no", then we are stuck with it, and therefore will continue to be beaten up on the world stage.
 
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More images to follow:

It is good TO BE DIPLOMATIC - No country should be in isolation. AS LONG AS the other countries do not kill your people. Lets assume 9/11 was done by OBL and gung hu - In consqeence, how many people did America/EU/Israel kill?

Our $$$ elite was having smoke and $$$.

I still believe Imran Khan is not under influence of the west. HOWEVER, he should NOT have met the killers of the Muslim world.


Why is American killer meeting Muslim politicians and influencing?

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Daddy meeting children:

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Best buddies:

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Raza Bokhari:

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Habibi give me some more Jalibi:

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Americans capture Benghazi suspect. Did ANY MUSLIM COUNTRY CAPTURE MOSSAD/AMERICAN suspects? How about NATO suspects that kills innocent Afghanis during raids?

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Gotta respect the guy After all, my money is there:

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US secretly backs rebels to fight al-Qaeda in Syria
Sources tell Telegraph that America is backing 'friendly' rebels with millions in cash and non lethal aid to take on extremists in Syria

Link: US secretly backs rebels to fight al-Qaeda in Syria - Telegraph

How The CIA Helped Create Osama Bin Laden

Link: How The CIA Helped Create Osama Bin Laden | News One

It’s Official: US Funding Al Qaeda and Taliban


Link: It’s Official: US Funding Al Qaeda and Taliban | Veterans Today

It’s extremely ironic for the US State Department to be issuing travel alerts for US citizens in the Middle East and North Africa the same week we learn that the Pentagon is contracting with Al Qaeda and Taliban supporters to carry out Afghan reconstruction projects.

Tony Capaccio of Bloomberg News cites a quarterly report to Congress by Special Inspector for Afghan Reconstruction John Sopko.The report reveals Sopko asked the US Army Suspension and Disbarment office to cancel 43 contracts to known Al Qaeda and Taliban supporters. They refused. The reason? The Suspension and Disbarment Office claims it would violate Al Qaeda and Taliban “due process rights.”

Habibi how much more $$$ do you need?

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We are brothers. We want democracy. Sissy I am with you:

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Yup thats true that some of our leaders are *** clowns who can sell even their mothers to the enemies. But one thing is for sure the beating we have given to this Great US of A in Afghanistan they will always remember that! And talking abt totally out maneuvering your enemy completely the most mesmerizing thing is we used their own money to slay them !!

They came here to Denuclearize us and balkanize us, but are leaving with nothing in their hands!

After USSR this has been the most satisfying time in our history.
 
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So are you saying those Germanic tribes are the same as MODERN DAY GERMANY?
hahahah. Oh Bholay badshaho, meray bhai, meray piyaray
your answers are outdated and thus not 100% applicable.

Obviously you have no idea what I was saying. By the way where did I mention Germany in my post?
Enlighten me please :D
 
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- Called muslims but our actions are not Islamic
- No unity internal fights
- low education
- Corrupt politicians and corrupt society
- Still slaves in our thought
 
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