Why do we fear Secularism?

[nightcrawler]

I had this thread topic all over my mind lately & the discussions of sir niaz are quiet similar that what I was going to say...that secularism will create chaos & will eventually eliminate the cultural norms (that I least care) but pose an ultimate threat to religious norms (that I most care).
Joe Shearer isn't giving a particular answer to this problem as far as I have seen!!
Look secularism in its 100% form is giving what; look around & just think. Its giving young people a chance to be a pornstar, to wear biknis & be a nude model or something. I know this is extreme but it's bound to occur in secularism because state don't give a shittttt of what you do in your personal life & here the problem starts.
I am also opposed to theocracy but not a friend of secularism either, I had replied elsewhere that we are not supposed to follow any existing models we can have indigenous governing system ( a separate thread!! )
Joe don't involve your personal experiences; don't quote whats happening but think what can happen if Pakistan be a pure secular state for too much freedom equals anarchy

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dear Sir,

I had this thread topic all over my mind lately & the discussions of sir niaz are quiet similar that what I was going to say...that secularism will create chaos & will eventually eliminate the cultural norms (that I least care) but pose an ultimate threat to religious norms (that I most care).
Joe Shearer isn't giving a particular answer to this problem as far as I have seen!!

Of course i am not giving a particular answer to this problem. It is not my problem, what right do I have to tell you how to solve it? i can hint at the solution, make suggestive remarks, but come right down to telling Pakistanis how to run Pakistan?

Not a chance.

Please be sure that you will finally run it the way you want, not the way others want you to. And that is how it should be. We can talk about things here, but there is a line which I would rather not cross.

Look secularism in its 100% form is giving what; look around & just think. Its giving young people a chance to be a pornstar, to wear biknis & be a nude model or something. I know this is extreme but it's bound to occur in secularism because state don't give a shittttt of what you do in your personal life & here the problem starts.
I am also opposed to theocracy but not a friend of secularism either, I had replied elsewhere that we are not supposed to follow any existing models we can have indigenous governing system ( a separate thread!! )
Joe don't involve your personal experiences;

You have a point in telling me not to involve my personal experiences. To justify what I did, may I cite a poem cited by someone you admire to explain the situation?

Main sar be sajda hua kabhi to zamein se aney lagey sadaa,
Tera dil to hai sanam ashna tujha kiya miley ga namaz mein.

When I act, my mind and my heart are in harmony; I don't profess one thing, for instance in this forum, for effect, to score points, to make somebody look foolish, and do another in real life. That is what I was trying to say, not to make my personal life the topic of discussion. I hope you understand.

don't quote whats happening but think what can happen if Pakistan be a pure secular state for too much freedom equals anarchy

I could answer with a witty question, but hope that you meant your last line seriously.

If you are asking me, and please be sure that I answer only because there is an implicit question there, I think a secular Pakistan will become a tolerant Pakistan. There will be less talk of killing; there will be fewer avatars showing violence; there will be fewer TV talk shows where we hear the term wajib-ul-qatl; there will be no organisations hunting down those belonging to another sect; there will be no vandalisation of other people's places of worship, even of other people within the Muslim community. There will be fewer fiery speeches inciting young men to go and kill the enemies of God. There will be more peace and less heightened tensions within your society.

All in all, better than what increasing religious interference in society has achieved in 63 years.

Too much freedom equals anarchy, you said; I believe that the problem is of too little freedom. I am willing to explain in detail if you wish.

I think a few ****-stars are a small price to pay, considering what you gain instead.

Only because you asked.

Sincerely,

 

[nightcrawler]

I think a few ****-stars are a small price to pay, considering what you gain instead.

You got quiet a time to write lengthy replies, without giving attention to the major problem indicated in my previous reply.
I stated the most perilous & heinous dangers in following secularism as it is & you wrote the only sentence about it as above with a major mistake of writing 'few' & writing this only sentence in the end
Yes I am angry with your reply as this price we are not going to pay; because it ain't 'small' & will not be controllable once it starts. You will see the amateur Pakistani clips everywhere on net; scandals of our sisters & much the same as of west. This surely wil propagate & I am sorry to accept such a penalty for such a system that we have not created.

You have a point in telling me not to involve my personal experiences. To justify what I did, may I cite a poem cited by someone you admire to explain the situation?

Main sar be sajda hua kabhi to zamein se aney lagey sadaa,
Tera dil to hai sanam ashna tujha kiya miley ga namaz mein.

The situation isn't right ok I accept but is secularism is solution that I not accept & by the way I also admire the late Israr Ahmed & he was simply against this secularism concept!!

If you are asking me, and please be sure that I answer only because there is an implicit question there, I think a secular Pakistan will become a tolerant Pakistan

Sorry Islam is a tolerant religion; it may be intolerant because of its followers/preachers alike but in any case you can't blame the BMW car if is driven by a lunatic donkey cart driver
Whole of the ottoman empire proves my point & if you but know it was the intolerant Egyptian Muslim who played havoc upon the church in Damascus which sow the seeds of crusaders but before him & after him Muslims/Christians & Jews lived in harmony
Islam Empire of Faith - part 1.rmvb
Islam Empire of Faith - part 2.rmvb

Of course i am not giving a particular answer to this problem. It is not my problem, what right do I have to tell you how to solve it?

Much appreciated

 

[Old School]

you can't blame the BMW car if is driven by a lunatic donkey cart driver
:

This is over simplification which should be avoided. In the eyes of devil's advocate the following questions will arise :
What if only lunatics and donkeys can get their hands on the driving licence strictly ?
or
If there is a manufacturing error ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dear Sir,

I see the problem now. You and I don't agree. Now what are we to do?

You got quiet a time to write lengthy replies,

Really, it is for you to decide how to respond, to appreciate that I spend time on what you write, or to demand that I write what you like.

As I have said about other things, I will say about this: your answer is what you select to answer, and nobody else can dictate it.

without giving attention to the major problem indicated in my previous reply.
I stated the most perilous & heinous dangers in following secularism as it is & you wrote the only sentence about it as above with a major mistake of writing 'few' & writing this only sentence in the end

Just as I respect your right to state your views, you should respect the right of others to state their views in turn. What you read is what I think. What did you expect? That I should be hypocritical and write what you want to read? Really?

What exactly is the point of getting angry?

Will you change my mind? Or will you get your objectives?

Yes I am angry with your reply as this price we are not going to pay; because it ain't 'small' & will not be controllable once it starts. You will see the amateur Pakistani clips everywhere on net; scandals of our sisters & much the same as of west. This surely wil propagate & I am sorry to accept such a penalty for such a system that we have not created.

1. Please be angry or not as you please, and let me think what I please; that way we will both be happy. If that is not acceptable, and only one of us can be happy, I prefer I should be the one to be happy.

2. You don't want to pay the price, don't pay the price, that is your wish. It is Pakistanis who run Pakistan.

3. will not be controllable once it starts. You will see the amateur Pakistani clips everywhere on net; scandals of our sisters

What on earth are you saying? Either it has not started or it has started. It can't be both.

Secondly, have you seen any clips yourself? Or are you talking about what others have told you?

4. This surely wil propagate & I am sorry to accept such a penalty for such a system that we have not created.

This is most interesting. And who, in your opinion, has created the system?

The situation isn't right ok I accept but is secularism is solution that I not accept & by the way I also admire the late Israr Ahmed & he was simply against this secularism concept!!

That may explain a lot.

Yes, secularism is the solution in general; if you don't accept it, why, then the matter is decided. Then why are you asking others their opinions, when you don't wish to listen to them? That is not very polite, is it?

Whether it is a solution for Pakistan or not, you decide. Don't ask me. I'm not Pakistani, I don't decide for Pakistan. It's as simple as that.

About Israr Ahmed, I have no comment. I don't know enough about him.

Sorry Islam is a tolerant religion; it may be intolerant because of its followers/preachers alike but in any case you can't blame the BMW car if is driven by a lunatic donkey cart driver

I think you have proved your point. Very effectively.

Whole of the ottoman empire proves my point & if you but know it was the intolerant Egyptian Muslim who played havoc upon the church in Damascus which sow the seeds of crusaders but before him & after him Muslims/Christians & Jews lived in harmony
Islam Empire of Faith - part 1.rmvb
Islam Empire of Faith - part 2.rmvb

Are you a student of history, or are you a student of logic? That will determine my answer; since at this moment, I am not sure which is your strong area.

Much appreciated

I am glad that you appreciate this. Let us say that it is your pleasure, entirely.

Sincerely,

 

[Joe Shearer]

This is over simplification which should be avoided. In the eyes of devil's advocate the following questions will arise :
What if only lunatics and donkeys can get their hands on the driving licence strictly ?
or
If there is a manufacturing error ?

Dear Sir,

I think you are being unkind. That is selfish; others should have their turn as well.

You should read the whole passage, and the sense, and otherwise, will both become quite clear.

Sincerely,

 

[nightcrawler]

@Joe Shearer

What exactly is the point of getting angry?

Will you change my mind? Or will you get your objectives?

Angry because you have said something ( porno ) quiet heinous to us as Muslims & as Pakistanis in a very very simple & a dumb-founded way

3. will not be controllable once it starts. You will see the amateur Pakistani clips everywhere on net; scandals of our sisters

What on earth are you saying? Either it has not started or it has started. It can't be both.

Secondly, have you seen any clips yourself? Or are you talking about what others have told you?

I will rather not troll away from the topic but I must say that I haven't found any Pakistani clips but Indian via there secularism are quiet flourishing in that way plz don't mind. I am not sarcastic but you urself google around!!

Like I already have told you secularism underestimates any cultural/religious norms & can be proved by Indians alone. Their media; garments; portrayed in the music & film industry are way away from decency perimeters.

1. Please be angry or not as you please, and let me think what I please; that way we will both be happy. If that is not acceptable, and only one of us can be happy, I prefer I should be the one to be happy.

I am quiet happy & will be happy if this porno virus don't cross Indian boundaries into Pakistan. Indians quiet expert in advertising will in the near future ( like secularist USA ) will put this virus into capitalistic usage & you will be happy seeing booming economy of your country

Are you a student of history, or are you a student of logic? That will determine my answer; since at this moment, I am not sure which is your strong area

.

You can try me in either way. its your call!!


Plz you may find me out of subject & into some extreme language but something has to be clearly understood

Secularism is a foe to human beings
try to prove it otherwise historically or logically

 

[vsdoc]

What a waste of a perfectly good thread man.

Pakistani secularism vs Indian pornstars.

A zero sum game apparently .....

Cheers, Doc

 

[Joe Shearer]

Dear Sir,

@Joe Shearer



Angry because you have said something ( porno ) quiet heinous to us as Muslims & as Pakistanis in a very very simple & a dumb-founded way

I beg your pardon!

Please read your own post no. 62. The question of **** was raised by you, and it was on your mind, not mine. Nobody mentioned it before.

You should think about what you have done; raised an objectionable topic and then taken objection to it yourself. That is like firing a gun at your neighbour and getting angry that there have been guns fired.

I will rather not troll away from the topic but I must say that I haven't found any Pakistani clips but Indian via there secularism are quiet flourishing in that way plz don't mind. I am not sarcastic but you urself google around!!

I don't need to 'google around' when I have a very reliable witness right here at hand - you.

If, my dear Sir, you have found no Pakistani clips, why did you write what you did in the extract below?

You will see the amateur Pakistani clips everywhere on net; scandals of our sisters & much the same as of west.


That is from your post no.64.

Tell me honestly and frankly: do you read your own posts before writing new ones?

Like I already have told you secularism underestimates any cultural/religious norms & can be proved by Indians alone. Their media; garments; portrayed in the music & film industry are way away from decency perimeters.

Ah! I see the problem.

It must be a severe trial to you, to be dragged out of your contemplation and quiet moments, and forced to open your eyes, and watch Indian media; garments and the music and film industry. What difficult people you have around you, to be sure, compelling you to go through these distasteful experiences when all you ever wanted to do was to curl up with a good book! Shameful!

I am quiet happy & will be happy if this porno virus don't cross Indian boundaries into Pakistan. Indians quiet expert in advertising will in the near future ( like secularist USA ) will put this virus into capitalistic usage & you will be happy seeing booming economy of your country

Did you watch all this stressful indecent stuff in India then?

.

You can try me in either way. its your call!!

No, I would rather not try you; one of us is doing all the work already, any additional effort would be superfluous.

Plz you may find me out of subject & into some extreme language but something has to be clearly understood

Secularism is a foe to human beings
try to prove it otherwise historically or logically

Dear Sir, I pass. When your fellow-countrymen (and women) ask you, tell them your views. I will prove it historically and logically to my own countrymen and women. Unfortunately these wretched creatures don't want to listen to these words of wisdom from me; they are bored at the thought of discussing what is already a settled matter. I am desolate, as you will well understand. It is very unfeeling of them.

Sincerely,

'Joe S.'

PS: I just wanted to mention how much I have relished this discussion. It is so uplifting and makes me happier than you can imagine.

 

[haviZsultan]

I had this thread topic all over my mind lately & the discussions of sir niaz are quiet similar that what I was going to say...that secularism will create chaos & will eventually eliminate the cultural norms (that I least care) but pose an ultimate threat to religious norms (that I most care).
Joe Shearer isn't giving a particular answer to this problem as far as I have seen!!
Look secularism in its 100% form is giving what; look around & just think. Its giving young people a chance to be a pornstar, to wear biknis & be a nude model or something. I know this is extreme but it's bound to occur in secularism because state don't give a shittttt of what you do in your personal life & here the problem starts.
I am also opposed to theocracy but not a friend of secularism either, I had replied elsewhere that we are not supposed to follow any existing models we can have indigenous governing system ( a separate thread!! )
Joe don't involve your personal experiences; don't quote whats happening but think what can happen if Pakistan be a pure secular state for too much freedom equals anarchy

We are not talking about Secularism in the form of giving people right to wear bikinis in public, nude model or become a **** star. With 95% Muslims this secularism will inevitably be in favor of Islamic customs and ideology. What you are looking at is western alien culture and fearing for no reason. That kind of thing is not what I am promoting. Islam will be foremost even in a secular environment.

The fact is the word "secularism" has somewhat been stained by countries that have totally failed to be secular claiming it. Perhaps this causes fear amongst Pakistanis. Turkey that has suppressed Islam in many ways b8 calls itself secular. India is a prime example that has displayed unfortunate behavior when it did not punish Tytler and other politicians responsible for Sikh genocide in 1984, Thakaray and his shiv sena responsible for the Babri incident and of course Modi responsible for Gujarat. This has ruined the reputation however Islamic societies can thrive under secular ideology. They do not make a big fuss out of religion and make it a personal issue.

Islam will forever be ingrained in our hearts and nothing can divide it from us. We do not need a non-existant so called 'Islamic Republic' ruled by corrupt politicians and crooks who make a joke out of our religion. A state that cannot even say no when it is about our honor.

The fact is the Pakistani state is spending money, resources and a great deal of time (all of which we lack) on religious quarrels, sects (hanafi, deobandi, barelvi, sufi etc) promoting one Islamic ideal over another (once we promoted hanafi Islam while today Yousuf Raza Gillani has stated Sufism will be promoted in order to tackle terrorism and now ahmed raza from karachi reports sufi shrines are getting money from the govt.) at one time and another at another time.

We are concentrating on minor issues and things that are personal. Things we can avoid. This infighting makes Islam weak and Pakistan weak. There is currently a dispute going on between Shia and Sunni. There are protests going on in Karachi in support of Jundallah a terrorist organization which wages war on Iran (an Islamic state) on basis it is shia and was recently involved in attack on a procession in Karachi which killed innocent people shias and sunnis alike. Whats the point? Its useless.

We are just promoting strife and differences between each other not true Islamic principles at all as stated in the article. Islam will not spread by forcing our will on someone but by the principles of freedom, justice and equality as the Prophet stated and as Quaid E Azam stated because if we are right inevitably we have nothing to fear. Take a look at the beautiful example of Hazrat Ali.

And just think how much Islam is followed even while we are an Islamic Republic. A woman is gang raped and she is put in jail for Zinah. A man tries to build a health care unit, education and other facilities in Karachi as Zakat and help to the poor and he is arrested on charges of Blasphemy to the blessed Rasool. Another man tries to expose the wrong doings of a corrupt government official and his hands are cut off and he is found in dirt decomposed in Karachi. When we can promote justice, law, order, peace and have something in the way of national honour perhaps then we would be a dignified Islamic Republic. But now?

Is there any point in going on like this or is it better to just call ourselves secular considering how we bring the religion down? I am not an enemy of Islam to suggest secularism. I love my religion too but it is better not to make joke of Islam.

Its just bharam now ke oh ham Islami Riyasat hain. Hum nahi hai Islami riyasat. Hum Islam ki betbi kar rahey hai. We're just emotional about Islam nothing else and emotions cannot run a country.

 

[toxic_pus]

Of all the arguments against secularism that I have heard so far, rise of **** stars as an inevitable fall out of secularism, has to take the cake. It reminds me of a famous quote by Frank Zappa, the famous musician.

'Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.'

Things you learn everyday.

 

[haviZsultan]

At the same time Pakistani public would want some decency in the society to remain. For example no one would want it to be legal for unmarried boy and girl to openly live together or homosexual marriage allowed.

The fact is there may be laws to discourage this but the parties that take place in Lahore, Karachi & Rawalpindi still go on and might be going on this instant... despite the fact we are an Islamic Republic. Its happening anyway? So whats changed? Except we are bringing the name of Islam crashing down on our heads with our actions at the same time?

Until laws are enforced there is no point and until the rich and corrupt can get through them without punishment while the innocent are trapped by them...

Let me tell you something that happened in Islamabad a few years back. A hijaban committed adultery... errr she slept with her boyfriend. Everyone knew her and her actions became famous... and she acted all nice achi bachi at home and went out wearing the Hijab...

Point being? She brought the reputation of the Hijab down. If some people are in the west I am sure they know these kind of Hijabans. Now the reputation is "Hijaban are like that". This same moral can apply to Pakistan as a nation. There are rules. Rules no one follows. Islam exists but in name.

I am not against Islam or Islamic Republic that can live up to its name. I am against the attitudes that have pervaded our society and infighting over small tiny issues that waste our time. The lack of unity, laws like the hudood and blasphemy... pathetic though they are.

I am therefore for abolishing Blasphemy laws, Huddood Ordinace and Shariat Courts, but not in favour of turning Pakistan into a secular state. If this makes me old fashioned and conservative, so what?

I agree. In this article I do not talk about secularism as defined in the western scheme of things. Perhaps this explains the negative view of it and the horror it leaves on the face of many people when I talk about it for Pakistan.

With 95% very pious Muslims in the country Islam will still be the major force even in a secular environment. But it will just deal with the issues that have made religion such a basis for everything that happens and has become a tool for bad people to use. And by the way even Turkey where they are much less conservative has not allowed homosexual marriage so I don't see it ever happening in Pakistan.

Pakistan will still be ruled by Islamic ideology despite a secular environment where the government declares itself to have nothing to do with a persons personal life and religion unless they hurt someone else ofcourse ie so if some of u manage to see some nude bathers or girls in bikinis at Sea View u can call the police rather than ogle them?

Deal?

The basic moral whether secular or not is that there is an urgent need to ensure equality for all Pakistanis regardless of ethnicity, race or religion, personal freedom and respect enough to follow what one pleases unless in the end does not hurt the sentiments of others, and of course the most important the guarantee of justice to every individual.

I respect ur post. Thumbs up brother!

I am not Anti Islamic guys. I have been defending Islamic and national interest for 3 years now. Its a suggestion. We are spending too much time money and resources on theocracy and religion Secularism may be an answer to many of our problems in my view. Muslims will always have a strong effect on even a constitutionally Secular Pakistan. Believe me. Islam is something within us. No government or title such as Islamic Republic can affect us. Its something that's within.

Peace out!

Havi Zayed
Pakistan Nationalist Association.

 

[nightcrawler]

@dimension117

your posts seemed to be very sincere to your country.

However there are somethings that I would need clarification
In both of your last posts you clealr said that Islam can't be taken out from Pakistani hearts & the secularism if adobted will be heavily influence by Islamic ideologies. Though you may be right temporarily but not in the long run.
Having adapted secularism yes the clash of religions & sects will be ousted & one will see immediate good-will of secularism but what after that. If you look at secularism history like I had pointed out; it was an outcome of the scientific people struggling to oust the false norms of church & make people know the truth & the facts; so secularism did had a noble theme but when the time passed people apart from down-playing -ive aspects of church also negated its +ive aspects. Then the slogans upheld 'Religion out of my bed...'

You said Turkey against homosexuality; tell me when did USA allowed this disease legal Ummmm!! tell me didn't USA opposed this beforehand. I tell you USA opposed it for quiet a long time even oppressed the infidels physically, even USA didn't till 1960s allowed the adult film industry legal but secularism was to take its toll & it did!!
Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire

Islam or any other religion is to be under-estimated by secularism & history proves that .
You have given following example

Let me tell you something that happened in Islamabad a few years back. A hijaban committed adultery... errr she slept with her boyfriend. Everyone knew her and her actions became famous... and she acted all nice achi bachi at home and went out wearing the Hijab..

The fact is the Pakistani state is spending money, resources and a great deal of time (all of which we lack) on religious quarrels, sects (hanafi, deobandi, barelvi, sufi etc) promoting one Islamic ideal over another (once we promoted hanafi Islam while today Yousuf Raza Gillani has stated Sufism will be promoted in order to tackle terrorism and now ahmed raza from karachi reports sufi shrines are getting money from the govt.) at one time and another at another time.

Answer to these & related examples is simple Islam in its true form doesn't allow any of these acts
Answer again is

Sorry Islam is a tolerant religion; it may be intolerant because of its followers/preachers alike but in any case you can't blame the BMW car if is driven by a lunatic donkey cart driver

The basic moral whether secular or not is that there is an urgent need to ensure equality for all Pakistanis regardless of ethnicity, race or religion, personal freedom and respect enough to follow what one pleases unless in the end does not hurt the sentiments of others, and of course the most important the guarantee of justice to every individual.

Islam gives it all!!


Finally I will say try not to follow in the satanic footsteps for you can't leech-out a drop of good from evil means